The Brutal Hypocrisy of Twitch - Alynitys Privileged Immunity

[McElroy]

snip

But does the success of girl pretend-friend streamers tell more about the platform, the girls, or the customers (viewers)?

 

[Nedoras]

They're a soulless tech company owned by Amazon...everyone rides the money train, including the people who are so "outraged" about this and fanning the flames.

Oh, don't pretend the root cause of the problem isn't Twitch's toxic business model, and that there are women who abuse this status quo for personal gain. I'm sex-pos and sex work-pos, and women like Alinity and Amouranth are toxic to the cause of adult content and sex work acceptance thanks to their shitty behavior. Even if they were full-on camgirls, could you imagine their behavior being acceptable on those platforms like Chaturbate or MFC in the current climate of extreme scrutiny towards adult content providers?

Likewise, don't pretend there isn't an entire cottage industry built around apologia for women like them. Damn near every time one of these streamers says or does something horrible on stream, there's an article blast of "misogynists and trolls online blow minor incident completely out of proportion to harass innocent young performance artist, and this is what really happened and this totally exonerates anything the streamer might have said or did in any way". Just never mind it's the same handful of streamers, and it's part and parcel of an often long-running trend.

Well yes, they do abuse it. I didn't say they didn't deserve to be banned, they're garbage people and they should be. I'm aware of how twisted these individuals can be and how much they can take advantage of their audience. My point was that Twitch won't ever give a shit unless it becomes pushed too much into the public spotlight. But yes, they will fully take advantage of the status quo and the image that everyone who is opposing them are neckbeard gamers who hate women or whatever.

I'm not pretending that. As I said, a lot of people benefit and make money off of this. This whole cycle of people taking advantage of a shitty platform that doesn't care to stir controversy, and a bunch of people cynically then defend/attack them who also benefit from the controversy in the first place, is very stupid. This entire online sphere is basically one giant reality TV show and everyone is trying to cash in on it. Only it's much more powerful than something like reality TV, as the viewers get to interact with the "characters" and form pretty strong parasocial relationships. They get to feel like they're truly a part of the show and get unhealthily invested in it. It's a bit of a different topic, but discussion about Twitch culture and parasocial relationships is something that needs more public eye and scrutiny. I personally think Twitch needs to be cracked down on very hard because of it.

I'm also now realizing that you responded to a different post than the one I thought. I did a follow up to that one better explaining myself.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

My point was that Twitch won't ever give a shit unless it becomes pushed too much into the public spotlight. But yes, they will fully take advantage of the status quo and the image that everyone who is opposing them are neckbeard gamers who hate women or whatever.

Absolutely. And, the one thing Twitch could do to resolve the issue is what they would never do voluntarily -- introduce and enforce mature content warnings and age-gating. It gives up the game of Twitch deriving a huge chunk, if not the majority, of its revenue from being Junior's First Cam Site. And it means Twitch would have to comply with the post-SESTA/FOSTA bullshit, which means less revenue for the platform overall, almost certainly less revenue to the women who produce the racier content, and place Twitch in a position where it must compete with actual cam sites for performers and viewers. Not to mention the PR hit from creating an 18+ streaming category.

Like I said, I'm sex-pos and sex work-pos. If women want to do topless streams or whatever, by all means. Just make them context- and age-appropriate. This "body painting as a wink-and-nod excuse to topless stream, then hiding behind feminism and accusations of misogyny and harassment when called out" shit is bananas and makes everyone involved look bad by association.

 

[McElroy]

They get to feel like they're truly a part of the show and get unhealthily invested in it. It's a bit of a different topic, but discussion about Twitch culture and parasocial relationships is something that needs more public eye and scrutiny. I personally think Twitch needs to be cracked down on very hard because of it.

Basically, it's Twitch's fault people watch streams instead of going outside.

 

[CritialGaming]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yru5-5qwV4

Here is another Twitch double standard. They advertised other streamers on Ninja's channel, basically to point people to other Twitch streamers because Ninja went to Mixer. They don't advertise other streamers on ANY other streamer's page, regardless of popularity or how long ago that person streamed.

