The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[GeorgW]

Well said, and I completely agree with you, even though I'm a little biased against these kinds of double standards because of my culture (No selective slavery here, only pillaging and rape of all ethnicities ). Besides, you Americans are used to double standards, we really dislike it over here (still happens a lot).
The problem I have with this is that until all this crap, I wouldn't even have thought about his race. It saddens me that this is even necessary, why can't someone be hired and judged only by their performance?? Every review I've read has said something to the point of "The reason they got the black guy is because he's awesome, so stop whining!" I would much rather they just said "*Actor's name*'s performance was a high point of the movie." and ignore the people that complained, they don't even deserve to be acknowledged. I get that people want movies to be true to the source, but would you rather have some crappy white actor? Again, why can't an actor be judged by his own merits?
I just can't wait to see that movie!! Every clip I've seen with Heimdal has been awesome, and you did recommend it. Besides, it's a comic book movie about the norse religion, how can I not see it??
Off topic, I really hope this thread won't be a regular place for my modding duties.

 

[Draconalis]

One African tribe capture another African tribe and sold them to the Spaniards who treated the captured Africans worse than any slave holder.

That's all I really have to say about racism in history.

^This.

All this "slavery is the white man's fault" nonsense rings a little false considering that black people captured/enslaved/sold eachother as well, so they aren't really any better are they?

Not to imply that there wasn't a huge amount of wrongdoing on our side, a whole ton in fact. But it wasn't just whitey doing it.

In fact... ironically, bring slaves to America and selling them encompassed an entire spectrum of racial unity.... except Asians, but they don't really count as people, right?

(Disclaimer: I love Asians. They are a great people)

 

[caballitomalo]

Im a dominican. I live in the Dominican Republic. Black Norse God? NOT A PROBLEM... hell, if I weren't a regular internet user, I wouldn't even have noticed the black dude in the first place.

Thats me anyway.

(1st post here... ever.)

 

[Necromancer1991]

Well at least you finally got that out there, honestly I couldn't agree more with what you said. Yes It's a double standard that white people turning I don't know.....purple with green stripes....is okay, but the opposite is open to debate is because as you said our mixed history (before you go "that's all in the past", just look at gay rights and what have you, it's what I refer to the as "The race debate version 2.0"). I'm of the opinion that any kind of race-swap is OKAY, as long as I get a good performance from the actor in question(which does in fact mean those train-wrecks like Last Airbender and that Dragonball abomination are NOT okay, because they sucked), another example I can think of where this was an issue was the Prince of Persia movie which was good, so I didn't really care either way, I'm not the type no wag my finger at people screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" when they want to change something I like in a minor way (Like the color slider on any given character), but you will get that reaction from me if you have a complete paradigm shift on any given work (Live-action adaptions of anime (specifically american ones), etc). Also just because Will smith got Top billing a LOT doesn't mean there are enough movies with black actors

 

[MajoraPersona]

At one time, people of all races could be property together. They'd just go to any other country, even Italy and Greece, and snatch some people. In Ancient Rome, Greeks apparently made great teachers and actors.

'White' is incredibly vague. Just as there are numerous Native American tribes, and numerous African tribes, there are multiple groups of White people. And they've gone to war amongst one another, just as the other groups have.

In other words, Bob was wrong. History was much, much worse than he said it was.

 

[rypper88]

Off topic. Dont know why there should be outrage at the casting of Dragonball seeing as Goku is an Alien from a different galaxy who happens to have similar traits to human beings. As well as he comes from a fictional universe that is not Asian specific... wanna get angry at Dragonball (aside from the fact that it sucked) ? Well then get angry about the fact that we did not see the King of the planet earth... the Dog wearing a Suit.

As for our inherent double standard... well it's an imperfect world but the general allowance that western culture has for change now is far greater than that of earlier times and perhaps we are really moving on to a slightly less crappy world, where the question of race is replaced by a question of character.

I'm Biggi and thats the Biggi-Picture

 

[Shoqiyqa]

As a comic book fan the reason why I rejected the idea of a black spiderman and why I'd probably dislike a black Batman is that personally speaking I can be a bit of a nut for detail. More simply put I like it better when they match and when they don't it annoys me in the same way it might annoy a neat freak if a fork is out of place or something.

I can agree with this, to the extent I still mean to find the passage in Tolkein's writing that describes the differing appearances of different Hobbits from different parts of the Shire to see whether or not a Pakistani woman should, imo, be allowed to play a Hobbit *dives behind asbestos wall* ...

... but I can see another problem with the idea of a black Batman.

Think about Batman's back-story.

Origin [http://www.comicvine.com/batman/29-1699/]

While leaving a movie theater for home, wealthy philanthropist Thomas Wayne and his wife Martha were accompanied by their 8 year-old son, Bruce. As they stepped onto Park Row (now called Crime Alley) a masked gunman called Joe Chill came out of the shadows. Chill shot and killed both Thomas and Martha in cold blood right in front of their young boy. Bruce was traumatized at the sight of his parents' death and his life would never be the same. After his parents' death, Bruce was raised by his wise and loyal butler Alfred Pennyworth and inherited his family's vast fortune as well as his father's company, Wayne Enterprises. ... With so many skills acquired, Bruce considered joining the FBI but learned that he could never fight crime within the current legal system.

