Thank god it didn't go into production. Are we sure this isn't a power rangers villain?the antithesis said:There was a She-hulk movie in the works back in the 90's when Marvel made crap like the Dolph Lundgren Punisher flick. Some test photos of Brigitte Nielsen in the costume is as far as it got.
The Big Picture: She-Hulk Shaming
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Nothing about Goyer's comment about 'Do you know who Martian Manhunter is? And have you had sex?' That was the part that pissed me off. Just more 'cramming the nerd stereotypes in'...
Again, the double standard of sexual freedom. if a man does it, we typically root for him, if a women does it, she gets insults. the whole "slut-hulk" thing is part of that sadlyArqus_Zed said:
Also very sad, the fact that one of the key writers for DC comic movies has no clue about the media and pisses on his audience. might as well get the bomb shelter ready for the inevitable flareup around Batman v. Superman
It's kind of the aquaman case, where everyone assumes he's that dorky "This looks like a job for Aquaman" interpretation from the Super Friends where he can talk to fish. Apparently he's been bench pressing whales for awhile in the comics now, but people always remember the Super Friends one, because human beings like to take sterotypes of people as what they really are. It's why Batman was remembered as Bat "shark repellant" man before he started getting his movies.lazinesslord said:
And this begs the question, why is this so called "comic guru" showing the same level of understanding of a comic character as someone who doesn't read comics and goes off sterotypes?
Never knew that piece about She-Hulk's comic being self-aware and basically doing Deadpool's schtick before he was doing it. Very interesting.
I think more people knew about Martian Manhunter and his story from the Justice League cartoons and so it was less of a reason to do an episode on him. Also, Goyer's comment there has a very obvious conclusion: someone please staple his mouth before it gets worseCelestDaer said:
the biggest problem would be the character design. A actress who is sufficiently tall, attractive, and buff, would be quite the difficult task for the casting director. I think going full CG would be a mistake. It works for the Hulk, but he's a monster; she hulk has to hang out with normal people, would look weird in CG.
Arqus_Zed said:
They address that in her book, actually...
Allow me to tackle this one.hentropy said:
Bob didn't cover HALF of the reasons She-Hulk is considered an extremely progressive, feminist comic book icon.
For starters, her self-awareness of comic book sexism was also SUBVERTED time and time again, pointing out the double-standards in comics (an example of which I posted above), all while channeling her attractiveness (despite being 7 foot tall and green) into something empowering.
It was, as one female writer stated, a power fantasy for women MORE than a sexual fantasy for boys. Here was a girl in comics that was considered highly intelligent, a self-made career woman and THE best lawyer on the block (sorry Daredevil), all asserting herself in a way that allowed her to seize and OWN her own power and sexuality like few other comic book characters had. To be both beautiful and also to be fearless, to be liberated from shame and ridicule, to feel safe crossing the street at night, to know that nobody would threaten or sexually harass you because they know you'd BREAK them if they so much as wolf-whistled in your direction.
But it also created a character largely known for her wit, intelligence, and humor, as THE funniest character in comics until Deadpool started copying the act SHE started. She was sexy, yes, but readers like myself read her book because she was a legitimately fantastic character that never failed to deliver a dry retort to a bizarre villain or to shrug of a nonsensical crossover with Howard the Duck. Bob mentioned her early books had C-list villains, but that served to add to the charm and, in the follow-up Sensational line, she got her own self-appointed arch-nemesis, Titania, who's only desire was to be She-Hulk's ultimate rival.
Beyond that, while she was attractive, even that was a-typical. Bob didn't talk about it, but one of David Goyer's rather questionable comments was he felt She-Hulk was "chunky" rather than typically sexy (which may explain the casting of Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman... I can't BELIEVE that guy is writing Wonder Woman's first live-action theatrical debut...). She towered over most of the male heroes like Iron Man and Captain America. Her body was HARD instead of soft and muscular instead of thin. While her original run had her shredding her clothes when she hulked out (just like Hulk himself), over time she adopted various form-fitting uniforms and, quite recently, simple casual clothes and athletic gear. She'll wear a bikini to the beach, but she's not showing off her goods in battle (and even then, if any heroine has the right to, it's the one with indestructible skin).
