The Big Picture: Sidekicks

[NinjaSocks333]

I don't know much about comics, but the amount of times iv'e heard comic companies cave to fan demands steers me away from them.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Neat. I actually knew all five of them. Didn't know Stephanie's name, but I knew there was a female Robin in there. Considering I barely know anything about comic characters outside of the Teen Titans, I'm impressed with myself.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Great video, Bob! I already knew about the 5 Robins (YES THERE WERE 5!!!), but you made it sound MUCH simpler. I like how it means grouchy, paranoid loner Batman makes no sense. He's a father figure, a best friend, a trusted advisor, and a leader of men. OF BATMEN!!!

I read way too many comics since this was a recap of stuff I knew. Except for the female Robin, didn't realize she was Robin before Batgirl. My favourite character is Dick Grayson for many many reasons followed by Tim Drake. Strangely enough in the current Young Justice cartoon Robin is Dick Grayson instead of Tim Drake. Which means I like it even more.

Depends on which season. Currently, Grayson's officially Nightwing and probably in the Justice League already, but he commands the team. The current YJ Robin is Tim, along side Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.

Well, there is a lot of politics behind what goes on at DC, the same is true of Marvel as well actually. In a lot of cases it's not just "people hated it" arbitrarly but because of the reasons why something was done, especially when it flies in the face of common sense and continuity. Yes continuity is fluid but there are certain aspects of characters that need to remain constant for them to remain the same basic character.

Stephanie/Spoiler was popular with some people in the comics, but people objected to her death largely because of what it did to Leslie Thomkins who basically acts as one of Batman's major "foils" in the scope of the stories. In more than one occasions her "I'm going to save everyone" attitude has literally had her preventing Batman from taking down villains, and seen her doing things like protecting Mr. Zsaz and helping them recover from injuries. For Leslie to let Stephanie (who is a genuinely good person) die to make some kind of point about teenage crime fighting, is incredibly out of character given that she's someone who won't let an irredeemable mass murderer die.

Needless to say when your dealing with something that pretty much plays such ridiculous havoc with established characterizations, there are other things going on behind the scenes. I never saw a huge breakdown of this one, but from the beginning there were people talking about upper management at DC really hating Batman and a lot of the associated characters and doing all of this as part of the start of a housecleaning where they wanted to pretty much cut his corner of the DC universe down no matter the cost. I don't entirely understand the arguement but the basic point was that Batman's adventures generally work on a lower power level than the rest of DC, and that Gotham might as well be an entirely seperate universe from the rest of DC, the time spent maintaining it for Batman fans (their #1 character apparently) hurting other franchises, and of course the recordkeeping for that many characters especially with them crossing into other titles becoming a pain in the arse to the point where even a "Crisis" wasn't going to do it. Stephanie and Leslie being a sort of test run for what they wanted to do that went badly since we're talking popular characters that weren't mega-popular and also had their detractors. I don't even bother to try and make sense out of the theories, but the bottom line is that these rumors probably started for a reason, and it wouldn't be the first time similar things happened... read some of the reasons people put behind "One More Day" (Spider Man, Marvel) on the other side of the fence, the stories are similar though this is on a lower scale.

At any rate as far as the point your making goes, the big differance was that at the time he died people hated Jason Todd, where people generally liked "Spoiler" at least as a supporting character though she surely wasn't without her critics. What's more it's in character for The Joker to kill someone like this, it's NOT in character for Leslie Thomkins to let someone die. What's more the fans DID have input on the death of Jason Todd, where The Spoiler's death was pretty much something they did out of hand. To be honest I suspect they originally decided to kill her because they figured she was a character people liked, so the death would have meaning and get attention, without realizing how popular she actually was and that it would go beyond people simply being a little bummed out.

What may be behind it or not, think of it ultimatly as a smaller scale version of "One More Day" albiet one where DC clumsily backpedaled when they realized how badly they screwed up. Truthfully I think this is a key example of why comic companies need to occasionally relent and remove things from continuity outright, without it being part of some major "Crisis" type event. After all the outcome of this basically has Leslie arguably being Gotham's biggest troll, doubtlessly in hopes people will forget about that.

