The Big Picture: She-Hulk Shaming

[twosage]

Honestly, I think She-Hulk would be a lock for her own movie if she was named anything else. The name Spider-Woman is defensible as being her own unique character (even if she did start off as a distaff of Spidey), but "She-Hulk" is explicit. "She's a girl version of Hulk". Ugh... Unless they do what Byrne did and adopt a self-aware subversive tone that would probably destroy the MCU, there is no way to make a big budget tentpole movie called "She-Hulk".

I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Marvel Universe, but why hasn't there been a concerted effort to find Shulkie another super name? Maybe something in Latin due to her lawyering... "Aestus"?

Although, they'd be fools if they don't have Jen show up in the Daredevil series in her capacity as a lawyer.

 

[Nuxxy]

She-Hulk is not an "ogre" because she is female. She is there for the sex appeal plain and simple. It plays into that stereotype that if a guy is big and strong, then he must be dumb. The whole "brain vs. brawn" gimmick.

How is the Hulk dumb, in the ogre sense? Given that he is a giant green rage monster that chooses brawn to solve problems, but I've never seen anything to suggest he is mentally deficient to the level of, for example, the trolls in Lord of the Rings. He's not a rational thinker, but he's not stupid.

 

[TallanKhan]

I would watch a She-Hulk movie. In fact, a set up for a She-Hulk movie would make an interesting sub plot for a 2nd Hulk movie, something which I am completely rooting for anyway.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

I imagine it would be somewhat difficult to adapt She-Hulk into a standalone film.

Not because she's a complicated character, or because of some outdated idea that a female lead action flick won't sell. I just don't know how they would fit her into the current metaplot.

As it stands the MCU is still expanding and pretty much every new story that comes out has to be interconnected in some capacity and I don't see a way to include a standalone She-Hulk film in their current arc.

To be 100% clear, I would love to see a She-Hulk film or television series, I just don't see a way to fit her into the current plans outside of introducing her as a Coulson-esque unifying presence over several films and then launching her into a standalone or small team film.

From a matter of personal preference, I also must admit that her role as Super powered defense attourney has always been my favorite incarnation. It's a unique setting and concept that I don't think gets enough attention...problem is that just because I'd watch a Super hero themed courtroom drama doesn't mean anyone else would.

Honestly I just think they'd have a hard time with the CGI side of things. The Hulk looked great in the Avengers movie, no question...but that's because he's the Hulk. He's a massive freaking monster and he's pretty much only around when he's wrecking faces. She-Hulk, just sorta hanging around the office, maybe accidentally breaking a chair or something while she gets used to being a green colossus? She-Hulk having breakfast in the morning? Talking on a cell phone while she walks down the street? I dunno, I don't think they'd be able to pull off the nuances of casual facial expression tightly enough to make casual-circumstances-Hulk effects hold me in the movie. Maybe they could, I don't know, but I have doubts.

In terms of technical ability I don't know that it would be too hard. mocap animation has come a long way in not too short a span of time.
While I won't expand on the pros and cons of Avatar or the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, they did a damn good job of making quasi humanoid characters that looked and felt more nuanced than we've come to expect.

Of course the counterargument there is that The Navi, and Davey Jones were all clearly not human, while She Hulk is basically just a big green lady so there's a lot more uncanny valley to deal with when trying to animate her.

 

[Shjade]

Of course the counterargument there is that The Navi, and Davey Jones were all clearly not human, while She Hulk is basically just a big green lady so there's a lot more uncanny valley to deal with when trying to animate her.

My thoughts exactly. The Na'vi, similar to the Hulk, were almost-human but, much of the time, their expressions were pretty dramatic one way or another. There were some subtle moments, but not a whole lot, and the ones that were there were helped along by their non-human traits somewhat masking and softening the human ones. The Hulk, though ostensibly human in full, mostly just had to glower and scream at things - not a lot of range to have to cover there.

Making him look believable and interesting doing less-Hulk-related things would probably have been much harder.

 

[Brian Ramsay]

Maybe the feminist icon stuff hinges on Jen Walters embracing and enjoying her new life and lifestyle. Bruce Banner runs from being the hulk but Jen loves it to the point that when she could no longer transform back to her humanform her reactions were pretty much "meh,"

She Hulk does "get around" but its been shown Human Jen Walters is kind of a prude and that its as She Hulk that she embraced a more relaxed sexuality.

Not like that's the first-ever time we've seen a character becoming aware of repressed personality traits thanks to becoming the Hulk.

