Yeah when they introduced Sam Jackson as nick fury, my brain disabled my ability to ask any questions, he's been great too, though due to story structure you don't get a whole hell of alot of him in the movies.ironlordthemad said:
The Big Picture: Skin Deep
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Nope, sorry Bob I dont really remember that whole "melanin level" thing...I wasnt around back then. I dont remember the whole "segregation" thing either...I wasnt around back then. I do remember that in HS I got suspended for calling a guy a stupid n****r when I lost my temper at him calling me a cracker fag at least 3x a day, for some reason he found it to be the top of hilarity, but apparently my doing it is a hate crime. Now really I dont care one way or another about the Thor casting and was glad to see Elba doing a good job with the part. But I am getting sick of videos and discussions like this that basically tell me that since the people in history were douchebags I should feel guilty to this day and just accept the double standard. And for the record I am Polish and Irish and never really hear anyone defending how they were treated in the past.
I don't know whether this connotates that I am a racist in US standards, but I was a tad disappointed when I saw a major mythological figure of my culture portrayed in somewhat bizzare manner for the region it originated in.
However, I was also equally disappointed when Aang from The Last Airbender was portrayed by a 'caucasian' kid rather than an Asian one. Heck, I found it insulting that no one in the whole cast of The Last Airbender was Asian.
I think most people dissaprove the decision of a black person playing the role of a Norse Mythological God because it breaks their immersion. I mean, I can't speak for anyone, but that was the case for me.
Yet again my dissaproval of this role should not offend anyone as I would equally be disappointed if a white caucasian guy played an Egyptian in a movie. (Hence, why I don't like 60s egyptian movies)
And If this thing is a part of whole 'Patching up the old wounds' fest, dont you think it is only fair to leave out other cultures outta this. Like, you know, those who actually never enslaved black people in the first place?
If my post has offended anyone then dont worry. The effects are only temporary
However, I was also equally disappointed when Aang from The Last Airbender was portrayed by a 'caucasian' kid rather than an Asian one. Heck, I found it insulting that no one in the whole cast of The Last Airbender was Asian.
I think most people dissaprove the decision of a black person playing the role of a Norse Mythological God because it breaks their immersion. I mean, I can't speak for anyone, but that was the case for me.
Yet again my dissaproval of this role should not offend anyone as I would equally be disappointed if a white caucasian guy played an Egyptian in a movie. (Hence, why I don't like 60s egyptian movies)
And If this thing is a part of whole 'Patching up the old wounds' fest, dont you think it is only fair to leave out other cultures outta this. Like, you know, those who actually never enslaved black people in the first place?
If my post has offended anyone then dont worry. The effects are only temporary
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
I've been a viewer of The Big Picture since it started without being registered with The Escapist. This was the video that compelled me to register just so I could leave a comment saying "thank you."
This video is exactly the considered, rational response that should quiet all the 'reverse-racism' complaints. It was clear, succinct, and very well done. Interesting to note also that everyone got up in arms (I hope only proverbially) about Heimdall being black, but there was much less consternation about Hogan (also normally European) being played by a Japanese actor. Possibly because Hogan isn't part of the actual mythology like Heimdall, but also possibly because there are some who dislike the encroachment of black people more than other ethic groups.
I've been a viewer of The Big Picture since it started without being registered with The Escapist. This was the video that compelled me to register just so I could leave a comment saying "thank you."
This video is exactly the considered, rational response that should quiet all the 'reverse-racism' complaints. It was clear, succinct, and very well done. Interesting to note also that everyone got up in arms (I hope only proverbially) about Heimdall being black, but there was much less consternation about Hogan (also normally European) being played by a Japanese actor. Possibly because Hogan isn't part of the actual mythology like Heimdall, but also possibly because there are some who dislike the encroachment of black people more than other ethic groups.
You know what, all in all I do agree with you, my big problem with the movie though isn't that they cast a white character as black. its that they cast a character based on a white GOD as black, and belive it or not there actually are quite a few people out there (myself included) who still follow that religion. Sure you might say "its just a movie" or "its just a comic book" and in a sense you would be right. FOR ANY OTHER COMIC BOOK. but this is THOR we are talking about, this is the one that is based almost completely on a real world religion.