Oh and one of the streams they promoted on Ninja's channel was broadcasting porn. Just....outright porn. Right there, on a kid friendly channel that had 14 Million subs. Porn. Yeah.

 

[Nedoras]

They get to feel like they're truly a part of the show and get unhealthily invested in it. It's a bit of a different topic, but discussion about Twitch culture and parasocial relationships is something that needs more public eye and scrutiny. I personally think Twitch needs to be cracked down on very hard because of it.

Basically, it's Twitch's fault people watch streams instead of going outside.

No. But Twitch generally doesn't give a damn about what it's streamers do and that includes being emotionally manipulative and exploitative. Twitch holding no one accountable for anything feeds the machine. A slap on the wrist "ban" isn't a punishment. Streamers themsleves also need to take more responsibility for how they interact with their communities and what goes on within them.

As for why this "very online" generation is a thing, that's a very complicated subject that I don't exactly know a whole lot about. Although if I were to hazard a guess, it would be that social isolation is very easy to put a band-aid on with the internet. Especially with individuals that talk directly at you through a camera and you can easily interact with. Or forums filled with people who feel the same way as you, and you form a camaraderie with them based off of mutual grievances.

People also have been forming their identities online now and I'd love to see a study that shows how much of a difference that makes. After all, who you are online and to your online peers doesn't necessarily reflect who you may really be outside of the internet. I'm curious if that truly fuels social isolation in a large way. If it makes a lot people feel like their peers in real life don't understand them as well as strangers on Reddit or whatever. Clearly this happens to some extent, but I'm curious how widespread it truly is.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

No. But Twitch generally doesn't give a damn about what it's streamers do and that includes being emotionally manipulative and exploitative...

The issue is...define manipulation and exploitation.

The idiocy about Amouranth hiding her marital status and that idiot who donated thousands of dollars to her playing the "nice guy" act hoping to get up in there? Was that manipulative? At least in my opinion, that wasn't...little shady perhaps, but at the end of the day content producers create a brand and persona for themselves, they market that brand, and it's on people to realize what they see on the idiot box isn't necessarily reflective of reality.

What about Kaceytron's She-DSP persona? Is she exploitative? If you go back and watch her earlier content, it becomes obvious she's not nearly as poor a player as she presents herself; she deliberately cultivates a brand of incompetence and buffoonery, because it gets her more exposure and revenue than playing and behaving like a competent adult. Nevertheless, her brand is extremely toxic, and she can always rely upon media to white knight her rather than call her out for the impact her persona has on the perception of gamers, streamers, and particularly women in either.

And, last, what about the latest ZombiUnicorn stunt at E3 this year? One could well agree with her point about booth babes and performers at exhibits...as long as you discount the fact she didn't speak to any of the women involved, to hear or charitably represent their point of view, until the matter was publicly forced by one of the actual dancers. Or that she completely failed to recognize the men in the dance troupe, or the women's costumes were more conservative than typical house/scene/rave fashion. Or that, as typical, her first recourse for anyone that so much as kindly disagreed with her was to fling rather nasty insults, including towards other women who weren't in complete lockstep with her opinion. Or that she was pulling quite similar stunts the entire duration of E3 as an official spokesperson complete with media pass, and ignoring equal if not worse behavior by other Twitch partners, up to and including what I believe was a livestreamed twerking contest involving actual strippers "on the job" so to speak. Or that, given her Twitch partner status, her relationship with her platform is much the same as the dancers' she called out for all of the above reasons and more.

 

[CaitSeith]

Oh and one of the streams they promoted on Ninja's channel was broadcasting porn. Just....outright porn. Right there, on a kid friendly channel that had 14 Million subs. Porn. Yeah.

Oh, you just didn't just pull the "think about the children" card, did you? That's hilarious!

 

[CaitSeith]

Remember PewDiePie got a ban for letting the N-word slip.

One doesn't let N-words slip; one chooses to use N-words.

Yes. Because people have 100% control of every emotional outburst they will ever have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freudian_slip

...I feel like saying it was a Freudian slip maybe isn't best thing to do while trying to defend someone who said the n-word.

This. Also, pretty much the point is if you slip the n-word in an emotional outburst it's because that's your swear word of choice for outbursts.