I'll give Goyer the benefit of the doubt and assume his real issue is Red She Hulk The hulkedout version of Betty Ross

Her defining character trait has been her love/resentment of Bruce Banner

 

[Silverspetz]

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

So just because a design is sexy it couldn't possibly have been conceived with ANY other thought or purpose behind it. Nope, it must have been just because the artist "found it hot". I find that idea far more shallow than anything in KLK honestly.

 

[elvor0]

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

So just because a design is sexy it couldn't possibly have been conceived with ANY other thought or purpose behind it. Nope, it must have been just because the artist "found it hot". I find that idea far more shallow than anything in KLK honestly.

Well..yeah. It makes Powergirls boob window look conservative, I've seen lingere that covers more flesh, it's hard not to be shallow. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least tell me /why/ rather than just dissmissive in a way that just makes me chuckle. What is the purpose behind it looking like that exactly? I mean look at it:

Spoiler: sorta NSFW

Are you seriously saying that hasn't been designed with its primary purpose being to titulate with a straight face? There's a difference between a character /being/ sexy, and a character being /designed/ to be sexy. I find Femshep kicking ass in her power armor sexy, but she's not sexualized.

It's quite literally lingere with a "skirt" and a neck ruff. Of course I'm being shallow about it, because I can't see what purpose that outfit design serves beyond the sexy. It doesn't protect you and unless the braces are clipped onto the nipples, there's no way they wouldn't just fall off the second you started moving about. I mean /honestly/, what are design reasons for an outfit like this? Because it clearly goes into the same catagory as a plate mail bikini, which I'm sure you'll agree /is/ designed with sexiness in mind.

 

[Trishbot]

Yeah, because I was totally talking about you specifically. She was created for sex appeal. Her design proves that. That doesn't mean I think she can't become something more. Good job at failing to be clever, though.

According to her very own creators, no, she wasn't. She was created to secure the rights to the character before TV executives did, and they wanted to create a "smart Hulk". Even addressing the attractiveness of the character, Stan Lee basically said "show me the heroine who isn't". I fail to see how her design "proves" anything, unless you think Hulk running around in nothing but purple shorts is also purely for sex appeal. He STILL runs around in nothing but shorts and nothing else, while She-Hulk mostly is seen in business suits, jeans, T-shirts, sneakers, and athletic gear. Even her original "costume" was just normal clothes that shredded when she gained two feet and 400 lbs of muscle and she STILL was wearing more than her male counterpart was.

And whether she "can become something more"... she already IS something more. She has been for well over 30 years. It's not "potentially she could be a good character that isn't defined by her sex appeal"; she IS a good character... one not defined by her sex appeal.

I wasn't trying to be clever. I'm simply proof positive that female readers have enjoyed reading She-Hulk and enjoying the vast range of depth and traits she possesses, with "sex appeal" not being absent but not being what defines her. I can very much relate to that, as can many women, far more than I bet any guy out there can.

 

[idodo35]

why are people angry about antman? did i miss something?

 

[Silverspetz]

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

So just because a design is sexy it couldn't possibly have been conceived with ANY other thought or purpose behind it. Nope, it must have been just because the artist "found it hot". I find that idea far more shallow than anything in KLK honestly.

Well..yeah. It makes Powergirls boob window look conservative, I've seen lingere that covers more flesh, it's hard not to be shallow. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least tell me /why/ rather than just dissmissive in a way that just makes me chuckle. What is the purpose behind it looking like that exactly? I mean look at it:

Spoiler: sorta NSFW

Are you seriously saying that hasn't been designed with its primary purpose being to titulate with a straight face? There's a difference between a character /being/ sexy, and a character being /designed/ to be sexy. I find Femshep kicking ass in her power armor sexy, but she's not sexualized.

It's quite literally lingere with a "skirt" and a neck ruff. Of course I'm being shallow about it, because I can't see what purpose that outfit design serves beyond the sexy. It doesn't protect you and unless the braces are clipped onto the nipples, there's no way they wouldn't just fall off the second you started moving about. I mean /honestly/, what are design reasons for an outfit like this? Because it clearly goes into the same catagory as a plate mail bikini, which I'm sure you'll agree /is/ designed with sexiness in mind.