In fact, when I really think about it, its not even so much the fact that the studio decided to fuck around with one of the very important facets of my religion that pisses me off. its their response to the general outcry against it by alot of us. Instead of simply saying "he was the best actor" or flat out admitting that they where doing it in order to add some racial diversity to what would otherwise have been a predominantly white cast they instead start throwing around blanket terms like racist.
I'm not racist, I'm not angry about it because of his race, I'm angry about it because of them choosing to disrespect my faith and my culture and then trying to make me and people like me out to be the bad guys.
while we're at it, lets cast mohammed as asian and malcom x as white, see how the studios react to that.
In fact, when I really think about it, its not even so much the fact that the studio decided to fuck around with one of the very important facets of my religion that pisses me off. its their response to the general outcry against it by alot of us. Instead of simply saying "he was the best actor" or flat out admitting that they where doing it in order to add some racial diversity to what would otherwise have been a predominantly white cast they instead start throwing around blanket terms like racist.
I'm not racist, I'm not angry about it because of his race, I'm angry about it because of them choosing to disrespect my faith and my culture and then trying to make me and people like me out to be the bad guys.
while we're at it, lets cast mohammed as asian and malcom x as white, see how the studios react to that.
It's not just about wrongs committed generations ago -- it's about the fact that racism is still a very prevalent force in America and in the world today. It's about all the myriad benefits that exist for white people. A study was done on how much monetary compensation a group of white college students would have to receive in exchange for giving up all of the white privileges that they receive in American society. The figure was in the millions of dollars.Fragmented_Faith said:
Really? The universities of America are being flooded with unqualified minorities and whites are being pushed out? That's not what any statistics show.Wrds said:
Look, it's totally naive to think that because the culture of the past was more overtly racist than it is now that we should all pretend like race isn't a factor. The famous metaphor for this is a footrace where one of the participants falls way behind because he's been running with shackles on his feet for the first half. Then the shackles come off and the other guy who gained a big lead is saying "Hey, it's a fair race now, it's a totally unfair double standard to let him catch up." Poor white people, let's all shed a tear.
Because this sounds a bit like "my people versus your people" thing, I feel I should mention I'm white. Anyway, if you don't think people of color are disadvantaged in America, you simply aren't paying attention, or more likely you don't want to acknowledge the privilege we enjoy. As Louis CK once said, "I'm not saying white people are better. I'm saying being white is clearly better... If it was an option, I would re-up with white every year. I'm gonna stick with white, thank you." What was Louis talking about? Wealth, poverty rates, culture prominence, arrest and incarceration rates, university enrollment, representation in elected government... I mean I could go on and on about white people having advantages but there are whole books on that subject.Thedek said:
Because white people got caught with there hand in the cookie jar one to many timesThedek said:For that matter, wasn't it the Spanish to started taking African slaves in the first place? Why does no one insist they should have to bend over backwards?LulzOdin said:I don't know whether this connotates that I am a racist in US standards, but I was a tad disappointed when I saw a major mythological figure of my culture portrayed in somewhat bizzare manner for the region it originated in.
However, I was also equally disappointed when Aang from The Last Airbender was portrayed by a 'caucasian' kid rather than an Asian one. Heck, I found it insulting that no one in the whole cast of The Last Airbender was Asian.
I think most people dissaprove the decision of a black person playing the role of a Norse Mythological God because it breaks their immersion. I mean, I can't speak for anyone, but that was the case for me.
Yet again my dissaproval of this role should not offend anyone as I would equally be disappointed if a white caucasian guy played an Egyptian in a movie. (Hence, why I don't like 60s egyptian movies)
And If this thing is a part of whole 'Patching up the old wounds' fest, dont you think it is only fair to leave out other cultures outta this. Like, you know, those who actually never enslaved black people in the first place?
If my post has offended anyone then dont worry. The effects are only temporary
While I find most arguments here nothing short of utterly amusing(and completely stupid - especially the one in the video with the anti-white slant) what none of you seem to get is that they're COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
The one thing ol' Adolf(as this is a thread full of racists and racist anti-racists and everything in between, I'm going to assume I don't need to say his last name) was right about is that it is a "struggle between the races."