 

[CritialGaming]

Oh and one of the streams they promoted on Ninja's channel was broadcasting porn. Just....outright porn. Right there, on a kid friendly channel that had 14 Million subs. Porn. Yeah.

Oh, you just didn't just pull the "think about the children" card, did you? That's hilarious!

It was porn!

Nevermind the fact that Twitch has NEVER advertised other streamers on offline accounts. Yet they did it to Ninja, clearly doing so to try and retain his audience on Twitch itself for whomever might still visit his stream page.

And clearly they aren't paying that much attention to who they tried to push because they advertised porn. It isn't about kids, it's about showing how much Twitch doesn't enforce or appear to give a fuck about their own TOS.

The problem has always been that Twitch only enforces TOS when it is convenient for them to do so. and outright ignore it when it would hurt their "preferred" streamers, which ironically always seems to be Thotts.

 

[CaitSeith]

Nevermind the fact that Twitch has NEVER advertised other streamers on offline accounts.

It seems they were trying a new feature. Did you check if other offline accounts were having other streamers advertised at the same time than when this happened?

EDIT: The porn streamer seems to have put his streams in the Fortnite category and hadn't been reported yet.

PS: I just found funny the sudden concern about porn in your comment. lol

 

[CritialGaming]

Nevermind the fact that Twitch has NEVER advertised other streamers on offline accounts.

It seems they were trying a new feature. Did you check if other offline accounts were having other streamers advertised at the same time than when this happened?

EDIT: The porn streamer seems to have put his streams in the Fortnite category and hadn't been reported yet.

PS: I just found funny the sudden concern about porn in your comment. lol

Yeah I don't care about the porn. Pornhub isn't exactly age blocked after all. It's just Twitch's poor consistancy in it's enforcement that bothers me.

 

[Nedoras]

No. But Twitch generally doesn't give a damn about what it's streamers do and that includes being emotionally manipulative and exploitative...

The issue is...define manipulation and exploitation.

The idiocy about Amouranth hiding her marital status and that idiot who donated thousands of dollars to her playing the "nice guy" act hoping to get up in there? Was that manipulative? At least in my opinion, that wasn't...little shady perhaps, but at the end of the day content producers create a brand and persona for themselves, they market that brand, and it's on people to realize what they see on the idiot box isn't necessarily reflective of reality.

What about Kaceytron's She-DSP persona? Is she exploitative? If you go back and watch her earlier content, it becomes obvious she's not nearly as poor a player as she presents herself; she deliberately cultivates a brand of incompetence and buffoonery, because it gets her more exposure and revenue than playing and behaving like a competent adult. Nevertheless, her brand is extremely toxic, and she can always rely upon media to white knight her rather than call her out for the impact her persona has on the perception of gamers, streamers, and particularly women in either.

And, last, what about the latest ZombiUnicorn stunt at E3 this year? One could well agree with her point about booth babes and performers at exhibits...as long as you discount the fact she didn't speak to any of the women involved, to hear or charitably represent their point of view, until the matter was publicly forced by one of the actual dancers. Or that she completely failed to recognize the men in the dance troupe, or the women's costumes were more conservative than typical house/scene/rave fashion. Or that, as typical, her first recourse for anyone that so much as kindly disagreed with her was to fling rather nasty insults, including towards other women who weren't in complete lockstep with her opinion. Or that she was pulling quite similar stunts the entire duration of E3 as an official spokesperson complete with media pass, and ignoring equal if not worse behavior by other Twitch partners, up to and including what I believe was a livestreamed twerking contest involving actual strippers "on the job" so to speak. Or that, given her Twitch partner status, her relationship with her platform is much the same as the dancers' she called out for all of the above reasons and more.

When I say manipulative or exploitative, I'm talking about them being that way towards their own communities/viewers. I'd have to actually see how these individuals interact with their community and what kind of community that they foster to really comment on if they're being manipulative or exploitative towards them. But, I'll still give my two cents on these examples.