As far as bringing Stephanie back... that's kind of tricky since half of her appeal is sort of a shared sidekick for some of the lesser characters. I don't know what they have decided at this point, but the bottom line is that with the continuity changes I'm not sure where she'd fit in. She kind of belongs playing rooftop tag with Cassandra Cain (who honestly was my favorite Batgirl) and helping out Robin. I suppose they could have her become Red Robin's sidekick, or perhaps if they haven't found a replacement already have her take Oracle's place and provide "spoilers" for villain plans or whatever. I haven't been following comics much for a while due to RL issues (finances among them).

You have some good ideas about Stephanie and Leslie, especially the former in the nu52. maybe she's Tim's main squeeze and she just hasn't been mentioned yet, what with Tim leading the Teen Titans and helping Batman Inc. Bob and the rest of you guys brought up a good point about writers vs. editors in story direction in comic books. When a story is great, we fans sing the praises of the writer and illustrators. When one bombs, we heap our scorn on the editor ( e.g. DiDio or Quesada)! Could be fodder for another episode.

 

[Sergey Sund]

Absent parents also where the basis for a comic called "Kill All Parents".
Many mayor super heroes are orphans or have otherwise absent parents - creating for them the need to be more self-reliant and also removing that male role model and protector, forcing them to protect themselves and chose and strive towards their own goals.
In this way they are the same as much of the Greatest Generation: Some of those guys lead fairly ordinary lives after living through some pretty extraordinary shit.
To some, this could be a sort of quiet, every-day heroism (even if they weren't outright badasses during the war).

 

[DeimosMasque]

I liked this episode because I knew all that already ^^

One thing I will say that you didn't mention I that apparently in the new continuity Tim Drake was never Robin and instead was always Red Robin.

You sure? In one of the first few issues of Teen Titans he said "I used to go by Robin the Boy Wonder... And no I didn't come up with that name".

Well according to Teen Titan writer Scott Lobdell, after the DC52 started, he was never officially Robin and has pretty much always been called Red Robin.

 

[Vault Citizen]

I liked this episode because I knew all that already ^^

One thing I will say that you didn't mention I that apparently in the new continuity Tim Drake was never Robin and instead was always Red Robin.

You sure? In one of the first few issues of Teen Titans he said "I used to go by Robin the Boy Wonder... And no I didn't come up with that name".

http://comics-x-aminer.com/2012/07/16/what-the-tim-drake-was-never-robin/

Okay, this is a thing, tangentially related to the video, that's been bothering me since I read Bob's Intermission on The Dark Knight Rises. In it he complains about how Blake just "knows" that Bruce is Batman from meeting him at his orphanage which would be a legitimate criticism if it wasn't lifted right out of Tim Drake's backstory, a backstory that Bob never complains about when mentioning him.
On an unrelated note, even though I'm well aware that Bob said he wouldn't do any manga episodes (and thus, presumably, anime as well) I really want to see an episode comparing Japanese "Otaku" culture to Western "Geek" culture, because I find the parallels between the two subcultures (that grew mostly independent of each other) fascinating.
So, Bob, if you're reading this then... thanks for reading, I guess? Keep up the good work and have a nice life.
Cheerio.

Actually Tim Drake has always been portrayed as putting more detective work into figuring out who Batman was than "dude looks depressed, he must be Batman"

 

[Invadergray]

"Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, we've had enough of Batman?" - Bob Chipman.
I'm here to tell you that after 8 big picture episodes in the last 2 months about him... yes. Yes we are.

 

[triggrhappy94]

How does anyone keep all of that straight?

 

[MB202]

I remember when MovieBob made a comment about Robin needing to be in a new Batman movie and everyone started bitching and complaining about it, even though Bob explained himself, in a column, why "Batman needs a Robin". Really, I kind of agree, even though it seems most people only seem to see Robin as a nuisance and don't see all the 70+ years of Robin being by Batman's side...

 

[Kais86]

Spoiler: Mr_Terrific

Please do a Batgirl. That's way more confusing than Robin.. I've been subscribed to the entire Bat family for years and I still don't know what happened to Stephanie, Helena, Cassandra, or how Barbara Gordan is walking again. There's mention of a surgery in the first...ermm new first issue but since comics are weird...who knows.

