Big Boob Panty Ninja 12 will never be as good as Big Boob Panty Ninja 7: Mystical Chainmail Thong. In all seriousness good video and I totally agree.
The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Does anyone already own a copyright to "big boob panty ninja"? If not I've got a game to make.
She'll be a female protagonist who needs to dress sexy to get close to her assassination targets because her voluptuous physique make all the sneaking around in the dark quite impossible for her. I'll also have her suffer from back problems and self esteem issues. I'll also give her a more realistic looking sister who is an all around better ninja (think protoman in relation to megaman when he is first introduced) that she want to be better than. This would probably make a good manga the more I think this out...
In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves. Both images are unrealistic but one is impossible for all but a few.
She'll be a female protagonist who needs to dress sexy to get close to her assassination targets because her voluptuous physique make all the sneaking around in the dark quite impossible for her. I'll also have her suffer from back problems and self esteem issues. I'll also give her a more realistic looking sister who is an all around better ninja (think protoman in relation to megaman when he is first introduced) that she want to be better than. This would probably make a good manga the more I think this out...
In all seriousness, I've always debunked the argument of the mountain of muscle argument as that is an obtainable goal if you put in the time an effort to get that buff. A female will not however (without surgery) ever be able to turn into Ayane; no matter how much time or effort they put in to transforming themselves. Both images are unrealistic but one is impossible for all but a few.
There's going to be a Big Boob Panty Ninja 12?
Did you find the secrete door at E3?
My problem with the whole argument is that overhauling the media and portraying all women with "regular" body types wouldn't fix anything.
The real problem here doesn't have anything to do with the media or uber sexy fake women. The problem is the biological imperative that guys think with their dicks. If there were no D-cup hourglass women in comic books, videogames, movies, etc the underlining problem wouldn't be any less prevalent.
Attacking all the hot bodied characters isn't really attacking the source, or even a symptom of the problem. It's just an easy target
Did you find the secrete door at E3?
My problem with the whole argument is that overhauling the media and portraying all women with "regular" body types wouldn't fix anything.
The real problem here doesn't have anything to do with the media or uber sexy fake women. The problem is the biological imperative that guys think with their dicks. If there were no D-cup hourglass women in comic books, videogames, movies, etc the underlining problem wouldn't be any less prevalent.
Attacking all the hot bodied characters isn't really attacking the source, or even a symptom of the problem. It's just an easy target
Also if she wants to use actual game characters and not just inspired look-a-likes she'll have to pay licensing fees.Varya said:
Can't wait till tropes takes a look at Samus and the Metroid prime games then looks at another M. The horror it burns usssss.
Given how I think that MovieBob has mishandled some more serious issues in the past, such as the absurd "double standard is OK because I say so"-episode, I was expecting to have disagreements with him in this video, and yeah, that's how it turned out.
My main disagreement however isn't with the points he makes, which are largely true, but rather that he focuses his entire attention on one argument, the debunking of which is pointless. Two wrongs do not make a right. The fact that men are idealised in video games doesn't make it any more or less valid that women are, too.
In other words, this video doesn't cover any of the important issues in this debate. Moreover, MovieBob goes from talking about video game characters with big boobs to talking about sexism in the workplace, as if the two are somehow related. They're results of the same problem but no one is sitting in an office chair thinking "well, if only she looked liked Ivy from that fighting game, I'd hire her."
This is a widespread cultural issue and the video game industry is not the cause of it. Claiming otherwise is just as absurd as that rather embarrassingly large group of people who think that Resident Evil 5 is racist. Equating a hate-based ideology that has caused and is still causing deaths and suffering to something as utterly trivial as a video game must be insulting to those who live to tell the tale.
Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.
My main disagreement however isn't with the points he makes, which are largely true, but rather that he focuses his entire attention on one argument, the debunking of which is pointless. Two wrongs do not make a right. The fact that men are idealised in video games doesn't make it any more or less valid that women are, too.
In other words, this video doesn't cover any of the important issues in this debate. Moreover, MovieBob goes from talking about video game characters with big boobs to talking about sexism in the workplace, as if the two are somehow related. They're results of the same problem but no one is sitting in an office chair thinking "well, if only she looked liked Ivy from that fighting game, I'd hire her."
