Therumancer said:
Akio91 said:
So.....this is the first I've heard of this. Bob, are you making up issues for views? Or is this some Hollywood insider mad that the rest of us have missed out on?
No, he's right, it exists. Bob's own politics and white guilt have predictably slanted it though. The issue isn't quite as mainstream as your used to seeing from other outcries because the basic issue isn't coming from sources the left wing likes to acknowlege existing.
Basically "Cloud Atlas" is a movie that has seriously invoked the ire of so called "reverse racists". Equality actually being a forgone conclusion in most of the western world (despite what politicians and left wingers like to say and believe) your rapidly seeing those that are minorities within the western world embracing a "pro (insert race here)" stance, the old "I'm not anti-white, but am proud to be black" or "I'm pro-black" attitude which is pretty much the same thing as white supremacy conveyed through other words and carefully avoided by the left wing. A lot of the outcry you see here is not so much because of old school comedic "race play" by white actors, but because you have minorities offended by what they see as a lesser people playing them. I ran into this issue not so much as white vs. black as most people like to focus on, but more in terms of white guys playing Koreans in the final sequence, which was seen as an affront to ethnic superiority... as is the entire idea of soul reincarnation which can be an issue to those who see themselves superior for reasons having to do with who or what they are inherantly.
I actually tried to find a link to it again (though I can't, I think it was taken down) I was reading a fairly racist article someone put up ranting pretty much about asian superiority and how offensive this movie was on those levels.
I pretty much take the opposite position from Bob on most of these issues even if it goes to the same place. I believe in human equaliy, but I feel within the western world that's embracing it the current problem is not with the "white majority" which has done a good job of adapting on those principles, but for minorities themselves to adapt to equality, do away with their counter cultures, and desires for social vengeance. Or in simple terms, when dealing with things like the white vs. black conflict, white guys freed blacks and supported all of this civil liberties stuff, it wasn't done to give blacks the tools needed to avenge this injustice, and indeed exactly the kinds of movements and attitudes you see now were exactly what was promised wouldn't happen by the people promoting that equality agenda. Globally I also think the rest of the world is very racist, except it's a situation where whites are one of the smallest minorities there are (ironic on a lot of levels). The eastern world in paticular needs to be given a serious kick in the teeth if we ever plan to see racism dealt with. Bob Chipman style guilt and self-judgement doesn't really solve anything, especially seeing as anything we do is only affecting a relatively small percentage of humanity. When you considered that roughly 1/3rd of the population is in India, 1/3rd is in China, Africa is overcrowded, hundreds of millions of Muslims, etc... you begin to realize that what happens within the borders of the USA or Europe affects a very small percentage of humanity.
As a result I take the opposite track from Bob, rather than being an apologist I believe on brutal crackdowns on minority counter culture, reverse racism, and similar things. Someone who identifies as Pro-Black, Pro-Asian, and says "[insert minority here] Power" is just as bad as a KKK member, they are actually the same thing (especially nowadays where the KKK is itself mostly verbal and political as well) and deserves to be hammered as a divisive influance that is working against tolerance and co-existance. I also believe very much in doing things like forcing information into countries like China through their censorship policies and refusing to help them, or let anyone else help them with censorship. I for example believe a search engine that censors itself for other countries to filter outside political ideals like tolerance needs to itself be on the receiving end of a brutal crackdown.
Or in short I pretty much believe the new motto should be "Live Free Or Die" and acceptance at this point still needs to be fought for. The ideas are out there, but need to be enforced through the barrel of a gun, and the striking surface of a truncheon. Even if unherard of numbers of people die, it's one of those cases where anything worth having comes at a high cost. I think we planted the seeds, but gave up far too soon, and fell into lethargy and hand wringing where we let all the same problems continue, just from the opposite direction they were coming from before. The counter culture that was one a champion of civil liberties as become the enemy of those same civil liberties.
Therumancer, I really have to ask this.
Because I believe we are going to end up locking horns again. You might not quite remember but we have done once before. That time it was because you were preaching... mass murder and potential genocide. This time it is because you are being... predictable. Regardless, I need to ask the following:
Have you ever studied politics or sociology? Maybe even a bit of Philosophy? Perhaps done a short course in Ethics? I just want to know.
Equality actually being a forgone conclusion in most of the western world (despite what politicians and left wingers like to say and believe)
Bullshit. Sure, you will state that I am stating the above because I am left win (Well, I am. Significantly so.) but I am stating the above because... well, there wouldn't be much fucking point in the race relations module of my Sociology course if there was no issue with race relations in the UK! Equality is not a forgone conclusion. Despite the bleatings of the Right, women are still paid less then men (The government is forcing the Public Sector to address this and backdating lost pay over the last 10 years. This decision is costing Birmingham council over 600 million pounds.) and minority communities within the UK are still shat on.
So lets ignore that statement. Because it is quite simply, in-arguably, wrong. You can state that it is your OPINION that equality is a foregone conclusion in the western world but... Well, you are wrong. Academia disagrees with you. Sorry.
the old "I'm not anti-white, but am proud to be black" or "I'm pro-black" attitude which is pretty much the same thing as white supremacy conveyed through other words and carefully avoided by the left wing.
Reclaiming race identity and trying to be proud of who you are in the face of racism is not racist. Your statement is as insane as the logic that a gay man who is proud to be gay is anti strait. Or someone who campaigns for gay rights and an end to discrimination hates strait people. Sorry bro, your statement is wrong. And rather insane. Taken from the perspective that racism exists in the west and equality is not a foregone conclusion, your statement is wrong (Anyone starting to see a trend here?)
Now, if said people were part of, say, a fascist movement, a genuine supremicist movement, then you would have a point. But it is one thing to be proud of who you are, another to think you are above others.
rather than being an apologist I believe on brutal crackdowns on minority counter culture, reverse racism, and similar things.
There is the Therumancer I know and love. Brutal crackdowns, hatred of minorities, Wonderful. Could you do me a favour in your inevitable reply which carefully does not insult me, could you give me your definition of counter culture? Oh, and point to any form of scholarly article affiliated with a prominent theorist within either the fields of Media and Cultural Studies or Sociology that acknowledges the existence of 'Reverse Racism'.
You cannot supress an ideal or way of life through brutal crackdowns. It has never worked (In the long run, at least, usually it has the opposite effect). You want to end these things that you see in society? Education is always the answer. Not war (Which you seem to love), nor brutality. Teach people.
Also, I am quoting this for ironies sake.
When you considered that roughly 1/3rd of the population is in India, 1/3rd is in China, Africa is overcrowded, hundreds of millions of Muslims
Now that it suits you, Muslims are a race! Wonderful.
What exactly do you have against Islam? Seriously? Also are you genuinely of the opinion that there is no such thing as a white Muslim? Bleh. I tire of this already. In passing I would like to point one last thing out. Which is not to be taken as an insult. You have stated that the West is tolerant and that the rest of the world is not, you have once more preached death and destruction. Ser, has it occurred to you that quite often what you write comes accross as paranoid racist drivel?
Just saying, maybe you should address that fact.
It was a nice distraction from the essay I was writing on JS Mill but still, responding to your statements takes it out of me.
On topic, because I fear that reply was incredibly off topic...
I still have not seen cloud atlas and I am looking forward to doing so. Whilst I can see the argument against using white actors in Asian roles, I think that sometimes it can be excused. Pretty much all I had to say on the matter, I cannot even remember how I ended up in the thread, then I saw someone quote Therumancer and thought I would go and read whatever was written.
