The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[MightyLB]

* Men in automobile ads are depicted in regular clothing or business attire. Women also appear in regular dress or business attire, but it is also not considered odd for them to be in skimpy clothes or bathing suits.
* TV ads for women's underwear either make the main selling point comfort or sexiness. Men's underwear ads only sell based on comfort.

It?s down to marketing and what you are trying to sell to the customer. Look at cleaning products they are usually aimed at housewives and portray the husband as helpless. Ask yourself what are they trying to sell to their demographic?

This was a common sexist ad tactic that I considered putting on the list, but because the appeal was one of control/competency/power as opposed sex appeal/"look at that hot person", I left it off. Since this is an Internet forum and brevity is preferred, I only focused some examples based on sex appeal. I could keep yammering on about sexism in advertising, but it would be too long for this venue and would distract from my main point: men and women are assumed to only want to play certain kinds of games, despite the mechanics and objectives of gameplay itself having no gender bias.

 

[viranimus]

Well bobby.. I got to admit you managed to get a chuckle out of me over the Kratos bit.

However, as ususal I see you being way off base here. Im sorry but these "body standards" is the weakest thing possible to fall back on. You know why men dont care about the hyper buffed guys in video games.. because it never crossed our minds that it was something we were supposed to strive to be. It never will either. Simply put, men in general just dont give a shit about if we look like Kratos, or if we look like Rufus. That simply is not our problem.

(before I start, I am generalizing when I say women. I do not mean EVERY woman and honestly that should go without saying)

Thats why feminism in general is such an over exaggerated entity. Sure there are undeniable womens issues like fair treatment, equal pay, sexual harassment. However, Men did not impose some sort of body standard on women. That originates from the other side of the table. Im sorry if women feel bad if they compare themselves to other women and come away feeling inferior but the simple fact is... it doesnt stop at media portrayals be it tv, magazines, video games or any other form of media short of radio. Women can look at another woman and somehow feel less about themselves because they dont compare to what they saw. And really I am sick of being a male and burdened with this male guilt because women have this problem. Damn near Every pre menopausal girl I have ever interacted with exhibited this type of insecurity and need for constant reassurance in one form or another. Thats not to say there arent those who do it, but the "trope" is common enough for it to be cliche.

So how is it that men are supposed to fix our perceptions to placate women when we have no control over how they will be offended? Seriously, you swing the door too far one way you get loathing for objectification, and if you swing it back the other way it becomes oppression that its mens fault women cant dress a certain way or something equally a asinine. There simply is no end to it. Its like Sisyphus pushing a boulder up a half pipe.

So really , ive seen some of the responses in question, and yes they are a horrible shit storm of justifications but it still does not excuse that men are in a never ending loosing battle over something that can never be explained and against variables we have no control over.

 

[medv4380]

I meant to let this thread go, but I couldn't let this one go without commenting, since you have completely missed my point.

First off, comparing humans and primates is not valid. Even though we share a common ancestor, that doesn't make us all that similar now. A species that can produce cognitive thought can make ethical decisions. When a society says it is the womans fault that she was raped what mesage does that send to the men? It isn't about finding someone attractive. I am married and will still pause for a glance at a woman I find attractive. I also control myself. I love my wife and don't want anyone else.

Talking about the issue is how we fix it. The whole issue is the view society has. If women are looked at as second class citizens then they will be treated as such. If society looks at them as equals then they will be treate as such. The key is to change societies views. That is what you don't seem to understand. It is also why Bob's video, the feminist frequency video's and others are good things. They make people like you and I question how we treat women.

If you have a better idea on how things change please share it with the rest of us. If it is a mind blowing idea then I will fight with you to implement it.

No it's not, because you're not talking about the right subject. Talking about how someone shouldn't be seen as sexual doesn't address Rape at all. Their have been rapist who claimed that the elderly grandma in an ultra conservative night gown was "too attractive". It is a bogus argument that Rapist and Feminist alike use, and is irrelevant.