The same page says Batman was first published in 1939. Wealthy black philanthropists with a wise and loyal butler and a vast fortune, in a city in the USA in 1939? Alright, him being unable to fight crime within the FBI matches being black in the USA in 1939 fairly well, but the rest of that story just doesn't.

A modern Batman, born after 1990, could be black and have that back-story ... just. [http://www.blackentrepreneurprofile.com/black-billionaires/]

I'll tell you who should be black but probably won't be in most cases: God, Michael, Gabriel, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Joshua, Abraham ...

Specifically:

World's most ancient race traced in DNA study [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/worlds-most-ancient-race-traced-in-dna-study-1677113.html]

The San people of southern Africa, who have lived as hunter-gatherers for thousands of years, are likely to be the oldest population of humans on Earth, according to the biggest and most detailed analysis of African DNA. The San, also known as bushmen, are directly descended from the original population of early human ancestors who gave rise to all other groups of Africans and, eventually, to the people who left the continent to populate other parts of the world.

A study of 121 distinct populations of modern-day Africans has found that they are all descended from 14 ancestral populations and that the differences and similarities of their genes closely follows the differences and similarities of their spoken languages.

Yes, I have seen Dogma. I did say "in most cases" there.

 

[Orekoya]

I reject on the grounds that asgardians do not have relaxer.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

the man himself Idris Elba doesn't want race to be a part of the discussion when it comes to his character.
I believe in casting that is only Racially profiling when the character is WRITTEN as that particular race. and by that I mean not just a casual "he's white btw" from the writer.

The Reason James Bond is white is because back when the character was originally written you wouldn't have seen a black guy in such a position. especially in that backwards and primitive time of segregation and prejudice...

Today? why couldn't he be? why couldn't (for example) IDRIS ELBA (one of my country's FINEST film actors) PLAY A BRITISH SECRET AGENT? Just throwing it out there!

seriously! think back over Casino Royale and just copy Paste Elba over Daniel Craig? bond is pretty ambiguous as it is right?

Well unfortunately, the fan theory of 'James Bond' just being a code name, a theory that would erase all continuity issues, issues with different actors and levels of seriousness and allow any type of race into the role... isn't canon. James Bond being an actual person is.

While it could still work, granted, it would be much harder to pull off.

yeah I guess your right. It feels like the character of bond has become more than just one man in a sort of Timelord way but I think at the end of the day they could get away with it. be a ballsy move. He would definitely play the shit out of it though! ;p

Regardless of whether or not "james Bond" is officially a codename, it's essentially become so because of the way the films have been produced. Daniels Craig's Bond is supposed to be just starting out in the espionage business. There's no conceivable reason why James Bond can't be black, or "The Doctor" for that matter. Hell "The Doctor" could be black and female if they found a good enough actor.

 

[Skjutentrast]

As a Swede the whole THOR thing is mostly a joke to us anyways.
Thor in Norse myth is QUITE different from the THOR in the US. So, If they want to cast a great dark-skinned actor I don't give a fuck, since Norse mythology really seems to mostly be an inspiration.
(http://satwcomic.com/nordic-halloween)

But, I don't think that you can inherit guilt. Never mind that European colonialism and technology have risen the standard of for the former colonies. (See india)
So, I really feel that race isn't an issue anymore. But, I'm speaking for northern Europe. Our hands are (Mostly) clean in this issue.

 

[Roganzar]

Can we have an entire episode on Samurai Pizza Cats?

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Yes, that guy was awesome in Thor. I wont disagree. But making a white character black, because of a historical slavery that ended a hell of a long time ago, as an excuse is retarded. Black actors today sell multi billion pound record sales, front billion pound films. Look at Snoop Dogg, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman and P Diddy? Are these people considered poor minorities struggling? Race is not the issue, the issue is the character should be what the comics state them to be whether black, white, yellow or green. Whatever. Stop using anchient history as a reason why certain things are ok because that in itself is racism i would of thought.

I applaud you. To me, using slavery as an excuse is pretty retarded and makes no sense to me. My people were poor as fuck back in Europe so I highly doubt my ancestors had slaves, if not were slaves themselves, so it's beyond me why that has to be thrown in my face.

OT: Look, I thought the guys performance was awesome, and I wasn't bothered by the choice of him for that role, I thought it was perfect. What I do have an issue with is how I have no right as a "whitey" to complain about those things because of what my ancestors may have done, to me that's utter bullshit. I thought we weren't supposed to judge people based on past events like that, oh wait, how stupid of me, it's not possible. We live in a shit world, so I guess double standards are okay then. /sarcasm.