It doesn't matter who is right, only who is left(I love twisting that old anti-war quote). Because the last race left standing gets to determine who was right. So all you racists, anti-racists, please keep in mind that you do not have the moral high ground no matter what position you're arguing(whether that position is black power, white power, brown power, or power for all or something else entirely) because morality is subjective, and at the end of the day all that really matters is that the people most able to impose their views on what is "right" are the ones in the right.
I hope that made sense, I'm up late with insomnia and slightly intoxicated.
The one thing ol' Adolf(as this is a thread full of racists and racist anti-racists and everything in between, I'm going to assume I don't need to say his last name) was right about is that it is a "struggle between the races."
It doesn't matter who is right, only who is left(I love twisting that old anti-war quote). Because the last race left standing gets to determine who was right. So all you racists, anti-racists, please keep in mind that you do not have the moral high ground no matter what position you're arguing(whether that position is black power, white power, brown power, or power for all or something else entirely) because morality is subjective, and at the end of the day all that really matters is that the people most able to impose their views on what is "right" are the ones in the right.
I hope that made sense, I'm up late with insomnia and slightly intoxicated.
While I do agree with a lot that has been said. I still cannot condone the "ends justifies the means" idea. A double standard is not going to bring us any closer to a resolution, in fact I believe it will only make it worse. Being OK with a double standard because some people in the past did stuff we find reprehensible today... I just don't follow that. A double standard is bad, no matter how "noble" the reason.
First of all, I never said anything about unqualified minorities, I made it clear that I was talking about minorities with equal grades.PattyG said:
Second of all, you spend a week on the University of Texas campus and tell me there are more Whites there than Asians, or Indians.
I'm not a racist, but I see what I see. That analogy of yours is laughable and doesn't speak for the whole picture. There's a civil rights act. If there's any discrimination in the workplace, said person is sued. I'm not going to tolerate double standards, regardless of history. I made that clear. I'm not going to be made to feel like I have to tolerate another race, or help them play catch up, that's just silly. I see every person, as a person. There is no race, we're all humans, there's so little difference between us genetically, and I'm choosing not to recognize it.
Just because shit happened in the past, doesn't mean I need to feel guilty or responsible for my great great grandfather's actions. And neither should a black man feel he deserves an apology for something that didn't happen actually happen to him personally, we're passed that already.
But you can bet your ass, if there was any real racial discrimination going on today, I'd be on the front line against it.
I've already spoken more on the subject than I ever want to, good day.
I've never been to UT, but a quick search of their demographics found this: White is 58% of the undergraduate student body, 17% asian/pacific islander.Wrds said:
Anyway, I'm not saying anyone should feel guilty or personally responsible for actions of the past. But I find it interesting how so few white folks want to acknowledge just how good we have it. It's great that you have such a noble and enlightened view of race, but that's not the way a lot of America is and to pretend otherwise is just allowing the problem to continue by ignoring it. As white people we have the chips stacked in our favor in a number of ways, both overt and subtle. The civil rights act doesn't mean the races are now on an equal playing field.
My big problem with the change was the complete and utter disregard for the evolutionary process. Black people are black because their skin protects them from the effects of the sun in an environment where there is a lot of sun to be had. White people are white because they don't experience as much sun so they don't have to fear skin cancer, but they have a harder time gaining vitamin D as a consequence.
Thor and his kin are Nordic and they need that white skin so they don't get things like osteoporosis, but then again the whole "god" factor can explain away that inconsistency.
Thor and his kin are Nordic and they need that white skin so they don't get things like osteoporosis, but then again the whole "god" factor can explain away that inconsistency.
Wait, you actually BELIEVE the norse gods exist? that if you die an honorable warriors death you'll go to valhalla. That valhalla actually exists?Ulfrick said:
Or are you actually just saying you believe this becuase you're "kind of spiritual" and you don't really like the standard religions for your part of the world and you want to be a bit alternative, so hey, lets pick the norse gods.
I mean you could pick Adad, Babylonian god of weather, statues of which I guarantee you are more impressive than any produced of the norse gods (exhibition available at the berlin national muselum), were worshipped by more people, were an awful lot older and have about as much relationship to the culture you grew up in but I guess theres no comic books made of them.
