The Big Picture: Sidekicks

[abort_user]

I do have one small Batman related question is Terry McGinnis canon as Bruce's son in the Batman universe or is he just his son as far as the cartoon goes.

He wasn't his son, just an adopted father figure.

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_(Terry_McGinnis)#Bruce_Wayne

actually he was Bruce Wayne's son. it was revealed in Epilogue of Justice League Unlimited. the link you posted even confirms this fact.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't know how anyone can read comics. How do you deal with all those knee jerk changes to continuity, retconning and shit from fan reaction? That kind of crap would drive me insane.
I'll stick with stand alone productions.

 

[Vault101]

The comic book industry really needs to stop revamping continuity every time a fan cry?s .

But then again the gaming industry isn?t much better ??.. im looking at you bioware

if it aint broke don't fix it

but somtimes things come out broken, then you really should fix it

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

I do have one small Batman related question is Terry McGinnis canon as Bruce's son in the Batman universe or is he just his son as far as the cartoon goes./quote]

Cartoons and the comics taking place in the DCAU. Since Terry becomes Batman in the future, and we are still in the present, it still a bit of a mute point.

One wonders if Terry will ever actually appear in the main comic universe (besides a few appearances like in Countdown where he is briefly seen in what is another universe) without the existence of Cadmus and now every city has a Batman (or was that retconned out with Flashpoint?) is even possible.

He also has another son, who is currently Robin, so you don't need to make another one.

Okay the idea of Bruce being Terry's father comes from a JLU episode where they show an older Terry dealing with CADMUS and finding out that his father's sperm's DNA had been reprogrammed to be Bruce Wayne. It was a plot by Amanda Waller to create another Batman, even hired Phantasm to kill Terry's parents... she backed out though.

As for how that works for the Comic Continuity? Well there is a few canon Batman Beyond comics that include Hush, Nightwing, Jason Todd and even makes the Killing Joke canon for the cartoon. In it's most recent issues its even stated that Bruce of Beyond world did indeed form Batman Inc, but it had since become little more than a charity.

Also even as of the New 52 both CADMUS and Batman Inc still exist. Take from that what you may.

I knew about that Terry was part clone. It came from the episode Epilogue (you can watch it here if you want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfE-9cJAEVM ). I assumed it was still cannon in the "Justice League Beyond" comics they are doing.

I sadly don't know much about the comics. Never read many besides Watchman, so I don't know much on that front. Didn't know Cadmus existed, I knew their were squads of soldiers ready to take on individual heroes like Superman if they went rogue/got mind controlled and couldn't snap out of it (and I know Superman endorses his), I thought Cadmus was a construct by the cartoon.

 

[Evil Smurf]

ugh Robinception

 

[notyouraveragejoe]

I read way too many comics since this was a recap of stuff I knew. Except for the female Robin, didn't realize she was Robin before Batgirl. My favourite character is Dick Grayson for many many reasons followed by Tim Drake. Strangely enough in the current Young Justice cartoon Robin is Dick Grayson instead of Tim Drake. Which means I like it even more.

 

[I-Protest-I]

I can't read DC's cape comics because of shit like this, it's all too much.

 

[wetfart]

Alternate universe or not, Carrie Kelly will always be the first female Robin for me.

 

[rayen020]

okay i'm a bit confused. He says Dick Grayson led Teen Titans are the inspiration for the TT show. i took that to mean in the Teen Titans show that was dick grayson Robin. Okay while when they all go to the future after starfire went missing and Robin had become nightwing, i feel like it was said that Robin of the Teen Titans(show) was Tim Drake. I remember two occasions where starfire and (i think) cyborg refer to Robin as Tim. One i think was in the Tokyo movie and the other was in the series somewhere.

Have i been fooling myself and it's been DG the whole time, was played as robin is just robin and which one it is is left anonymous, or was it Tim Drake?

 

[Shirokurou]

Surprised that the All-Star Batman and Robin Dick Grayson re-origin (which is actually the same) didn't get mention.

At least for it's sheer stupidity...

Linkara reviewed it
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/13422-asbr01

 

[Tiamattt]

okay i'm a bit confused. He says Dick Grayson led Teen Titans are the inspiration for the TT show. i took that to mean in the Teen Titans show that was dick grayson Robin. Okay while when they all go to the future after starfire went missing and Robin had become nightwing, i feel like it was said that Robin of the Teen Titans(show) was Tim Drake. I remember two occasions where starfire and (i think) cyborg refer to Robin as Tim. One i think was in the Tokyo movie and the other was in the series somewhere.

Have i been fooling myself and it's been DG the whole time, was played as robin is just robin and which one it is is left anonymous, or was it Tim Drake?