 

[3quency]

This is quite a thought provoking response, thanks. I've gotta say, I think I pretty much agree with your points about the video. I stand by my opinion that the video still has value in a discussion about sexism, but I can agree that it would have served Bob better to address a trickier "excuse". I'll try and respond to the other part point-by-point:

This relies heavily on what we define as sexism. The only solid conclusion we can draw from the frequent depiction of female characters as large-chested super-hot etc etc is that there is a significant portion of the market out there that enjoys seeing it. It doesn't imply any discrimination towards females, just that there is an ideal of attractiveness, just as there is of skill, talent, intelligence and so on, this applying to both male and female characters.

I think I'd have to disagree here. It implies an ideal of attractiveness in the same way that earlier programs (e.g. Father Knows Best) implied an ideal of female behaviour. Creating female characters with attributes that fit in with how a certain group of heterosexual men feel they should look/act is always going to be inherently sexist.
In response to the points of skill and talent for male/female figures, ultimately most media falls into a very specific stereotype - men should be judged by their actions, women by their static attributes. This has become less true over the years, but is still a prevailing attitude.

There's a case to be made that the reason behind the more pervasive and arguably exaggerated ideal of the female appearance is male biology, more specifically male sexuality. In the interest of being brief, I'll sum it up as: men are more visually sexual, females have a stronger sexual display, hence there's a lot more call for female characters in media to be attractive. Take this for the generalisation that it is.

I can see the point you're making here. As a straight guy who only just turned 20, I'd be lying if I said that I had never been attracted to a woman solely for her figure.
However, I feel this returns to a very important point: women in fiction are being created to fit in with the ideals of men. Straight White Males are not the only people interested in the medium. They never have been and never will be. Women make up half the population. Passing something off as "appealing to the audience" just doesn't cut it for me, because that audience is so diverse. Therefore, I would still argue that over-sexualised women are an aspect of sexism in media, if only because they assume that women don't watch/play/read this stuff.

At any rate, a large portion of entertainment media is based around ideals, and these extend further than the shallow ones that the feminists focus a lot of their attention on. A more serious one is celebrity-culture that teaches children that some people are just naturally more interesting and others because they're idealised as special.

I agree that celebrity-culture is a problem. It does spread wrong messages and it is exclusive and judgemental. But it is a societal issue unique to our particular culture. Sexism is a problem that has been part of our culture as long as we have been recording history. Celebrity is a comparatively new and small issue. And both need addressing, to suggest one is more important does not mean the other is irrelevant, or wrongfully concentrated on.

There has to be a wall of separation between fiction and reality. If we were to agree that idealised women in video games are sexist, then by the same logic any man (or woman) who watches some of the most common forms of pornography is deeply sexist, given how it features women that are sex-hungry slaves that love nothing more than to perform fellatio all day long. We all understand this to be a male fantasy, one that they arguably can't help having given the biological nature of their sexuality, and we also understand that there is absolutely no implication that this is representative of reality. It's fictional media intended to service a particular need.

Now this really is a different matter entirely. I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Yes, pornography is demeaning. It's crude, objectifying and sometimes downright disturbing. But it is designed entirely to tittilate. That is it's sole purpose. Video-games are not porn (for the sake of the argument, can we ignore visual novels?), and by and large really shouldn't be using any ideals associated with porn. There is nothing wrong with using sexuality in gaming, as there is nothing wrong with it in film or literature. But as a media form, it has responsibilities that porn does not. You said it yourself, each media services a particular need. And videogames serve more, and a wider range of people than Redhead Sluts 4.

Jesus I didn't mean to go on that long. I hope this is as coherent as it was in my head.

 

[Ishiro32]

I don't support her project at all. I think the topic is worth exploring, but after i watched videos on her channel i wish someone else would have done it instead. Even my female friend who has similar worldview as hers agreed that her presentation is vey poor (presentation, not production value). Why we think that way is another story and i won't write it here since it's not the topic.
Her reaction for trolls was let's be honest very smart. She used it as free publicity and it is disgusting.
She doesn't have any gaming background to justify that project. And you need it to fully understand the medium.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

I don't support her project at all. I think the topic is worth exploring, but after i watched videos on her channel i wish someone else would have done it instead. Even my female friend who has similar worldview as hers agreed that her presentation is vey poor (presentation, not production value). Why we think that way is another story and i won't write it here since it's not the topic.
Her reaction for trolls was let's be honest very smart. She used it as free publicity and it is disgusting.
She doesn't have any gaming background to justify that project. And you need it to fully understand the medium.