These "Gods" being exclusively white is just another happy bonus I suppose. Just like all of humanity. Oh wait...
I call shenanigans.
Totally valid question. What's weird is that because Banner is a "normal" human it probably wouldn't be as big a deal if a minority played it. Because Heimdall is a deity, even though nobody believes in those gods anymore, there's probably more wrath there. Which is doubly silly because in the movie the Gods are basically aliens anyway and having been worshiped in Scandinavia seems to be totally incidental. Anyway, I would guess if it was between Denzel Washington and Billy Baldwin, almost nobody would prefer Billy. As a person of some Asian ancestry, I feel it's worth asking: If there was a movie about a physicist with repression issues, wouldn't an Asian guy make sense? I vote John Cho to play Hulk.Fwee said:
Alright, I've spent some time mulling over this, and even though it's doubtful Bob (or many other people at all) will read this, I figured I'd toss it out there. Some of this covers ground I've gone over before.
For starters, all of this stuff about the horrors of the white man oppressing the black man is pretty much bull. Yes, in the last few centuries we saw a brief period of time where this was the case. Throughout most of human history though, that was hardly the case. As I'm sure many people might remember from their world history classes, human civilization largely started with "The Fertile Crescent". The people that lived there? Not whites.
In the overall scheme of things white guys were pretty much the primitive savages that were running around in hides, swining from trees, and living in caves. You know, the stereotype certain racists make about darker skinned peoples. If we showed up in civilization at all, it was usually as slaves. The lighter skinned peoples in the region, like the hebrews, wound up being enslaved by the Egyptians.
I'm being intentionally brief but power shifted over a long period of time. We had the rise of the greeks who fought off attempts to enslave them en-masse (movies like 300 are overblown depictions loosely based on real events), and then the romans, but of course those people were generally dusky or olive skinned, us white guys were getting conquered and enslaved left and right by the roman empire that stomped all over Europe. Rome wound up falling, and then out of the dark ages the white guys arose finally carrying the torch of civilization that we pretty much built on the ashes of rome. Indeed one of the reasons why religion dominated those civlizations was because it was the church that was keeping a lot of the records from the Romans alive... and well, that's a side point.
In the last few centuries white guys managed to pull ahead, build up all kinds of massive technology, and become the dominant world power, but understand that anyone who tries to pull a "sweep of history" arguement in defense of black people is being a complete idiot. Especially with the US, while we DID keep slaves, it was basically for five bloody minutes globally speaking. When I look at what happened to the people my ancestors were from, and for how long, I am not buying any arguments of racial guilt because we got our moment. Besides which when you get technical all of the morality that did away with slavery in "modern times" came from white people, despite the passing of thousand of years it certainly didn't seem anyone else did it.
I'll also say that one thing people tend to forget is that the black slaves were not collected by white guys heading into Africa with guns and nets. The were purchused from other black guys. Traders used to load up on goods to trade in the Middle East and Africa, and use those goods to buy slaves which could be sold for more money back in Europe and America. Indeed if you know anything about slave ships (and I do from some reading) and have looked at the wreckage of ships like the pirate ship Whydah (which was originally intended for slaving before it was captured) they were set up to receive and display slaves on deck because for a number of reasons they generally didn't want to go on land in the areas where the slaves were being sold, either for fear of infection/disease, or because Muslims didn't want white men on Muslim soil. They slaves used to be made to row themselves and their owners out to the boats, where they were examined and sent down into the hold if a deal could be reached. Basically the popular fiction of the slave trade, is just that... a popular fiction. In reality most slaves were sold by their own people (ethnically speaking) in many cases being the prisoners taken in tribal wars or whatever. Plenty of books on the subject.
Once you get past all of the white guilt crap, and realize what BS there is, there is very little to really rationalize why you should have a dual standard in the media. Truthfully the actual PROBLEM is that there just aren't that many black creators of things like TV shows, comics, or anything else. To start seeing more black characters what you need is the black community to get enough people interested in writing, drawing, and similar things, so they dedicate themselves to it, and then from that creative pool a few will begin to see their work get accepted. That will lead to more movies being made with black characters, more comics with black super heroes (and movies), and more science fiction novels with black protaganists, etc...