Couple that with insanely progressive relationships (her main love interest was a guy more than okay with a girlfriend that could crush him, but he treated her like she was a normal girl regardless), and legitimately insightful explorations of her own balance of heroics, an active money-make job, a love life, a social life, and coping with societal standards that are outdated and unfair, tackling them all head on, and you have a very well-developed, fully-realized heroine in Marvel's library, and quite literally the OPPOSITE of everything David Goyer and co. claimed she was (especially existing for the Hulk to sleep with... since they're COUSINS...). She was popular enough with women that she even has her own female-orientated romance novel with women as the target audience.
My vote goes towards Gina Carano.Robot-Jesus said:
MMA fighter, former American Gladiator, built like a mack truck, tall, muscular, curvy, sexy, does all her own movie stunts and fight scenes, has acting experience in several high-budget movies, and looks great in a dress or in street clothes. She was widely favored to play Wonder Woman (she was even dating Henry Cavill at the time), but Warner Bros went with a much thinner, smaller girl instead... so I think Marvel should capitalize on that oversight for their universe instead.
Other than that, yeah, Marvel, get us a She-Hulk film. She's well overdue and she'd be an utter delight in the right director's hands.
That's all very interesting, she might be a great character, I just don't see how she's a "feminist icon" as Bob claims.Robot-Jesus said:
It just seems like an American artist creates a muscular beauty model and has her wear little clothing, and by your description is at least a little promiscuous, but because she's green and beats up villains she's a "feminist idol."
Meanwhile a Japanese artist increases boob size a bit (sometimes a lot) but is otherwise quite similar, and suddenly it's a hilarious sexist punchline. Those wacky Japanese and their backwards sexism!
Is it just ignorance or a prejudice against artwork from another culture?
I suppose what I'm mostly getting at is that I can see where the guys on the panel are coming from. Making a movie based around She-Hulk, it wouldn't be socially conscious women lining up to go see it, it'll be mostly guys seeing a sexy green lady strut around in next to nothing and beat things up, and as a movie-maker I would probably balk at that as well, the same way someone might balk at making a Queen's Blade live-action movie.
I hate to be the guy to say this, but shes 32. if it's another 3 years before they make the movie she'd be 35. if they include the character in more movies, as that's what marvels bread and butter is, after a few sequels she'd be pushing 40. I'm not saying that women in their forties can't be attractive, but youth is a bigger deal for women than men when it comes to appearance. We can try to pretend it isn't, but a movie studio wont. 10 years ago she would have been perfect, if she was 6'4 she would have walked right off the page.
KazeAizen said:
I was going to describe Doc Sampson as a guy who was mentally all together, just thought I wish I was little bit taller
I wish I was a baller
I wish I had a girl who looked good
I would call her
I wish I had a rabbit in a hat with a bat
And a six four Impala
so all the gamma did to him was make him buff and handsom, and turn his hair green. just slightly superhuman.
I was just trying to adress the sexyness angle. As far as a feminist icon goes she's a successful lawyer or punches stuff in her spare time. I don't think there is much beyond her being a power fantasy that has nothing to do with traditional gender roles or the male perspective. It's not supposed to be deep, just a fun action character who isn't wrapped up in patriarchal concepts. Most other women characters are "badass superwoman, but..." She hulk is just a woman who is successful in many areas of life, from the courts to punching bad guys; allowing someone to enjoy such a story without being told they are weak because of gender.
And what if her new blood bad her look younger longer? And how old is Tony/any other older hero? This - matters like this shouldn't but still do. When I'm over 40 I don't want someone to come around and tell me I'm too old to have green super smashing powers or take away mad science! Let's save the world any age or gender...or take it over, mwahahahaha!Robot-Jesus said:
As a big fan of Deadpool..... She-Hulk did WHAT? I must obtain these comics! Also, didn't know Spider-Woman was created for the same reasons, I'm in the middle of reading the Marvel Essentials collections for her right now. It's a bit of a hard read being mostly 1970s, but it gets better as it goes. I think I'll skip the early She-Hulk and jump straight into 'Sensational' if it's as good as you make it sound. (Side Note: Comics fans ITT, when/what series DOES Spider-Woman really get good at/during?)
And Gina Carano? God yes! Maybe they could even pull off the trick they did with Captain America, where you could use CG on Gina too look smaller/skinnier before her hulk transformation, and her actual body appearance for She-Hulk (plus green makeup). That could be a thing.