No gaming background?

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2010/03/remix-too-many-dicks/

 

[Matt_LRR]

Because she's a clueless dope who knows nothing about video games, misogyny and sexism?

Considering she's got a masters degree in social and political thought, and her master's thesis was written on the topic of the representation of women in science-fiction and fantasy media, between you and Anita Sarkeesian, who knows what they're talking about less?

-m

 

[Skrableren]

"Society judges women based on their appearence rather than their ability"
[...]
If you really want to get to the root of the problem, ie, why women have their general value based on the exterior, is to ask the right question.

Is it ONLY because society and heterosexual white males judge them by their appearence
OR
could it be the fact that some women really don't help that problem at all by simply, oh i dunno
PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS IF THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER

[...]

Too often do women expect to get handed everything and not be judged by their ability, because they think their appearence is enough.
So both parts imo have to do their parts in the sense that

Some women need to stop focusing on their appearence and using that as an excuse to
get what they want, and also stop presenting themselves as if the appearence was the most important thing to them.

This may be because I am in the middle of my stressy exams right now. But this is probably the most hurtful and misogynistic thing I have heard all day. So.. what you are saying here, is that because women tries to adhere to societies ideals, and standards for what they should look like, that they are essentially, asking for it?

I hope that is not what you are saying.

So, because I chose to get a wax? My opinion is suddenly invalidated? Because I wear makeup every day, I can't comment on the issue of the sexualisation, and dehumanization of my gender? I understand that you see a woman trying to follow the standards that society have put up for her, and at the same time protesting them, as a hypocritical act.

But ugly women are not treated kindly, not by their peers, not by their male colleagues. Males always, as in the example with the female politician mocked by males for her looks, in some way assign women value through their sexual appeal. And that is no matter what intellectual feat they have preformed.

And as a woman? you can be damn sure that it is a factor I take into account when i get my job interviews, start at a new school or workplace, or even when I leave my damn house.

It is a part of me that is constantly judged every where I go, where ever I turn I will get judged for my sexual appeal, and I will be assigned a value because of it.

A woman can preform an intellectual feat, but if she don't look good doing it, men don't give a damn.

It's not wise to lump the entire male sex into one opinion, Skrableren. Monoxeroth has a point that many Women do embrace stereotypes of women. Fashion, aperances, etc. These things are enjoyed and embraced by many women. The same can be said with women who are against such ideas as make-up. The same can be said for those who base women off their skill rather than beauty. There will be men who will do either or in the work force.

That does not mean I am implying it's not an issue, however to lump it as an absolute that 'ALL men base women off looks.' is stupid.

Is it right for women to have men buy them things? One would say that a man buying something for a woman is a Gentlemen act, a Feminist would say that man is acting like a traditionalist, others would say the guys just bought the woman something and not think about it. Is it right for a woman to take things from other men, when she is single, even if she is not being actively flirtaous?

Women have been given different rights and entitlements as men, and men have never had those rights or entitlements.

Women and Children first off the ship first.
No obligation to be in the military, or the draft.
Higher chances of keeping their own children after divorce. I can go on about the rights that women have and are not even aware of them.

Now let's go back to your beauty remark. Is it fair? No, it isn't. A woman is ugly to society will not get all the nice perks, remarks, or respect then what a beatiful woman will get. Those things are standards we, as a culture, have expected it to be. It's not fair or right. Sadly men are under their own their own standards that we must obey. The two major aspect of men are sex and power.