Right now the situation is that whole "git rich or die trying" mentality, and the associated problems guys like Bill Cosby have talked about. Simply put in US black culture, blacks consider it wrong to live normally, and fall into a rut, or to try and throw themselves at an industry like comics, knowing that the odds are against them, and that even if they succeed they probably aren't going to be super rich. Rather they'd rather play the odds by doing something like basketball, or take acting lessons and hope to become a movie star, or turn to crime. It's either the very top, or the very bottom, stuff in the middle like "writer guy" just doesn't appeal, which is why it's so bloody rare and doesn't have much of an impact.
There is absolutly no excuse to change Heimdall's ethnicity, other than political correctness. The arguement that it's okay to do this, but not to "flip" a black character over to a white person because of there being so few black characters, when it's the same thing (and equally ridiculous) is simply wrong. If you want to see more black characters, then you need to encourage more people in black America to go to school, and become writers ans artists to create those characters.
To be honest in cases where we have seen characters "flipped" to white actors, there usually have been some excuses, among them of course finding someone who could actually play the role. A very differant situation from the "Heimdall" situation where there were probably a lot of white guys on the market who could have done that. Heimdall was "flipped" simply to have a black guy, there was no other reason. In the case of say "Prince Of Persia", I can't think of one Arabic actor who could have pulled it off. Heck, I can't even think of that many Arabic actors, how many people of Arabic ethnicity actually work in Hollywood? I mean sure, if you could find me a good Arabic actor who looked the part, could carry the acting, and do the Choreography as wekk as Jake could, and who applied for the role, then I'd argue there was some racism involved, but honestly I very much doubt that was the case.
When it comes to situations like the Heimdall thing, and race in general, I'll point a finger to Asia. It was a long time before those of asian ethnicity had a strong prescence in comics, but it happened because they got invested in the medium, and started producing artists and writers. They introduced those comics to other markets, and since the work was genuinely good, it began to inspire them. You then saw the eastern and western take on comics cross pollinating, and influances from both affecting both markets. Nowadays there are a decent number of asian characters even in American comics, but that is largely because of there being decent numbers of asian writers and creators.
Now, I will point out that in the course of these arguements I do tend to notice a lot of people who are black or hispanic nowadays mentionining asians as an exception to racism because their penetration into culture hasn't been unnoticed. The thing is though that they worked long and hard for that, and as there really wasn't much actual racism present, they succeeded. Back in the bad old days there were plenty of racial slurs for them too, used just as much as the "N" word or various insults towards Hispanics and Latinos. When racism subsided, they took the oppertunities, and that's where the big differance is. That black kid who blows off school to go play basketball, aiming at being the next Michael Jordan, who likes comics might just put down that ball and go pay attention in english class, and/or cultivate their drawing skill. Chances are he won't ever make it into comics, but if enough of them do this, eventually some will, and then we'll see black comic characters people will appreciate, without people needing to resort to the travesty of politically correct casting desicians. See, like most people, I don't care what color a super hero's skin happens to be, what I care about is a good character, and good storylines (and decent artwork of course). I think "Spawn" sort of demonstrated how little ethncity matters to a comic character. It's just that most creators tend to make characters of their own race (call it self projection and personal power fantasies even if they don't admit it), there ARE execeptions, especially when dealing with very prolific creators, but that's what they are, exceptions and not the rule. That's why you need more black creators to solve the problem, and for it to work they need to earn their way into those positions.
Ah well, I'm rambling, but that's my thoughts on the subject. No need to correct me on the history part, this was a long post, and I was being brief and basic intentionally. I'm well aware of there being exceptions in there to some of what I said, but this wasn't meant to be an all inclusive treatise on the subjetct since it was all leading up to my points about comic books (and heck the creative industries in general) and casting.