Gotta agree with that big long discussion on you had on subversion. What's the source of the comic snippet at the top? I'd like to hear the rest of what Tony Stark has to say, me being an Iron Man fan as well.Trishbot said:
They address that in her book, actually...
-long post snip-
My vote goes towards Gina Carano.
-image snip-
MMA fighter, former American Gladiator, built like a mack truck, tall, muscular, curvy, sexy, does all her own movie stunts and fight scenes, has acting experience in several high-budget movies, and looks great in a dress or in street clothes. She was widely favored to play Wonder Woman (she was even dating Henry Cavill at the time), but Warner Bros went with a much thinner, smaller girl instead... so I think Marvel should capitalize on that oversight for their universe instead.
Other than that, yeah, Marvel, get us a She-Hulk film. She's well overdue and she'd be an utter delight in the right director's hands.
And Gina Carano? God yes! Maybe they could even pull off the trick they did with Captain America, where you could use CG on Gina too look smaller/skinnier before her hulk transformation, and her actual body appearance for She-Hulk (plus green makeup). That could be a thing.
So Goyer describes She-Hulk as "a green pron star that only Hulk could f"...
I've never read a Hulk or She-Hulk comic but hearing that even I though "Wait, are they supposed to be related or something?"
And then Bob lays out her origin story in which she is introduced as Bruce Banner's cousin...
Wow.
I've never read a Hulk or She-Hulk comic but hearing that even I though "Wait, are they supposed to be related or something?"
And then Bob lays out her origin story in which she is introduced as Bruce Banner's cousin...
Wow.
It definitely sounds like something to check out. I've been reading my way through Empowered and love the self-aware humor that comes with it. It sounds like She-Hulk delivers on that as well.
Anyway, the clip led to a bit of a conundrum for me. As Bob mentioned, giving She-Hulk consequence-free powers challenges the old cliche that women cannot wield power without consequences.
However, it seems to simultaneously suggest that they need consequence-free powers in order to be entrusted with them.
I guess the old cliches need some time to fade away before we whip out the "great power-great responsibility" mantra.
EDIT:
Well, I just took a dive into it. Looks like she does have a great deal of responsibility to go with that power of hers. People are quick to blame her for any destruction, and people are constantly trying to take advantage of her reputation. Even without Bruce Banner's rage problem, she looks like she has her hands full. Impressive.
Anyway, the clip led to a bit of a conundrum for me. As Bob mentioned, giving She-Hulk consequence-free powers challenges the old cliche that women cannot wield power without consequences.
However, it seems to simultaneously suggest that they need consequence-free powers in order to be entrusted with them.
I guess the old cliches need some time to fade away before we whip out the "great power-great responsibility" mantra.
EDIT:
Well, I just took a dive into it. Looks like she does have a great deal of responsibility to go with that power of hers. People are quick to blame her for any destruction, and people are constantly trying to take advantage of her reputation. Even without Bruce Banner's rage problem, she looks like she has her hands full. Impressive.
That does expand on the issue a bit more, I suppose, I guess I still can't blame Goyer's point of view so much when there are societal standards when it comes to nudity and acceptable amounts of sexiness. Even if it is a real empowerment icon or whatever, it's going to be seen by the uninitiated as sexy green muscle porn.Trishbot said:
Getting all outraged at this I guess just shows a lack of perspective on the part of western comic fans (which wouldn't be the first time). Let's try a little game.
What would be your first reaction if someone said "we should make a movie out of a show where the main character dresses like this! [http://puu.sh/93HBb.png]"
What you actually think of it may not matter much, but what do you think most people's reaction would be? There's no way that would be acceptable. Kill la Kill will likely never see the light of broadcast television, even on Toonami (where they seem just terrified to air a show with a female lead or with too many female characters). Never mind that the show is explores all different kinds of interesting and difficult subjects (such as the concept and implications of clothing in general) and is every bit as "empowering" as you describe the She-Hulk to be, you'll have a segment of people who will just pan it as objectifying or over-the-top garbage.
So I guess what I'm saying is don't expect me to get all riled up about this or care too much about one western superhero who gets miscast as sexist when it happens pretty much all the time and people are just fine with it so long as the subject matter is foreign.
Eh, I don't know if one more opinion is important, but figured I'd give it a shot.