I'd also like Bob to sort out wtf is up with the new 52. Again...I'm subscribed to over 20 of them and have no idea why DC's entire history is only 5 years long in some places, and much longer in others. For example... Blackest Night happened just before FP and the new 52. People fought and died and were reborn and stayed dead. Fast forward to New 52 and Blackest Night only happened to Green Lantern and Sinestro? Hell, most of the major plot points didn't happen because characters either don't exist, or don't know each other. ex:Superboy does not know Superman yet and the JSA does not exist. Or Why are there still multiple universes and What exactly was the point of Flashpoint?

Loving some of the new stories but the new 52 overall is more confusing than DC has ever been.

Okay, this is something of a sore subject for me, but I'll try to explain it without bias.

Okay, so the New 52. Simply put: this isn't the same universe the DCU used to be, gets a different acronym, and everything. Lady Shiva is about the same age as Dick Grayson, though we don't know if it's the same person or not, because that hasn't been expounded upon.

Assuming (this is a pretty big assumption also, because Lady Shiva AKA Sandra Wu-San/Wusan/whatever, is from Detroit, while Dick Grayson is from the North East.) this is the same Lady Shiva as before, and not just some pretender, she is too young for Cassandra Cain to be even 16 (the youngest she's ever been, keep in mind, Cass originally showed up at 18, got older, then younger, COMICS!) now, because she's 25ish.

I don't know what they did with Stephanie Brown, she hasn't been mentioned aside from supposedly showing up in Batman Inc. but she was also supposed to be Nightwing in the upcoming Smallville comic, however this was thrown out so we can have Barbara Gordon. Again.

Helena Berteneli.... I don't know, we have a Helena Wayne in the execrable World's Finest.

Barbara Gordon was fixed by a "miracle" until several months later, Gail Simone decided that it would actually be cybernetics that fix her (I'm not making this up, she kept banging on about miracles the entire time as well) and that's how she's up again.

The current DCnU doesn't all happen in the same timeframe, some of them happen now, some happen 5 years ago, the Jonah Hex stuff happens far earlier than that.

Now here comes the killer: the New 52 is a mess, none of the authors are talking to each other, and no one knows what anyone's going to do next. Not even the editors. So yes, this is a freaking huge mess.

Spoiler: DrgoFx

Batgirl next week? Or is there not enough to work with?

There have been roughly four or five bat girls to my knowledge, and Barbara's not even the first one, but is the most popular. As far as the last three go, it went Barbara, a girl called Cassandra Cain who was pretty much like a female version of Batman in my opinion, dark and such.

I take slight issue in what you said about Cassandra Cain, her costume might have been quite dark, intimidating, and perhaps a little creepy, but Cassandra Cain herself was nothing like Bruce Wayne. She was a very different character. She wasn't even all that dark, all things told, she didn't brood, she only hid when Getting ready to pounce on someone.

She didn't even get all mopey when someone she liked died, she would get upset, then she'd kick the snot out of whoever was responsible. Most importantly: she was actually pretty happy to be in her position, it was way better than the rest of her life had been, and she found purpose in life. We know this from when Batman decided to take it away from her.

 

[Kais86]

How does anyone keep all of that straight?

Don't, just simply don't. Whatever you think is the status quo now, won't be next week.

 

[beefpelican]

I dunno if I really buy the whole surrogate father thing. I know I never saw myself as robin. I saw myself as Batman! Why would a kid want to be the kidnap victim when they can be the superhero?

 

[KapnKerfuffle]

I always wondered why 1930-40's era comics had annoying kid sidekicks (Bucky, Robin, etc.) Bob's explanation makes a lot of sense.

 

[Strain42]

Supposedly they're bringing Carrie Kelly back into the fray to become Robin #6, so maybe we'll get a canonical female Robin who isn't a total screw-up in the part.

...I approve.

 

[Drummah]

SHERLOCK PIC.

Please do an episode on the BBC Sherlock series.
Ovaries around the world will thank you.

 

[lukesparow]

I've gotta say, I really dislike how much input the fans get on these stories.
It ruins any artistic integrity these comics have going for them. These people want to tell interesting stories, but raging fans just make sure they stick to their roots.

It's really holding back the medium.