The Case For Grinding in RPGs

[ssjdkcrew]

Recently, the subject of grinding in RPGs has come to my attention; that many modern RPGs seem to be trying their best to excise grinding entirely, and I think that this is certainly a topic that deserves discussion.

Grinding, like all game elements, can be done very well or very badly. If done badly, as in, for example, early Phantasy Star games, it can come off as just repeating the same action over and over with very little payoff in exchange for doing so. On the other hand, it can be done well, as in Kingdom Hearts, allowing the player some freedom of motion during the grind, or as in Shining Force; with the gameplay during the grind involving real strategy, which must be carefully-considered. "The Elder Scrolls" manages both of these on some level, combined with allowing you to grind individual skills, which can be improved in a training-like way, and in my view, "Quest For Glory"; one of my top 5 favorite game series of all time, did it even better.

However, some ask, why grind at all? What do we get, except the same kinds of actions over and over, which don't advance the plot or involve much gameplay difference?

I think a good case can be made for grinding, on the basis of two things that it allows a game to do, which no other gameplay element allows for.

1. Simulated training.

Bruce Lee once said that he feared not the man who'd practiced 10,000 kicks once, but rather, the man who'd practiced one kick 10,000 times. Well, the same is true when training oneself in anything. Any skill, in order to be mastered, must be practiced over and over, and if one does so, one distinctly improves in it. Imitating this factor of skill or character improvement in a natural way (rather than, for example, buying new skills at the local shop, a-la Spider-man 2,) is going to involve repetition, to simulate the repetition that would be involved in *actually* training that skill. That's what everybody means by "grind."

Video games, remember, are a form of art, and if art is going to imitate life, we've got to let it have the freedom to not be immediately and instantly entertaining for every single second of the game, but that said...

2. Satisfaction of payoff for work.

In real life, one often does tedious work for hours at a time, only to find that, in the end, there's no really satisfying payoff. The virtues of persistence, and even exceptional talent, are often rewarded with a mere lack of being fired, or at best, a 1 dollar raise, that works out to be less than you were being paid before, somehow.

Video games, however, have the chance to offer something better. They can reward persistence and hard work with an incredible payoff, and a great sense of accomplishment. Indeed, this long-term satisfaction is even deeper and more rewarding once obtained, because it was something you were looking forward to, and when it happened, you were pleased that you accomplished it.

Many people fail to appreciate this second factor, including some folks on certain youtube videos, just because it's not the same as instant gratification, but I've played games that are thrill-a-minute games (Prince of Persia; the Sands of Time, for instance,) and while they do offer a kind of fun, that fun is over when it's over. Accomplishing a long grind gives one a feeling that one has just overcome a great obstacle, and in better cases, that feeling can last well beyond the moment when you put down the controller/mouse.

In fact, I consider it a great tragedy that modern video games do grinding so infrequently. Not long ago, a game was announced, which claimed to be an RPG in the style of Quest For Glory, and one of the first things they announced was "no grinding." It made me want to bang my head against a wall, since grinding was such a central and well-executed part of QFG. Robbing gamers of the freedom to grind is not a positive trait of a video game.

The training process is just as valid a gameplay element as any other, and should be treated respectfully, and yes; improved upon. I'm just about at the point of saying that if a game doesn't have some form of grinding, I'm not interested in it anymore. This is why I've considered every Elder Scrolls title since Morrowind to be a step down. There just aren't as many skills to improve in as there once were (yes, Daggerfall had more than Morrowind, but Morrowind streamlined the grinding process in many ways, making it more enjoyable overall.)

So, yes, I like grinding *a lot* when it's done well, and like any gameplay element, if it's done poorly, I probably won't enjoy it as much, but I'd rather live with it than without it.

What are your thoughts on this? Is there a place for gamers like me, who want to grind, and grind well? What, if anything, can be done to revive this often-neglected gameplay element?

 

[tippy2k2]

In general, I hate grinding. As one of those gamers who somehow became an adult, I have much less time than I did back in my yesteryears. Final Fantasy (and JRPG's in general) used to be some of my favored games. Now so many of them go unplayed by yours truly because they take 80+ hours to play with half of that being grinding.

The only time grinding is fine with me is a time when...well...anything would be fine with me; when it's fun.

