The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Wargamer]

I really approach this from many different angles.

First, would I take issue in a 'historically accurate' Viking being black? Yes. Why? The words 'historically accurate'. Hate to break it to the Black Power brigade, but there's plenty of historical situations where Black people were either not present, or were firmly on the bottom rung, and I feel completely entitled to protest at you re-writing MY history to suit your own agendas, irrespective of what the specific facts of those events are; just because history isn't nice doesn't mean it should be re-written.

However, let's take a reality check here; Thor is not a historical documentary. Thor isn't even CLOSE to being historically accurate. There is probably more historical accuracy in the Space Wolves of the Warhammer 40,000 Universe than there is in Marvel's Asgardian pantheon. In short, I really could not care less that this band of 'Vikings' included a character who was blatantly asian, or a gatekeeper whose genetic relation to northeastern Europe is little to none.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I disagree that the history of racism is relevant, as such. It's only the racism that exists in society now that matters. However, that's just a minor quibble.

In general, though, surely the main thrust of the argument is so blatantly obvious so as to not be worth saying? It's always staggering that entitlement can blind people to reality so thoroughly.

Relevant in some ways, not in others. The black guy who says he's entitled to money because of what happened to his ancestors is full of shit. The black guy who's asking for help because his family still hasn't recovered economically has more of a point. The black guy being dragged behind the pickup truck driven by guys who were taught by their fathers and grandfathers that this sort of thing is ok is a victim of both old and new racism at the same time.

The current situation did not arise from a vacuum, so history is still relevant. Addressing the aftereffects of the past, such as employment opportunities, is worthwhile. Addressing the injustices of the past, committed and experienced by people who are now all dead, is pointless, wasteful, and only serves to drag the whole process out longer.

Oh, yes, completely, I just meant that the cause of the current racism isn't that relevant, only its current effects.

 

[GiantRaven]

I wonder what Bob thinks about DC's 90s/00s trend of replacing white comic book characters with characters showing a wider range of ethnic diversity.

Blue Beetle (White Ted Kord -> Hispanic Jaime Reyes)
Firestorm (White Ronnie Raymond -> Black Jason Rusch)
The Atom (White Ray Palmer -> Asian Ryan Choi)
Green Arrow (White Oliver Queen -> Multi-racial Connor Hawke)

I'm probably forgetting a few others as well.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

Tyler Perry? Oh LURD!!!


I can't wait to go see the Thor movie and I honestly don't know why I haven't yet

 

[Srdjan Tanaskovic]

I would like to point out that most of the people who did complain are in fact White Supremacist


that and Heimdall is called "the whitest of the God"

 

[DearFilm]

So according to Bob, embracing double standards is the only real way to treat our popular culture's derth of interesting or complex minority characters. So changing a Norse god's race was preferable to creating a new character who is black. Thor had an entire Earth-based realm that was set in modern day America, and yet it was less culturally diverse than Asgard.
This strikes me as a kind of racism in and of itself. It is as though you do not trust minorities or those who write them to create a new and unique character on their own, so you have to "gift" them characters who have already been created. You are allowing them to "prove" their racial equity only through the appropriation of another race's character. It's like if a black African chef wanted to prove his worth in a French kitchen, but rather than let him make his own recipe, gave him a recipe already perfected by a white French cook. This betrays an astounding amount of condescention on the part of anyone who argues this way.
Honestly, some characters can be changed and can benefit from said change in the long run. I think Spider-Man as a young black kid from Queens makes a lot of sense and could be interesting because this is the real world, and that character is set to reflect modern ideas and experience. A Norse god, however, seems to resist this change. Instead, we should be trying to create characters grounded in a racial identity, so "appropriation" instead becomes "creation."

there have also been instances where a race swap to a white person has taken away from unique characters that fall into different ethnicities. foe example, the dragon ball movie where goku is white. The last airbender could have had both unique inuit and asian characters. (although i did like how the fire nation where brown lol )

I agree 100%. Some characters are simply rooted in their ethnic identity, as much as we would like to claim that they are not. Indiana Jones, as a character, would be a completely different person were he black, not because of acting style or surface looks, but because of the life experiences that character would have had as a black person over a white person.
Swapping of any race, if the race actually impacts character, is a disservice to the character and those who created him.

 

[Ashoten]

O wow this is a topic I thought about before but didn't know it was a hot topic because of the Thor movie. I thought that actor was great as Himdal. Enough that race should be the last thing anyone talked about.

Yes! In a perfect world race wouldn't even be an issue and I hope more actors of any skin tone can get whatever roll they want. Only caviot to this is When I discovered that the King Pin in that DareDevil movie was a black man. This seemed far too close to the bad and unfortunate stereotype that surrounds poor black communities.