I've not read a single comic except for a handful of Spiderman ones, and my knowledge about all the others is limited to what Bob's told us and what I've been reading in these threads. That said, from what I do see, She-Hulk looks very much like she's not sexist, if not feminist - at least in her current state.
Just depicting sexy characters does not make the character nor its creator inherently sexist. There are plenty of smart sexy women who are themselves feminists, and there are plenty of women who actively try to be sexy but remain respectable people and do well at both. What would make it sexist, in my opinion, is that if the sexy female character was only there to be sexy and/or purely to be the object of desire. Sexist intent is the reason behind the character and not just how she looks, otherwise that would nullify absolutely every attractive female character's ability to be a feminist icon.
According to Bob, She-Hulk was originally made so that no one else with Hulk's rights could make one. Of course she was made to be sexy (like just about every other female superhero out there) to appeal to the main audience, but that makes it a marketing mechanic, not a sexist statement.
Now, the point I saw raised about her sleeping around with a ton of people is a good one, and like I said I don't know enough about the character to really give a thorough opinion. There is, however, something to do with her sleeping around that would determine whether there's sexism in there or not, and that would be agency. If a sexy woman sleeps with tons of men because they want to would likely be sexist and/or objectifying (if you make a distinction). That would be an instance of a character who's sexy and sleeps with everyone because she's a slut and she's up for grabs.
I don't get that from She-Hulk either though. From what I've gathered in my limited knowledge, it's often She-Hulk herself that goes around and instigates these things, rather than being come upon by dozens of men. I have no doubt that, if she didn't want to, no one would be able to force her to sleep with him. That, I think, is a rather deciding factor.
Basically, She-Hulk does have many qualities that potentially make her sexist. However, not only is she aware of them, but she's actually using them herself for what she wants - even if that would be kicking a lot of ass and sleeping it off with someone afterwards. It would be sexist if she was meant to embody/represent women in general and say that all women are nymphomaniacs, but I highly doubt a giant green-skinned amazon whose day job is fighting bad guys is meant to be representative of the average woman.
Please feel free to argue or discuss, like I said I know nothing about any superheroes aside from what Bob's said and what I've read in these forum sections. I'd like to know more about what people think.
I've not read a single comic except for a handful of Spiderman ones, and my knowledge about all the others is limited to what Bob's told us and what I've been reading in these threads. That said, from what I do see, She-Hulk looks very much like she's not sexist, if not feminist - at least in her current state.
Just depicting sexy characters does not make the character nor its creator inherently sexist. There are plenty of smart sexy women who are themselves feminists, and there are plenty of women who actively try to be sexy but remain respectable people and do well at both. What would make it sexist, in my opinion, is that if the sexy female character was only there to be sexy and/or purely to be the object of desire. Sexist intent is the reason behind the character and not just how she looks, otherwise that would nullify absolutely every attractive female character's ability to be a feminist icon.
According to Bob, She-Hulk was originally made so that no one else with Hulk's rights could make one. Of course she was made to be sexy (like just about every other female superhero out there) to appeal to the main audience, but that makes it a marketing mechanic, not a sexist statement.
Now, the point I saw raised about her sleeping around with a ton of people is a good one, and like I said I don't know enough about the character to really give a thorough opinion. There is, however, something to do with her sleeping around that would determine whether there's sexism in there or not, and that would be agency. If a sexy woman sleeps with tons of men because they want to would likely be sexist and/or objectifying (if you make a distinction). That would be an instance of a character who's sexy and sleeps with everyone because she's a slut and she's up for grabs.
I don't get that from She-Hulk either though. From what I've gathered in my limited knowledge, it's often She-Hulk herself that goes around and instigates these things, rather than being come upon by dozens of men. I have no doubt that, if she didn't want to, no one would be able to force her to sleep with him. That, I think, is a rather deciding factor.
Basically, She-Hulk does have many qualities that potentially make her sexist. However, not only is she aware of them, but she's actually using them herself for what she wants - even if that would be kicking a lot of ass and sleeping it off with someone afterwards. It would be sexist if she was meant to embody/represent women in general and say that all women are nymphomaniacs, but I highly doubt a giant green-skinned amazon whose day job is fighting bad guys is meant to be representative of the average woman.
Please feel free to argue or discuss, like I said I know nothing about any superheroes aside from what Bob's said and what I've read in these forum sections. I'd like to know more about what people think.