Men are supposed to have an aplha male drive. To be strong, and overcome all others. We are obligated to either be skillful in something or be strong physcally. If we have neither these things, a man is deemed useless. He may be a nice person, but if he does nothing in terms of work, skill or anythig production. A woman can be accepted for having no skill, as long as she is pretty.

Sex to men is very important. If a man does not have sex, the culture laughs at the person. It is to be expected that males get laid or be deemed a loser, the 40 year old virgin is a nice example. A Woman can be a virgin for longer because most people are not going to ask if a woman is one or not, thus a veil of cultural protection. Men talk about sex, so a man's virginity is questioned and you get a 40 year old virgin crisis where they MUST get this guy to get sex for the sake of getting sex.


Both sexes have standards that we must abide by. It's not fair that we have them, and equality must be the long term goal. Generalizing men or women will not solve this issue, because men and women are all going to agree on it. There must be admittance to both sides have reinforced stereotypes and figure out a way to eliminate them.

I agree with most everything you are saying, no it wasn't fair of me to lump all men together, and I didn't say that visuals is the only thing that males value. What I did say it that it is a thing that is always being valued.

I don't know how men work, which is in large what all the problems are about, that we don't know how the other gender works.

I don't wanna go to much into some movie I have never seen. But the pressure to have sex always exists. Also for women, a woman who has sex is often shamed for being a slut, and a woman who doesn't is looked down on for being a stingy prude.

 

[Skrableren]

oops duple post

 

[Norix596]

No one presents this argument as well and concisely or convincingly as Movie Bob.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I think the problem with this specific case though is if she was actually as much of a champion of women's issues as she claims to be, why is she focusing on some imaginary woman with big boobs rather than the thousands of real woman who actually fall victim to outdated, sexist cultural ideals in certain parts of the globe every day. I don't see many people in our sheltered little existence being their champion right about now. So, actually, I'd say in relative terms this isn't an issue that really "needs" to be addressed like it's a matter of urgency, and it certainly doesn't require people to throw money at her which she will do nothing with.

The trouble is, while feminism is no doubt an admirable movement that, at it's heart, seeks a fairer society for all, the doesn't stop a lot of feminists from being idiots, in the same way that a lot of people period are idiots. However, in these enlightened times it seems you are unable to call someone who identifies themselves as feminist an idiot, without you being labeled a chauvinist pig, which is a large part what has led to the angry backlash against feminism in general. Does that make the comments on Youtube justified? Hell no, but who honestly cares about what Youtube trolls say anymore. If their opinions aren't worth noting then why are you acting like their petty insults are a big deal? They can spout all the unpleasant sexist comments they like and it will mean nothing because people know by now not to listen to Youtube.

Also, is it just me, or does her whining in her video's about how it's not fair that men get all the 'exciting' jobs in media and entertainment to be painfully immature. In the real world, these 'exciting' jobs, like fire-fighters and soldiers, get people killed, maimed for life and psychologically scarred. I'm not saying there shouldn't be more equality, quite the opposite, but she devolves the argument to 'we want to do all the cool shit too!' when, in the real world, the cool shit isn't cool at all, it's as messy as it comes. That argument, coming from a supposedly mature adult, really grates with me. I want equality, but on the basis of equality itself, not because it 'isn't fair' that more women don't get killed on battlefields or in burning buildings.

Oh jesus, here we go. Derailing 101: "There are ACTUALLY women being abused in (Country X)! Why aren't you going to help them instead of wasting time with this?"

#1 - how do you know she doesn't care about those women / hasn't donated money or done whatever to help?

#2 - That doesn't mean she shouldn't ALSO tackle the problems at home. And while it's true that these representations come from a problem in society, they also reinforce said problems. Tackling one and the other is the ideal method.