First of all, which purpose are you talking about? Are you asking me why the creators of the show designed it like that or are you asking if there is an in-universe reason for why it looks like lingerine, since you keep bringing up the practical reasons why it doesn't work as a uniform? Because there actually IS an in-universe reason, but that wasn't really what I was talking about originally so I will focus on the reasons why the showrunners made their heroine look like that and what purpose doing so serves for the story at large.

Truth is, the outfit IS designed to be sexy, but its primary purpose is to SUBVERT that sexyness and NOT making it sexualized. The whole show is so over-the-top cartoony and all around disinterested in how the characters look that the fanservice deliberately stops being sexy and just becomes something that is sort of "there" (and occasionallyplayed for laughs). In short, the way the sexy stuff is presented actually turns it into something that isn't sexy at all. One of the general themes of the show seems to be the de-sexualization of the human body, and thus the design serves a higher purpose other than to titulate. Ryoko is designed to be sexy, so that the show can DE-sexualize her and make a statement.

Whether or not you agree with this is of course up to you (although I kind of doubt you have seen enough of the show yourself to have much of an opinion). My issue here isn't really about you agreeing that KLK is somewhat deeper show than you give it credit for. My issue is that you have a mindset that is very counterproductive to any kind of intelligent debate about the subject. You took one look at the show's aesthetic design and said that this could ONLY have been done because the showrunners thought it would be sexy and draw in viewers, without a single thought that maybe it could have ANY other purpose beyond that. It looks sexy, so it CAN'T have an other thoughts behind it, regardless of HOW it is used in the actual show. And that is just a very shallow way of thinking. Even if something is obviously designed to be sexy, you shouldn't stop asking yourself WHY it is designed to be sexy.

 

[elvor0]

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

So just because a design is sexy it couldn't possibly have been conceived with ANY other thought or purpose behind it. Nope, it must have been just because the artist "found it hot". I find that idea far more shallow than anything in KLK honestly.

Well..yeah. It makes Powergirls boob window look conservative, I've seen lingere that covers more flesh, it's hard not to be shallow. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least tell me /why/ rather than just dissmissive in a way that just makes me chuckle. What is the purpose behind it looking like that exactly? I mean look at it:

Spoiler: sorta NSFW

Are you seriously saying that hasn't been designed with its primary purpose being to titulate with a straight face? There's a difference between a character /being/ sexy, and a character being /designed/ to be sexy. I find Femshep kicking ass in her power armor sexy, but she's not sexualized.

It's quite literally lingere with a "skirt" and a neck ruff. Of course I'm being shallow about it, because I can't see what purpose that outfit design serves beyond the sexy. It doesn't protect you and unless the braces are clipped onto the nipples, there's no way they wouldn't just fall off the second you started moving about. I mean /honestly/, what are design reasons for an outfit like this? Because it clearly goes into the same catagory as a plate mail bikini, which I'm sure you'll agree /is/ designed with sexiness in mind.

First of all, which purpose are you talking about? Are you asking me why the creators of the show designed it like that or are you asking if there is an in-universe reason for why it looks like lingerine, since you keep bringing up the practical reasons why it doesn't work as a uniform? Because there actually IS an in-universe reason, but that wasn't really what I was talking about originally so I will focus on the reasons why the showrunners made their heroine look like that and what purpose doing so serves for the story at large.

Truth is, the outfit IS designed to be sexy, but its primary purpose is to SUBVERT that sexyness and NOT making it sexualized. The whole show is so over-the-top cartoony and all around disinterested in how the characters look that the fanservice deliberately stops being sexy and just becomes something that is sort of "there" (and occasionallyplayed for laughs). In short, the way the sexy stuff is presented actually turns it into something that isn't sexy at all. One of the general themes of the show seems to be the de-sexualization of the human body, and thus the design serves a higher purpose other than to titulate. Ryoko is designed to be sexy, so that the show can DE-sexualize her and make a statement.

Whether or not you agree with this is of course up to you (although I kind of doubt you have seen enough of the show yourself to have much of an opinion). My issue here isn't really about you agreeing that KLK is somewhat deeper show than you give it credit for. My issue is that you have a mindset that is very counterproductive to any kind of intelligent debate about the subject. You took one look at the show's aesthetic design and said that this could ONLY have been done because the showrunners thought it would be sexy and draw in viewers, without a single thought that maybe it could have ANY other purpose beyond that. It looks sexy, so it CAN'T have an other thoughts behind it, regardless of HOW it is used in the actual show. And that is just a very shallow way of thinking. Even if something is obviously designed to be sexy, you shouldn't stop asking yourself WHY it is designed to be sexy.