This is a widespread cultural issue and the video game industry is not the cause of it. Claiming otherwise is just as absurd as that rather embarrassingly large group of people who think that Resident Evil 5 is racist. Equating a hate-based ideology that has caused and is still causing deaths and suffering to something as utterly trivial as a video game must be insulting to those who live to tell the tale.
Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.
2 things:Xanthious said:
A 00:47 I died laughing at that, I just about fell out of my chair.
and
B what this fellow said. If you read this bob, you should do that jabberjaw episode for real.
Ugh. Initially I was hoping this would be an episode about Tvtropes or, failing that, the Jabberjaw episode.
I've said it before and I'll probably have to say it again at some point: the backlash against this woman's entirely reasonable project is atrocious, though I could also do without ever hearing her banal analyses again.
Hopefully the commenters learn that their seething hatred has only made Sarkeesian's case stronger as well as given her more money. And hopefully Sarkeesian reads some more damn books instead of letting this fight go to her head; maybe picks up some queer theory too while she's at it so we can get an analysis of video games that is a little more nuanced than the severely dated second wave stuff she's put out so far.
I've said it before and I'll probably have to say it again at some point: the backlash against this woman's entirely reasonable project is atrocious, though I could also do without ever hearing her banal analyses again.
Hopefully the commenters learn that their seething hatred has only made Sarkeesian's case stronger as well as given her more money. And hopefully Sarkeesian reads some more damn books instead of letting this fight go to her head; maybe picks up some queer theory too while she's at it so we can get an analysis of video games that is a little more nuanced than the severely dated second wave stuff she's put out so far.
I agree with bob when regarding that specific argument. But when you look at it, the male and female tropes in video games are both equally sexist. The only difference between the two is how they came into existence.
Now as we all know, Video Game Developers and big name Publishers are very slow to change. Much like Hollywood, they're stagnating and the quality of the games we are receiving is diminishing. Companies are far too afraid to make anything particularly ground breaking, with a few noted exceptions here and there. I'm 100% for more realistically portrayed characters on both sides. I also like my Super Turbo Panty Stripper style games, but that's between me and the game.
Anita is going about her videos in the wrong way. She presents them in an antagonistic light with regards to games. She immediately sets the US VS Them style as if there's some war to be fought. The reality is that there is no fight or war, only consumer response the the games that are being released currently. The best and most effective way to fight off sexism, racism and violence is through proper parenting and education. There is no other way.
TL
R: I agree with bob, however Anita is going about attacking games in the same way Jack Thompson attacked violent video games and "Murder Simulators". She's certainly educating, but If I wanted to teach my kids about how to treat others in society, then it needs to be a collective effort from everyone to better educate our youth.
Closing Comments:
So what would a better education do to solve this particular predicament? Well the idea that video game art is inherently sexist is simply a matter of interpretation. When you educate someone about sex, and that person looks at porn, he/she knows that the porn isn't realistic. Through education we get better at analyzing the information we receive on a daily basis. In a society where violence, sexuality and racism are rampantly portrayed by media, it has become that much more important to address these difficult issues with our children. As long as parents and schools neglect these facts, sexism, racism and violence will exist in our society.
Now as we all know, Video Game Developers and big name Publishers are very slow to change. Much like Hollywood, they're stagnating and the quality of the games we are receiving is diminishing. Companies are far too afraid to make anything particularly ground breaking, with a few noted exceptions here and there. I'm 100% for more realistically portrayed characters on both sides. I also like my Super Turbo Panty Stripper style games, but that's between me and the game.
Anita is going about her videos in the wrong way. She presents them in an antagonistic light with regards to games. She immediately sets the US VS Them style as if there's some war to be fought. The reality is that there is no fight or war, only consumer response the the games that are being released currently. The best and most effective way to fight off sexism, racism and violence is through proper parenting and education. There is no other way.
TL
R: I agree with bob, however Anita is going about attacking games in the same way Jack Thompson attacked violent video games and "Murder Simulators". She's certainly educating, but If I wanted to teach my kids about how to treat others in society, then it needs to be a collective effort from everyone to better educate our youth.Closing Comments:
So what would a better education do to solve this particular predicament? Well the idea that video game art is inherently sexist is simply a matter of interpretation. When you educate someone about sex, and that person looks at porn, he/she knows that the porn isn't realistic. Through education we get better at analyzing the information we receive on a daily basis. In a society where violence, sexuality and racism are rampantly portrayed by media, it has become that much more important to address these difficult issues with our children. As long as parents and schools neglect these facts, sexism, racism and violence will exist in our society.