 

[Wandrecanada]

Bob you once again get to the heart of things and properly explain the meaning of cultural privilege to those who may not have had a graspable definition of it's complex construct. For that I can only thank you. If there is something more I could do to help you hammer this point home, ask and I will act.

 

[MatsVS]

Funny how 'historical precedence' immediately gets equated by stupid white bigots as 'SINS OF THE FATHER' as they desperately try to rationalize their own biases and dismiss the concept of white privilege. Funny and sad, obviously. Stupid is as stupid does.

Bite me, i'm not a racist and i'm not guilty of a damn thing, i just don't like being forced to feel guilty for something i never took part in.
Sins of the fathers indeed.

You missed the point again.

It's not about the sins of the father, its about the cultural nonequivalence which is the direct result of generations of racism. That makes it morally responsible to recast a white character as black, yet not the other way around. If this makes you feel somehow slighted, that is the hard-wired white privilege which has been ingrained in your subconscious through years of the cultural doctrine of white superiority. Word of the wise: Get over it, because the world is getting over you.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

I couldn't care less about the race, but if I'm a fan of something I want it to be exactly the same.
If in an X-men movie Magneto, my favorite character there by far would be black I would be fucking pissed!

Magneto is a bit different though, as his ethnicity (Jewish) is important to his backstory. Meanwhile there isn't anything in particular that demands Heimdall be white other than the fact that the culture that developed the mythology that the character is loosely based on was very white.

Note that Marvel's version of the Asgardians are pretty much space aliens from another dimension, so there's still no need for them to all be white for them to make sense within the context of the Marvel universe.

Changing Magneto's skin color however wouldn't make a ton of sense because him being a German born Jew is important to the character.

I'll agree that changing a character's race in situations where their race and the culture they came from is important to the character is a bad idea, but when the only argument against the race change is that the culture that wrote the mythology that the character is loosely based on is largely white - its harder to justify being upset about especially when the guy they cast did such a good job with the character.

 

[SPARTANXIII]

Ponyville, as the ideal world?!

Guess who took over Yahtzee as my Favourite video maker!

 

[Ericb]

You know, we are in serious need of some hard statisticis with a broad field of reference in relation to the ratio between white artistas Vs. everybody else in Hollywood, because there seemes to be a LOT of people who just don't see how it is skewed towards the former.

That would be great research to show how this is not a non-issue at all.

Definitely agree.

The Poor White Man card seems to be getting played quite a lot on the forums recently, and its annoying as hell.

Most definitely. I saw a few precious arguments that got me thinking about dangers of double-standards of any nature whatsoeverer, even the ones that MovieBob categorized as benign.

Even so, those were precious few indeed.

The character was a Norse GOD. A GOD can shape shift, control elemental forces, move the sea and the sun, wreck shit for no reason, is it so hard to think that they can also be whatever color they want in human form?

Well, its been proven that it's hard for a lot of people. Though I wouldn't say it's for all for racist reasons, thankfully.

The dude who played Heimdall was great, so the crucial part was safe and sound.

 

[michiehoward]

im a the only one that dosent give a damn about the characters skin color VS the actors skin color? Do you want to know what matters?...What character and what actor..thats what matters..

 

[Loonerinoes]

Am I upset about a black guy being cast in a white role? Nah. Don't care really. ESPECIALLY if he was as awesome as everyone says. I think they are allowed to change a character, especially through if they are modernizing it.

My only issue is that we shouldn't be allowing double standards at all. Sure, slavery was one HELL of a double standard that puts the "movie role" double standard to quintuple shame to the power of infinity, but a lesser injustice is still an injustice, and should not be allowed. Me robbing your store doesn't give you the right to step on my son's foot.

Am I being idealistic? Not exactly, because I'm not saying we shouldn't tolerate double standards, or that the only acceptable situation is when there are no double standards, only that we should constantly be aiming for as few as possible. We should not give free passes to a group who was fucked over centuries ago, simply because as long as they get that free pass, we as a society will never truly move on. It will continue to haunt and hurt both sides and I'd prefer we work towards that no longer happening.

Spot on I think. One of the things that has always pissed me off in the conflict around places like the Gaza strip and such is that everyone puts the blame on the Palestinians and none on the Israelis. And why? Because the latter's religion (Judaism) was oppressed throughout two millenia of our history. But their army slaughtering civilians in Gaza is still slaughter, no matter how it is dressed.

I've really got to stop posting here honestly. I will admit I haven't watched this one and I don't think I will - there's little about MovieBob's style I find attractive these days I think, given the amount of rationalizations and excuses for his points of view he's willing to bring up in that smug accent of his. What drew me here, however, is the description that double-standards are sometimes a good thing.

No. They never are. Because what they lead to inevitably is always the youtube link I provide here. And no amount of feeble excuses and rationalizations will change the truth of what happens when the shit really hit the fan, because we decided to say that double standards are cool - all because we refuse to admit that we, as human beings, can't take responsibility for our actions and opinions properly:

 

[de5gravity]

Well, I have to say I don't enjoy your movie reviews but I totally agree with you this time.