With Amouranth I'd say it all depends how she reacted to that individual donating stupid amounts of money and being weird about it on top of that. If she egged it on or didn't do anything about it, then yeah that's pretty exploitative. Some guy donating thousands of dollars expecting some kind of relationship to form clearly isn't in a good place. I know that if I was in her in that situation I'd try to do something about it. Her never saying that she's married isn't necessarily manipulative, and even if people knew I don't think it would even remotely stop things like that from happening. But how she responds to shit like that is important.

As for Kaceytron, a persona of being a "bad gamer" isn't manipulative or exploitative per say, but she definitely has used it to create and exploit controversy for publicity. Her persona IS toxic, but that's a whole other problem. I have no idea how she treats her own community though.

ZombiUnicorn....isn't that one of the people who did the whole Bully Hunters thing? I'd lump her in with Kaceytron as someone who tries to create controversy and exploit the hell out of it for publicity. Like I said, toxicity and the like is also a problem.

Toxicity and manipulating or exploiting your audience can intertwine though. It's just that I don't know if that's the case with them as I've never watched them.

Also, it is on people to realize what they see on the screen isn't reflective of reality, but it's also on streamers to responsibly manage and interact with their communities. As I earlier pointed out, more and more people in very recent times go to the internet to cope with all sorts of issues. This is nothing but an anecdote, but the sheer number of times I've seen a donation that read "thanks I'm really depressed and have so many problems and you help me with that" is insane. I'd really love to see some form of study on Twitch, mental health, and how healthy all of this is. Because some streamers don't really realize the position they have over some people, and sometimes respond in ways that just fuel the flames.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

...Because some streamers don't really realize the position they have over some people, and sometimes respond in ways that just fuel the flames.

I don't believe any of it is healthy on any level. You have a platform that actively incentivizes reality TV behavior, but without any editorial control, production management, consultancy, representation, professional vetting, or PR/image management. Twitch encourages extremes; people have to play extremely good, or behave extremely poorly, to get views. Meanwhile, there's practically zero middle ground in terms of success on the platform; you're either a Twitch partner and making bank, or not and likely barely making side hustle money. Then you have that Twitch protects its whales to their very eyeteeth, and everyone else gets thrown to the wolves at the drop of a hat.

It's a perpetual race to the bottom to be the biggest dipshit with the best hustle, because while the barriers to entry could not possibly be lower, the barriers to success are so high that any and every comparative advantage to other aspiring streamers can and must be exploited to the hilt. And for every major streamer who fucks up badly enough to start losing sponsorships and advertisers (where Twitch likely makes most of their money), there are a dozen more waiting in the wings who may or may not behave even worse. Which means that in today's "1984 was an instruction manual" goldfish-memory media landscape, there's zero incentive nor consequence for selectivity in spokespeople.

 

[McElroy]

I for one enjoy the shitshows most.

As I earlier pointed out, more and more people in very recent times go to the internet to cope with all sorts of issues. This is nothing but an anecdote, but the sheer number of times I've seen a donation that read "thanks I'm really depressed and have so many problems and you help me with that" is insane. I'd really love to see some form of study on Twitch, mental health, and how healthy all of this is. Because some streamers don't really realize the position they have over some people, and sometimes respond in ways that just fuel the flames.

I think it's more of a rule that the streamers don't take donation messages seriously, because if they did it could actually encourage people to think there is a chance of a "real" friendship with them which would include talking about heavy real life things. With that in mind the depressing donation messages are probably trolls most of the time.

Honestly, I can't see the seriousness on the level you do, but I'm glad to hear a differing opinion about it. Like, I don't think the reality tv behavior is bad if you recognize its ridiculousness. And if you don't... I can't imagine a *new* problem Twitch would bring into the mix for those people.

 

[Nedoras]

...Because some streamers don't really realize the position they have over some people, and sometimes respond in ways that just fuel the flames.

I don't believe any of it is healthy on any level. You have a platform that actively incentivizes reality TV behavior, but without any editorial control, production management, consultancy, representation, professional vetting, or PR/image management. Twitch encourages extremes; people have to play extremely good, or behave extremely poorly, to get views. Meanwhile, there's practically zero middle ground in terms of success on the platform; you're either a Twitch partner and making bank, or not and likely barely making side hustle money. Then you have that Twitch protects its whales to their very eyeteeth, and everyone else gets thrown to the wolves at the drop of a hat.