If I remember correctly they never specifically said Robin's secret identity, wasn't really necessary since even on their downtime they still remained in costume/character. That said it was very easy for comic book fans to tell he was Dick

1. He fits the right age all the other characters would've been at the time comic book wise. A good example I guess would be Kid Flash aka Wally West, another original founding member of the TT, Garth +Speedy works here as well.
2. All the TT stories they used from the comics were old ones with DG in it.
3. His grudge/ongoing feud with Deathstroke
4. The fact that he actually becomes Nightwing in the future is a huge giveaway
5. And the most obvious would be his relationship with Starfire, which is one of the most classic relationships DC has(or had, pretty sure that reboot killed it)

There's probably a lot more but hopefully you get the point.

Although in your defense his costume was a lot more like Tim's then Dick's, which is a good thing since that means he got pants and no stupid elf shoes. And the staff that Robin in the show liked to use was another Tim thing. So no you weren't totally off the mark.

 

[Tiamattt]

Wait, what about Carrie Kelley from Batman: The Dark Knight Returns?

I don't think we can really count alternative futures/worlds, trying to stick to one continuity is confusing enough as it is.

 

[Lizardon]

okay i'm a bit confused. He says Dick Grayson led Teen Titans are the inspiration for the TT show. i took that to mean in the Teen Titans show that was dick grayson Robin. Okay while when they all go to the future after starfire went missing and Robin had become nightwing, i feel like it was said that Robin of the Teen Titans(show) was Tim Drake. I remember two occasions where starfire and (i think) cyborg refer to Robin as Tim. One i think was in the Tokyo movie and the other was in the series somewhere.

Have i been fooling myself and it's been DG the whole time, was played as robin is just robin and which one it is is left anonymous, or was it Tim Drake?

He was never referred to as Tim, or Dick in the show. I believe in some official tie-in comics, they showed all the characters origins and it is shown that he is Dick Greyson.

Aside from the clues Tiamitt listed, I remember a few more.

-When Raven goes into Robin's mind, there is a short memory of two acrobats falling from a trapeze
-Robin's alternate dimensional counterpart (don't ask) gives us his real name "Nosyarg Kcid" (Dick Grayson spelled backwards)

 

[DeimosMasque]

I knew about that Terry was part clone. It came from the episode Epilogue (you can watch it here if you want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfE-9cJAEVM ). I assumed it was still canon in the "Justice League Beyond" comics they are doing.

I sadly don't know much about the comics. Never read many besides Watchman, so I don't know much on that front. Didn't know Cadmus existed, I knew their were squads of soldiers ready to take on individual heroes like Superman if they went rogue/got mind controlled and couldn't snap out of it (and I know Superman endorses his), I thought Cadmus was a construct by the cartoon.

I am a bit of a comic historian who spends pretty much all disposable income on comic titles every week so it's no worries. It's not everyone's thing so not everyone knows.

In the Justice League, Superman and Batman 'Beyond' comics it all takes place before the revelation in that story, so it's unknown if it "counts" for the comic version.

I always though the revelation was a bit of a lame one and undermined Terry McGuiness as a Batman since he was really "Bruce's son"

I read way too many comics since this was a recap of stuff I knew. Except for the female Robin, didn't realize she was Robin before Batgirl. My favourite character is Dick Grayson for many many reasons followed by Tim Drake. Strangely enough in the current Young Justice cartoon Robin is Dick Grayson instead of Tim Drake. Which means I like it even more.

Actually he's not anymore. As of Season 2, Dick is Nightwing with the new Robin being Tim Drake.

okay i'm a bit confused. He says Dick Grayson led Teen Titans are the inspiration for the TT show. i took that to mean in the Teen Titans show that was dick grayson Robin. Okay while when they all go to the future after starfire went missing and Robin had become nightwing, i feel like it was said that Robin of the Teen Titans(show) was Tim Drake. I remember two occasions where starfire and (i think) cyborg refer to Robin as Tim. One i think was in the Tokyo movie and the other was in the series somewhere.

Have i been fooling myself and it's been DG the whole time, was played as robin is just robin and which one it is is left anonymous, or was it Tim Drake?

Yup it was always Dick Grayson... first clue is that it's Grayson's team of Titans (mostly).

Other people have mentioned the other details but also the character "Larry" from the alternate weird world said his name was "Nosyrag Kicd" first with the animation showing Dick Grayson first forwards and had it scroll to the front until it was backwards.

 

[Thespian]

I liked this episode because I knew all that already ^^

One thing I will say that you didn't mention I that apparently in the new continuity Tim Drake was never Robin and instead was always Red Robin.

You sure? In one of the first few issues of Teen Titans he said "I used to go by Robin the Boy Wonder... And no I didn't come up with that name".