Oh well, that was exactly what I was looking for, I salute you good sir. Tis a shame my Snorlax no longer dons a hat, or I'd have him tip it.

Truth be told no, I havent seen enough or any of the show, I knew /of/ it, but I was going off of the dude I quoted description of the show, who has watched it, which to me sounded like the plot of a hentai anime, which coupled with the design aesthetic, with none of the proper exposition you provided; I assume you can see why that would colour my opinion.

Yes it was rash of me to word my initial argument in the sense that there could be no other reason for it being sexy, however I still stand by my point that it's primary purpose is to be sexy. The problem is, unless told about why it's like that, there's no reason for me to assume otherwise, it is afterall, a Japanese anime; infamous for their sexual deviency and er...dubious fanservice(it's not like hentai animes with proper fleshed out stories don't exist, I even enjoy some of them) and first impressions are everything, if your promotional material showcases a girl in lingere and someone who enjoys the show describing it as naked people running around to fight an evil clothing company, I'm going to assume that it's going to be a softcore porn fanservicy kind of show.

Who knows, I could watch the show and find it enjoyable, but the promotional material turns me off of it. The way /you/ describe it makes it actually sound quite interesting. But because of the promotional material, you end up with a situation I'm going to write it off as a porno and the people who are inticed by the porno are going to be turned off when they start watching it and discover it isn't.

I am curious as to what the in universe reason is though if you'll sate my curiosity.

 

[Silverspetz]

I mean the outfit Ryuko Matoi is wearing has clearly been designed to titulate. Which is fine, it goes into the same catagory as the Dragons Crown Sorcerer and plate mail bikinis, but lets not pretend that it's justified for any reason beyond what the artist found hot.

So just because a design is sexy it couldn't possibly have been conceived with ANY other thought or purpose behind it. Nope, it must have been just because the artist "found it hot". I find that idea far more shallow than anything in KLK honestly.

Well..yeah. It makes Powergirls boob window look conservative, I've seen lingere that covers more flesh, it's hard not to be shallow. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, at least tell me /why/ rather than just dissmissive in a way that just makes me chuckle. What is the purpose behind it looking like that exactly? I mean look at it:

Spoiler: sorta NSFW

Are you seriously saying that hasn't been designed with its primary purpose being to titulate with a straight face? There's a difference between a character /being/ sexy, and a character being /designed/ to be sexy. I find Femshep kicking ass in her power armor sexy, but she's not sexualized.

It's quite literally lingere with a "skirt" and a neck ruff. Of course I'm being shallow about it, because I can't see what purpose that outfit design serves beyond the sexy. It doesn't protect you and unless the braces are clipped onto the nipples, there's no way they wouldn't just fall off the second you started moving about. I mean /honestly/, what are design reasons for an outfit like this? Because it clearly goes into the same catagory as a plate mail bikini, which I'm sure you'll agree /is/ designed with sexiness in mind.

First of all, which purpose are you talking about? Are you asking me why the creators of the show designed it like that or are you asking if there is an in-universe reason for why it looks like lingerine, since you keep bringing up the practical reasons why it doesn't work as a uniform? Because there actually IS an in-universe reason, but that wasn't really what I was talking about originally so I will focus on the reasons why the showrunners made their heroine look like that and what purpose doing so serves for the story at large.

Truth is, the outfit IS designed to be sexy, but its primary purpose is to SUBVERT that sexyness and NOT making it sexualized. The whole show is so over-the-top cartoony and all around disinterested in how the characters look that the fanservice deliberately stops being sexy and just becomes something that is sort of "there" (and occasionallyplayed for laughs). In short, the way the sexy stuff is presented actually turns it into something that isn't sexy at all. One of the general themes of the show seems to be the de-sexualization of the human body, and thus the design serves a higher purpose other than to titulate. Ryoko is designed to be sexy, so that the show can DE-sexualize her and make a statement.

Whether or not you agree with this is of course up to you (although I kind of doubt you have seen enough of the show yourself to have much of an opinion). My issue here isn't really about you agreeing that KLK is somewhat deeper show than you give it credit for. My issue is that you have a mindset that is very counterproductive to any kind of intelligent debate about the subject. You took one look at the show's aesthetic design and said that this could ONLY have been done because the showrunners thought it would be sexy and draw in viewers, without a single thought that maybe it could have ANY other purpose beyond that. It looks sexy, so it CAN'T have an other thoughts behind it, regardless of HOW it is used in the actual show. And that is just a very shallow way of thinking. Even if something is obviously designed to be sexy, you shouldn't stop asking yourself WHY it is designed to be sexy.