Like many things I find myself disagreeing with Bob, he leans pretty far away from me on the political spectrum I think, and also tends to be a little too narrow in his thinking. I think it's absurd to make a point based on racism, when racism was the way of the world in the time periods he was talking about, and what's more it had been going on for thousands of years. If you want to get technical white people didn't create racism, but we WERE the ones who pretty much ended it, at least within our territories like the USA, and this at a time when we're acting as powers with global reaches. All of this, when in reality we're probably the planet's "late bloomers" and wound up getting it more than anyone before the last few centuries. "White Guys" as we think of them (ie Saxons and such) were not really a big deal until after the Dark Ages ended, so that means we've had what? A thousand years, out of which we've been dominant for 500 or 600 or so... compared to the scope of history before that?
Like it or not, the above points are what I tend to use to make white supremecists cry.
For starters, all of this stuff about the horrors of the white man oppressing the black man is pretty much bull. Yes, in the last few centuries we saw a brief period of time where this was the case. Throughout most of human history though, that was hardly the case. As I'm sure many people might remember from their world history classes, human civilization largely started with "The Fertile Crescent". The people that lived there? Not whites.
In the overall scheme of things white guys were pretty much the primitive savages that were running around in hides, swining from trees, and living in caves. You know, the stereotype certain racists make about darker skinned peoples. If we showed up in civilization at all, it was usually as slaves. The lighter skinned peoples in the region, like the hebrews, wound up being enslaved by the Egyptians.
I'm being intentionally brief but power shifted over a long period of time. We had the rise of the greeks who fought off attempts to enslave them en-masse (movies like 300 are overblown depictions loosely based on real events), and then the romans, but of course those people were generally dusky or olive skinned, us white guys were getting conquered and enslaved left and right by the roman empire that stomped all over Europe. Rome wound up falling, and then out of the dark ages the white guys arose finally carrying the torch of civilization that we pretty much built on the ashes of rome. Indeed one of the reasons why religion dominated those civlizations was because it was the church that was keeping a lot of the records from the Romans alive... and well, that's a side point.
In the last few centuries white guys managed to pull ahead, build up all kinds of massive technology, and become the dominant world power, but understand that anyone who tries to pull a "sweep of history" arguement in defense of black people is being a complete idiot. Especially with the US, while we DID keep slaves, it was basically for five bloody minutes globally speaking. When I look at what happened to the people my ancestors were from, and for how long, I am not buying any arguments of racial guilt because we got our moment. Besides which when you get technical all of the morality that did away with slavery in "modern times" came from white people, despite the passing of thousand of years it certainly didn't seem anyone else did it.
I'll also say that one thing people tend to forget is that the black slaves were not collected by white guys heading into Africa with guns and nets. The were purchused from other black guys. Traders used to load up on goods to trade in the Middle East and Africa, and use those goods to buy slaves which could be sold for more money back in Europe and America. Indeed if you know anything about slave ships (and I do from some reading) and have looked at the wreckage of ships like the pirate ship Whydah (which was originally intended for slaving before it was captured) they were set up to receive and display slaves on deck because for a number of reasons they generally didn't want to go on land in the areas where the slaves were being sold, either for fear of infection/disease, or because Muslims didn't want white men on Muslim soil. They slaves used to be made to row themselves and their owners out to the boats, where they were examined and sent down into the hold if a deal could be reached. Basically the popular fiction of the slave trade, is just that... a popular fiction. In reality most slaves were sold by their own people (ethnically speaking) in many cases being the prisoners taken in tribal wars or whatever. Plenty of books on the subject.
Once you get past all of the white guilt crap, and realize what BS there is, there is very little to really rationalize why you should have a dual standard in the media. Truthfully the actual PROBLEM is that there just aren't that many black creators of things like TV shows, comics, or anything else. To start seeing more black characters what you need is the black community to get enough people interested in writing, drawing, and similar things, so they dedicate themselves to it, and then from that creative pool a few will begin to see their work get accepted. That will lead to more movies being made with black characters, more comics with black super heroes (and movies), and more science fiction novels with black protaganists, etc...
Right now the situation is that whole "git rich or die trying" mentality, and the associated problems guys like Bill Cosby have talked about. Simply put in US black culture, blacks consider it wrong to live normally, and fall into a rut, or to try and throw themselves at an industry like comics, knowing that the odds are against them, and that even if they succeed they probably aren't going to be super rich. Rather they'd rather play the odds by doing something like basketball, or take acting lessons and hope to become a movie star, or turn to crime. It's either the very top, or the very bottom, stuff in the middle like "writer guy" just doesn't appeal, which is why it's so bloody rare and doesn't have much of an impact.