 

[Therumancer]

So.... one Robin got killed after being tortured by *the joker*. The reason for this was *fans let him to die after DC asked them*. (Fans loved it)
Another Robin got killed after being tortured by "the black mask*. The reason for this was *died of torture but could've been saved by somebody when the choice was presented*. (Fans hated it).

After this *sort of* irony, I can safely assume that the gaming community is not the only weird community in geek culture.

Well, there is a lot of politics behind what goes on at DC, the same is true of Marvel as well actually. In a lot of cases it's not just "people hated it" arbitrarly but because of the reasons why something was done, especially when it flies in the face of common sense and continuity. Yes continuity is fluid but there are certain aspects of characters that need to remain constant for them to remain the same basic character.

Stephanie/Spoiler was popular with some people in the comics, but people objected to her death largely because of what it did to Leslie Thomkins who basically acts as one of Batman's major "foils" in the scope of the stories. In more than one occasions her "I'm going to save everyone" attitude has literally had her preventing Batman from taking down villains, and seen her doing things like protecting Mr. Zsaz and helping them recover from injuries. For Leslie to let Stephanie (who is a genuinely good person) die to make some kind of point about teenage crime fighting, is incredibly out of character given that she's someone who won't let an irredeemable mass murderer die.

Needless to say when your dealing with something that pretty much plays such ridiculous havoc with established characterizations, there are other things going on behind the scenes. I never saw a huge breakdown of this one, but from the beginning there were people talking about upper management at DC really hating Batman and a lot of the associated characters and doing all of this as part of the start of a housecleaning where they wanted to pretty much cut his corner of the DC universe down no matter the cost. I don't entirely understand the arguement but the basic point was that Batman's adventures generally work on a lower power level than the rest of DC, and that Gotham might as well be an entirely seperate universe from the rest of DC, the time spent maintaining it for Batman fans (their #1 character apparently) hurting other franchises, and of course the recordkeeping for that many characters especially with them crossing into other titles becoming a pain in the arse to the point where even a "Crisis" wasn't going to do it. Stephanie and Leslie being a sort of test run for what they wanted to do that went badly since we're talking popular characters that weren't mega-popular and also had their detractors. I don't even bother to try and make sense out of the theories, but the bottom line is that these rumors probably started for a reason, and it wouldn't be the first time similar things happened... read some of the reasons people put behind "One More Day" (Spider Man, Marvel) on the other side of the fence, the stories are similar though this is on a lower scale.

At any rate as far as the point your making goes, the big differance was that at the time he died people hated Jason Todd, where people generally liked "Spoiler" at least as a supporting character though she surely wasn't without her critics. What's more it's in character for The Joker to kill someone like this, it's NOT in character for Leslie Thomkins to let someone die. What's more the fans DID have input on the death of Jason Todd, where The Spoiler's death was pretty much something they did out of hand. To be honest I suspect they originally decided to kill her because they figured she was a character people liked, so the death would have meaning and get attention, without realizing how popular she actually was and that it would go beyond people simply being a little bummed out.

What may be behind it or not, think of it ultimatly as a smaller scale version of "One More Day" albiet one where DC clumsily backpedaled when they realized how badly they screwed up. Truthfully I think this is a key example of why comic companies need to occasionally relent and remove things from continuity outright, without it being part of some major "Crisis" type event. After all the outcome of this basically has Leslie arguably being Gotham's biggest troll, doubtlessly in hopes people will forget about that.

As far as bringing Stephanie back... that's kind of tricky since half of her appeal is sort of a shared sidekick for some of the lesser characters. I don't know what they have decided at this point, but the bottom line is that with the continuity changes I'm not sure where she'd fit in. She kind of belongs playing rooftop tag with Cassandra Cain (who honestly was my favorite Batgirl) and helping out Robin. I suppose they could have her become Red Robin's sidekick, or perhaps if they haven't found a replacement already have her take Oracle's place and provide "spoilers" for villain plans or whatever. I haven't been following comics much for a while due to RL issues (finances among them).

 

[DrgoFx]

Batgirl next week? Or is there not enough to work with?

There have been roughly four or five bat girls to my knowledge, and Barbara's not even the first one, but is the most popular. As far as the last three go, it went Barbara, a girl called Cassandra Cain who was pretty much like a female version of Batman in my opinion, dark and such. Then Stephanie.

As for some insight to give everyone a fairly good idea as to how each Robin also differed in other areas: Dick Grayson was agile and quick to react. Jason Todd was more of a brawler, and later adopted the use of live fire arms, something Batman frowns upon. Tim Drake relied more on his intelligence and wits to keep himself alive, and his only real form of training was with a bo-staff and some hand to hand combat. As he grew older, he became better though. Stephanie was agile and a bit of a brawler as well. Damian was raised by assassins, fill in the blanks. No, Batman's not happy that Damian likes to use a Katana.