I'm not arguing that only one problem can be fixed at a time, I'm arguing if this is even a problem at all. Yes, some female characters in video games are ridiculously proportioned and overly sexualised. So? I'm missing the part where that is actually sexist. Like Bob said, this stuff is aimed at the male demographic (or at least what developers think the male demographic is, I'll get to that in a minute) and I think that makes a crucial difference as to whether or not it's sexist towards women. Are characters like Ivy a message to women that they must conform to this impossible body type, and that they have failed as a woman if they haven't? Are they specifically saying that just because this imaginary person has big tits that the only role a woman can play in life is to be a plinth on which breasts shall be placed? No. They're not implying anything to women because they're not aimed at women at all. These are completely imaginary notions that self-conscious people have placed on them without even bothering to try and gain a greater insight from the creators, and then chosen to blame everyone else for, something I believe is their problem, not mine.

I would actually argue that if these portrayals of women are sexist towards anyone, they are sexist towards men. Their sexualisation is so blatant and cheap that it borders on insulting the male intelligence. Stop me if i'm giving my gender too much credit, but we don't need titties galore to enjoy a game. However, rather than go to the people who are actually responsible for creating these characters, people like the 'Women vs Tropes' woman would prefer to just pin the blame on the abstract 'male demographic', who obviously all think with their cocks apparently, and would take to the streets in disgust if they were forced to confront a reasonable looking female character with actual depth and complexity.

I want a stronger emphasis on characterisation of women in video games. I also want to be able to look at certain characters without cringing at their body proportions, knowing that she looks the way she does because the game makers literally have that low an opinion of me, which is why I get particularly annoyed at why no-one seems to ever take up their grievances with the people who actually make the games, rather than just assume that we are all at fault. Or they could just realise that their is no agenda at work here to deliberately antagonise women, and go fix stuff like Barbie, which actually does preach outdated gender roles and unreasonable expectations to impressionable young females, something that seems to sell quite well among the girls it is specifically marketed to, oddly.

 

[longboardfan]

Once again, Moviebob missing the point. Again. Sure you can look at the comments and see a mini version of 4/chan but really? You think that's the norm. Hey bob, what about all the other valid criticisms like you know, the fact that she can't figure out how to turn on the xbox controller in her video, or the brand spanking new systems and the shelves of video games, and all those expensive accessories that last I checked at Walmart yesterday were $50+ each and the extra controllers at $50 each, and those wonderful base charging stations, and the filming studio. and and and, well it looks like she didn't have any problems before now making videos. Oh and how about that $200k she made? She's more interested in trolling and patting herself on the back for finding a reactionary environment to make a profit, instead of talking about real issues like real women's rights and the horrific things they endure in other countries. She should donate all her money to a charity that supports women's rights abroad.

Finally, as ForeverPanadering said: "This is nothing but self-congratulating crap. We will learn nothing new from this series, nor will we get anything deeply analytical out of it. Its a waste of time and money."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mZgTgublaY&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=9mZgTgublaY&v=kxWwPZI_4RQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_677377

This is the real criticism. But instead you whine about the 4chaner's. Bravo Moviebob, bravo.

00Side Note00
Hey bob, speaking of unrealistic expectations, you tried dating recently? Sure there's Mario, but no one wants to DATE him.

 

[maboblivion]

If you've ever sat around a bunch of girls watching a pretty girl and saying she's a slut because of the way she looks or guys physically bullying another guy because he's shorter /weak , you'd know that the worst perpetrators of stereotypes and ideals are of the same sex.
How many mothers and fathers teach their kids to disrespect the other sex ,saying
that men or women are stupid , dumb or dirty and then that child grows up spewing the same garbage.

The psychological perception of inadequacy will happen way before any girl or boy will ever pick up a controller and will be etched by social interaction. Father, mother, teachers or fellow class mates. Changing the visual aspect of women in video games won't change anything if it doesn't change how she perceives herself inside.

Women magazines that photoshop actresses so they looks skinnier than they really are
will do much more damage than a pixelated Lara Croft could ever do.

Games with busty game characters are clearly targeted to a male audience, while say movies like twilight are clearly aimed at a female one. Can't we just agree that we like different things? Games like that promote sexism as much as violent games promote violence.

As for the kickstarter reaction, i wouldn't expect anything else from the internet but doesn't represent the majority of male gamers. I think it's just an inflammatory topic that will be used to promote self-served interested a la Jack Thompson.