There is absolutly no excuse to change Heimdall's ethnicity, other than political correctness. The arguement that it's okay to do this, but not to "flip" a black character over to a white person because of there being so few black characters, when it's the same thing (and equally ridiculous) is simply wrong. If you want to see more black characters, then you need to encourage more people in black America to go to school, and become writers ans artists to create those characters.
To be honest in cases where we have seen characters "flipped" to white actors, there usually have been some excuses, among them of course finding someone who could actually play the role. A very differant situation from the "Heimdall" situation where there were probably a lot of white guys on the market who could have done that. Heimdall was "flipped" simply to have a black guy, there was no other reason. In the case of say "Prince Of Persia", I can't think of one Arabic actor who could have pulled it off. Heck, I can't even think of that many Arabic actors, how many people of Arabic ethnicity actually work in Hollywood? I mean sure, if you could find me a good Arabic actor who looked the part, could carry the acting, and do the Choreography as wekk as Jake could, and who applied for the role, then I'd argue there was some racism involved, but honestly I very much doubt that was the case.
When it comes to situations like the Heimdall thing, and race in general, I'll point a finger to Asia. It was a long time before those of asian ethnicity had a strong prescence in comics, but it happened because they got invested in the medium, and started producing artists and writers. They introduced those comics to other markets, and since the work was genuinely good, it began to inspire them. You then saw the eastern and western take on comics cross pollinating, and influances from both affecting both markets. Nowadays there are a decent number of asian characters even in American comics, but that is largely because of there being decent numbers of asian writers and creators.
Now, I will point out that in the course of these arguements I do tend to notice a lot of people who are black or hispanic nowadays mentionining asians as an exception to racism because their penetration into culture hasn't been unnoticed. The thing is though that they worked long and hard for that, and as there really wasn't much actual racism present, they succeeded. Back in the bad old days there were plenty of racial slurs for them too, used just as much as the "N" word or various insults towards Hispanics and Latinos. When racism subsided, they took the oppertunities, and that's where the big differance is. That black kid who blows off school to go play basketball, aiming at being the next Michael Jordan, who likes comics might just put down that ball and go pay attention in english class, and/or cultivate their drawing skill. Chances are he won't ever make it into comics, but if enough of them do this, eventually some will, and then we'll see black comic characters people will appreciate, without people needing to resort to the travesty of politically correct casting desicians. See, like most people, I don't care what color a super hero's skin happens to be, what I care about is a good character, and good storylines (and decent artwork of course). I think "Spawn" sort of demonstrated how little ethncity matters to a comic character. It's just that most creators tend to make characters of their own race (call it self projection and personal power fantasies even if they don't admit it), there ARE execeptions, especially when dealing with very prolific creators, but that's what they are, exceptions and not the rule. That's why you need more black creators to solve the problem, and for it to work they need to earn their way into those positions.
Ah well, I'm rambling, but that's my thoughts on the subject. No need to correct me on the history part, this was a long post, and I was being brief and basic intentionally. I'm well aware of there being exceptions in there to some of what I said, but this wasn't meant to be an all inclusive treatise on the subjetct since it was all leading up to my points about comic books (and heck the creative industries in general) and casting.
Like many things I find myself disagreeing with Bob, he leans pretty far away from me on the political spectrum I think, and also tends to be a little too narrow in his thinking. I think it's absurd to make a point based on racism, when racism was the way of the world in the time periods he was talking about, and what's more it had been going on for thousands of years. If you want to get technical white people didn't create racism, but we WERE the ones who pretty much ended it, at least within our territories like the USA, and this at a time when we're acting as powers with global reaches. All of this, when in reality we're probably the planet's "late bloomers" and wound up getting it more than anyone before the last few centuries. "White Guys" as we think of them (ie Saxons and such) were not really a big deal until after the Dark Ages ended, so that means we've had what? A thousand years, out of which we've been dominant for 500 or 600 or so... compared to the scope of history before that?
Like it or not, the above points are what I tend to use to make white supremecists cry.