It's a perpetual race to the bottom to be the biggest dipshit with the best hustle, because while the barriers to entry could not possibly be lower, the barriers to success are so high that any and every comparative advantage to other aspiring streamers can and must be exploited to the hilt. And for every major streamer who fucks up badly enough to start losing sponsorships and advertisers (where Twitch likely makes most of their money), there are a dozen more waiting in the wings who may or may not behave even worse. Which means that in today's "1984 was an instruction manual" goldfish-memory media landscape, there's zero incentive nor consequence for selectivity in spokespeople.

Oh I agree, I don't believe it's healthy either. So much about what happens on Twitch, Youtube, and the like is fucked. It really needs to be professionally examined and dragged into the spotlight. These platforms at some point are going to have to acknowledge what they're allowing, and change things. They're never going to do so though unless they're forced to. If that ever even happens anyway. Right now it seems we're still at the phase where media pieces are just condemning individual streamers, rather than the kind of behavior that Twitch not only allows but encourages.

 

[Nedoras]

I for one enjoy the shitshows most.

As I earlier pointed out, more and more people in very recent times go to the internet to cope with all sorts of issues. This is nothing but an anecdote, but the sheer number of times I've seen a donation that read "thanks I'm really depressed and have so many problems and you help me with that" is insane. I'd really love to see some form of study on Twitch, mental health, and how healthy all of this is. Because some streamers don't really realize the position they have over some people, and sometimes respond in ways that just fuel the flames.

I think it's more of a rule that the streamers don't take donation messages seriously, because if they did it could actually encourage people to think there is a chance of a "real" friendship with them which would include talking about heavy real life things. With that in mind the depressing donation messages are probably trolls most of the time.

Honestly, I can't see the seriousness on the level you do, but I'm glad to hear a differing opinion about it. Like, I don't think the reality tv behavior is bad if you recognize its ridiculousness. And if you don't... I can't imagine a *new* problem Twitch would bring into the mix for those people.

That's the thing though. Sure they might not take those donations seriously, or even react with sincerity, but how does the person seeing that reaction feel about that? How do they interpret it? And I've seen plenty of streamers who DO respond sincerely to those messages and take them seriously. It's yet again, an anecdote, but it's why I'm interested in a study on how these interactions can really impact someone's mental health. If it's good or bad or both. Shrugging it off as being trolling is reductive.

No, I don't think it's bad if everyone realized that it was all nonsense and were really self aware about it....to a point. But that's not the case. I'm not even saying that it's truly something serious and a big problem. But, it is a problem at the very least, and it think it warrants investigation. For example, I'd like to see some data on how many people feel legitimately attached to their favorite streamers and why. And then maybe look into those whys. I know I seem adamant about this, but mental health is one of the issues that I care about the most. I just would like to know how much stuff like this really has an impact on people and how widespread it is. If the possible positives outweigh the possible negatives and vice-versa.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Girl does a couple of stupid things, hate groups decides to fuck up her life forever for it.

God man If I streamed all the weird impulses and things I say without thinking about it everybody would hate me forever. And saying sorry doesn't work on the internet either.

 

[RaikuFA]

Girl does a couple of stupid things, hate groups decides to fuck up her life forever for it.

God man If I streamed all the weird impulses and things I say without thinking about it everybody would hate me forever. And saying sorry doesn't work on the internet either.

Really? People are upset at the double standards. The blatant favoritism. It needs to stop. Not just with Twitch but YouTube as well.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Girl does a couple of stupid things, hate groups decides to fuck up her life forever for it.

Let me fix this for you.

Grown-ass women who damn well ought to know better, who have been streaming for a good couple years bare minimum with consistent revenue streams in the high five figures bare minimum per month, have patterns of behavior that go back to the genesis of their fame, face well-deserved pushback for acting the damn fool on the internet, and their platform faces very well-deserved pushback for allowing the situation to devolve to the point it has for profit. Most of the women involved could probably retire right now, and if they have decent money smarts or a good accountant, live comfortably off the interest alone.

The only way this "fucks up lives forever" is if the women involved are both historically bad with money management, and are incapable of acting like god damn adults on their platforms.