Is that casting racist or maybe it could allow a voice for the black community to express frustrations that many turn to crime because they feel like its the only way to get ahead in the world where they have limited or no opportunities?

Also what about historical pieces where a characters race is significant to their place in the plot and a driving force behind their motivations? Like if George Washington was played by a black man? Would you show that "ironically" or have all the actors wear masks to hide their race?

 

[Dastardly]

Skin Deep

Sometimes embracing a double standard is the right thing to do.

Watch Video

My hope is that all of the major detractors can respect a view like this:

1. It admits that this is, in fact, a double standard. It is unequal.
2. It points out that "unequal" isn't always "unfair," and that sometimes the appearance of inequality is simply a result of looking only at the small picture (har har, title pun).
3. It then encourages us to just let it slide.

You're not trying to tell people that it's not a double standard. You're not insulting their intellectual integrity... you're just questioning its relevance in this particular matter. That's a fair and balanced approach.

For some reason, a lot of apologists feel that the only way they can "win" is to claim that it is not a double standard, rather than by accepting the reality that it is an understandable and acceptable double standard. Pendulum swings one way, pendulum swings the other. That's not balance.

A well-presented opinion, Bob.

 

[Hayekian]

You remove the double standard by changing the standard: best actor gets the part. Unless it is a period piece about Victorian England, everything can be justified via creative license. Trying to compensate the horrors of slavery through movie roles is ridiculous and unbecoming. Best actor gets the job unless race is integral to the story being told. If Elcor can do Hamlet, then may the best man by Heimdall.

 

[MB202]

You know, speaking of racist and My Little Pony, anyone else remember that episode where all the ponies were scared of this one zebra who appeared to be of African descent? And how they automatically jumped to conclusions without even getting to know her or even talk to her?

 

[Chris Sandford]

i fail to see why race matters in society today. There wouldnt need to be any discussion of race in movie roles if people werent focused on it. Ya know i thought society has evolved past the superficial differences between us. If there any people entitled to special treatment it would be the Jews.

 

[Satosuke]

Bob, I disagree and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Ponyville is NOT an ideal world. It's a facade for the collectivist, fascist rule of the Solar Federation, as warned about by the prophets we know as Rush in their work 2112.

Joking aside, I don't really care who gets cast for what as long as its a good actor/actress, but I honestly don't agree with this 'we still need to pay them back for slavery' white guilt bullshit.

I haven't actually seen the movie yet, but if Idris Elba did a good job in the role, then more power to him, and I thought Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury was awesome. But, if ever a circumstance should arise where a casting director cast a black actor in a 'white' role solely because he wanted to cast a black actor in a white role, and said actor turns in a trash heap of a performance, you bet your ass I'd be mad about that. I wouldn't really be mad at the actor, though I'd likely criticize the performance. I'd be livid at the casting director for ruining a movie just because of some perceived moral obligation to stick it to the white man.

 

[RThaiRThai]

Ponies! But they were pretty racist too until the episode dealing with that resolved everything.

Does this mean Bob watches My Little Pony? Out of the internet celebrities I know, he seems like the most likely one.

 

[standokan]

I don't mind "race-swapping" characters but I agree, opinion or not, you got it right.

 

[pdgeorge]

Great... talk about a pissy issue like that when what is ACTUALLY something that would have been worth hearing about is what the fuck that thing was. I think I know, but my geek cred isn't high enough so I was interested in finding out.
Instead we get to listen to a lecture on racism. Yup. That was so much more fun to watch. I always love hearing about the horrors of racism when I just want to find out what some magic cube does in a fantasy world.

 

[Sknyjdwb]

Hogun has always been asian, he isn't an Aesir. Just some clarification.

 

[binvjoh]

I really, really liked this one.

On the other hand, can we please have a Samurai Pizza Cats too?

 

[cross_breed]

Gonna have to disagree here. Is there anything wrong with casting a black character in a white character's role? Absolutely not. But, we also must apply this to traditionally black roles. Not the über meaningful ones, where the race is important to the role (the idea of a white guy playing, say Frederick Douglass is pretty disturbing to me, as it should be), but, say for sake of example Luke Cage. Is he black in the comics? Yes. Would casting a white guy to play him in the hypothetical movie utterly ruin the character? No. You see, I don't like the double standard, but I don't see anything wrong with the casting decision of a black actor in Thor.

 

[bdcjacko]

After watching the Thor movie, I really wished there were more than 2 black guys and 1 Asian guy in Asgard. If you are saying their could be more, show them so the handful of non-honkies don't stand out.