Oh well, that was exactly what I was looking for, I salute you good sir. Tis a shame my Snorlax no longer dons a hat, or I'd have him tip it.

Truth be told no, I havent seen enough or any of the show, I knew /of/ it, but I was going off of the dude I quoted description of the show, who has watched it, which to me sounded like the plot of a hentai anime, which coupled with the design aesthetic, with none of the proper exposition you provided; I assume you can see why that would colour my opinion.

Yes it was rash of me to word my initial argument in the sense that there could be no other reason for it being sexy, however I still stand by my point that it's primary purpose is to be sexy. The problem is, unless told about why it's like that, there's no reason for me to assume otherwise, it is afterall, a Japanese anime; infamous for their sexual deviency and er...dubious fanservice(it's not like hentai animes with proper fleshed out stories don't exist, I even enjoy some of them) and first impressions are everything, if your promotional material showcases a girl in lingere and someone who enjoys the show describing it as naked people running around to fight an evil clothing company, I'm going to assume that it's going to be a softcore porn fanservicy kind of show.

Who knows, I could watch the show and find it enjoyable, but the promotional material turns me off of it. The way /you/ describe it makes it actually sound quite interesting. But because of the promotional material, you end up with a situation I'm going to write it off as a porno and the people who are inticed by the porno are going to be turned off when they start watching it and discover it isn't.

I am curious as to what the in universe reason is though if you'll sate my curiosity.

Uhm, wow, a polite and sensible response. Now I just feel bad about being so hostile last time.

Yes, I suppose first impressions are important and I realize that this has turned off many people from the show. I guess that is part of why I felt so strongly about defending it because this really isn't just fanservice so it pisses me off when people think sexiness is a disqualifier when it comes to being a smart and well-written show.

As for the in-universe reason for the fanservice:
The uniform is actually a sentient life-form (named Senketsu), which empowers Ryoko in exchange for draining some of her blood during the fight. It (and every other battle-suit in the show) is made of something called life-fibers, an alien parasite that drains human life-force. The strongest uniforms like Senketsu are designed to make as little contact with the skin as possible during battle so that the wearer won't lose control or just flat-out die instantly from blood-loss.

 

[maximara]

I don't really know what to say about that. I didn't even know a she-Hulk existed before the video, and the video didn't really convince me that she's a feminist icon, even if she may not be totally sexist either. Does self-awareness make it less or not sexist?

In anime it's a common trope to have a kickass female protagonist who also happens to be wearing something incredibly skimpy. Take the example of Queen's Blade, a show with a very long list of kickass female characters- but it's also basically porn. Is the she-hulk not sexist because it never shows her in near-explicit sexual situations? Or are the various characters in the Queen's Blade series feminist icons as well?

Well Marvel gave us the Red She Hulk. Who is she? Why Betty Banner. And if that is not a 'what?' moment you have her father Thunderbolt Ross who now is the Red Hulk. Oh Rick Jones is now A-Bomb a Hulk like character and the Hulk has a son named Skaar (from woman he married in World War Hulk). As you can tell things have gotten totally ridiculous.

 

[LenticularHomicide]

and the fears that once controlled her can't get to her at all.

Is it a bad thing that when I read this I started singing a certain song in my head?

Would it happen to be a Stephen Schwartz-penned belty number taken from a musical adaptation of a fairy-tale, sung by Idina Menzel?

If yes, which one of those? (Ba-dumm tissh)

 

[KazeAizen]

and the fears that once controlled her can't get to her at all.

Is it a bad thing that when I read this I started singing a certain song in my head?

Would it happen to be a Stephen Schwartz-penned belty number taken from a musical adaptation of a fairy-tale, sung by Idina Menzel?

If yes, which one of those? (Ba-dumm tissh)

We have a winner! You can take this imaginary hug and cookie.

 

[LenticularHomicide]

snip

We have a winner! You can take this imaginary hug and cookie.

So, Defying Gravity.

 

[Lizmichi]

Man, I would love She Hulk to be part of the MCU. In fact her becoming She Hulk would also be great character development for Bruce Baner because he's so worried about someone endding up like him throught his blood, but if he had to give his blood away to save a member of his family I think that's a great way to bring in She Hulk for the movies. Just what I think on the idea.