You'd think all those Hunger Games royalties could cover it. I'm thinking this kickstarter was done for one of two reasons: either as a way to incite a flame war and generate free publicity, or to prove that people are willing to hand over money to get this point across.Eri said:
Off-topic: personally I don't really like fair haired-big bosomed women like Rachel or Ivy. Sure my body likes to look at them, but they're just too superficial for my tastes.
What I got from the video is that we need more fat / ugly female video game characters. I can get behind that.
Isn't it also offensive to men to assume they all want skimpily dressed big-boobed women (or, if we're looking at Japanese stuff, 10-year old girls)?
Not everyone finds the same kind of body-type sexy. For example, I like Ivy's over-the-top design, but she definitely isn't sexy to me. She looks too silly for that.
Female characters I find attractive tend to be more realistically proportioned, even fat by the screwed-up standards of videogames, and even more importantly, funny and smart and interesting characters.
And how exactly does complaining about video-games (and I'd like to remind you that this is a video-game forum) somehow make it impossible to also focus on how women are treated in real life?
Besides, I'm a fan of video-games, and I'd very much like to have interesting realistic female characters in them.
Not the most important cause in the world, true, but it's not like whining about it on the net (or even playing video-games) is ALL I do with my life.
Not everyone finds the same kind of body-type sexy. For example, I like Ivy's over-the-top design, but she definitely isn't sexy to me. She looks too silly for that.
Female characters I find attractive tend to be more realistically proportioned, even fat by the screwed-up standards of videogames, and even more importantly, funny and smart and interesting characters.
Isn't how an issue is portrayed in the media indicative on how it is viewed in society?Chatney said:
And how exactly does complaining about video-games (and I'd like to remind you that this is a video-game forum) somehow make it impossible to also focus on how women are treated in real life?
Besides, I'm a fan of video-games, and I'd very much like to have interesting realistic female characters in them.
Not the most important cause in the world, true, but it's not like whining about it on the net (or even playing video-games) is ALL I do with my life.
I generally agree with Bob's points but would like to add 2 things:
While there are plenty of feminist intellectuals who do perfectly fine critiques there are also activists who will just complain about anything to get the attention to their cause. (I don't know which category Tropes V video games lady falls into - I've not really looked, I will assume it's fine).
Secondly, while the United States has strong libertarian vibes and a constitution that takes an earthquake of political will to amend there are plenty of countries that just might get convinced to take away "Big-Boobed Panty Ninja". This is not meant as a knock down argument against critiques, just saying.
While there are plenty of feminist intellectuals who do perfectly fine critiques there are also activists who will just complain about anything to get the attention to their cause. (I don't know which category Tropes V video games lady falls into - I've not really looked, I will assume it's fine).
Secondly, while the United States has strong libertarian vibes and a constitution that takes an earthquake of political will to amend there are plenty of countries that just might get convinced to take away "Big-Boobed Panty Ninja". This is not meant as a knock down argument against critiques, just saying.
I've actually used the "it's not a gender specific issue, everyone is made to look prettier in games" argument in the past. Not that I'm in any way opposed to a better representation of women in pop-culture or anti-feminist in any way, it just seemed to make a certain amount of sense to me at the time. I'll admit, it's not nearly as strong of an argument as I thought it was.
Still, I don't think it's entirely invalid either. Problematic tropes and characters based on sketchy ideals, physical or otherwise, are worth raising an eyebrow at regardless of what gender they affect.
Still, I don't think it's entirely invalid either. Problematic tropes and characters based on sketchy ideals, physical or otherwise, are worth raising an eyebrow at regardless of what gender they affect.
Regardless of whether or not games or other forms of geek media are responsible for this behavior, it's the symptom of a culture that's formed around them, which at least means that there's something about this segment of the media that appeals to that kind of human being. The combination of the media itself, and the element that's drawn to those factors leads to a normalization of misogyny that could potentially even affect more rational people in a subtle, but still harmful way. In short, I think there is a valid point to be made that while video games might not cause the behavior they could play a role in perpetuating it.templar1138a said:
As far as Anita Sarkeesian thinking that women are superior to men, I haven't seen anything in any of her videos that would lead me to believe that, and the idea that the whole thing was a pre-meditated act of flame-baiting is pure speculation on your part.