For example, I just finished Saint's Row IV (you should go play it if you haven't; I'll wait here....you done? Good). I found myself running all over the place doing all the mini-missions because they were fun and hilarious. What I was doing WAS grinding (doing a bunch of little actions that don't advance the story in order to become stronger) but they were FUN to do. That's the big variable that so many "grinding" games forget; if I'm not having fun (or getting some kind of emotion besides "fuck me I'm so freaking bored"), then you have failed at your game.

That however is where the definition of "Fun" messes with grinding. What I find fun is going to be different from you what you find fun is going to be different than what my Dad finds fun is going to be different from what a ten year old girl is going to find fun...

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Grinding is nothing but a Skinner Box method to get you to play the game longer. The whole reason behind not getting everything at the start of the game is that the player will be overloaded with skills/abilities/feats/powers/etc. so it makes to give the player something new and try it out for about an hour. Lots of RPGs take this way too far to the point where you are literally only playing to get the next thing. That is the fallacy of most MMOs, instead of giving me gameplay I'll enjoy for hours on end, they make you level for hours on end. I played Metal Gear Online for 4 years every week because it had the best gameplay of any online shooter, not because I was trying to get something. I quit playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer because I was literally just playing to earn money to buy card packs to get new characters and items. If the game would've just given me the stuff I wanted from the start, I would've played the game longer than I did. PayDay 2 has the same problem as well, you just play to get new things instead of playing just to play.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

My kind of rule guideline for grinding is that it is OK if you are grinding of your own intention. Like if you replay the same map in COD over and over because you like it, or because you want to get really really good at it. The problem comes in when your grinding because the game wants you or is forcing you. Like when you have pay over and over again to get access to the content that you really find enjoyable.

 

[Another]

Grinding can be ok. As you said, Elder Scrolls essentially allows you to grind up skill to get better (though I would argue that only applies to certain skills like smithing. Leveling your One-Handed by killing dudes is just playing the game). But that's the thing. I'm allowed to do it. It is a choice.

Basically if a game requires that I grind, like some of the harder old school RPG's, I just put the game down. I don't have time for that shit anymore. Same reason I've stopped playing most mmo's since I was in high school. I've got to much to do, and I want to do more with that minimal time than fill up a bar.

I mean if you enjoy grinding, more power to you. Everyone has fun in different ways, but it is just boring for me.

 

[Remaiki]

There are two sides of the coin when it comes to grinding, in my opinion. First, there is the more conventional form of grinding - the stuff you find in RPGs more often that not, where you need to grind to increase stats to continue the game. Second, there is 'grinding for mastery', essentially, where the grinding is done to increase one's skill at the game, rather than the hard numbers in the game itself.

I find the first form of grinding to be a tool used to create the illusion of progression where there is, in reality, none. This isn't a problem, really, but all too often is grinding used as a main part of a game, rather than being allowed to simply compound true skill-based progression. The second form I find to be laudable despite the title of 'grinding' because I think when a game is testing the player in some way it should be testing them on skill, rather than arbitrary numbers or time spent.

It is harder to implement a proper difficult curve, however, so developer's can often find themselves leaning on the conventional grinding for their game's progression.

 

[MirenBainesUSMC]

I remember the grinding in Phantasy Star II. It wasn't imposed on you though. You could continue to progress until enemies were too hard to progress --- that is when you generally knew when to grind before you continue. What has happened is the attempt to make RPG's " COD-ified" as I like to call it; Fixed levels usually around 20-25 in which things are generally linear in the progression of the game that is designed to seem long but really, its just a fast game anyone can sit and play. ( and mash buttons)

This type of deal constitutes many of the heavy hitters of today -- DA,DA2, ME1-2-and3. People like playing them but from a true RPG's standpoint, they are very watered down. If it weren't for memorable characters or speech choices, you basically have hack-and-slash or shooters being an RPG in name only.

I would much rather have a chance to explore and enjoy a world rather than rushing to plot points, or that when you hit an area, its no longer necessary for you to re-enter it because you did and killed everything. Not the case in the old RPGs. You went to an area you previously were and generally speaking, you'd still get attacked by low level creatures that weren't worth your time or they did so little damage that they ceased to be a threat. The Turned-Based system has all but been abandoned for the exception of a few remaining AAA game studios and a score of Indie games ( Hello there Dedalic!).

Its an evolution in the end.... into what....well... that falls on the opinion of the observer.

 

[Someone Depressing]

Grinding irritates me; mostly because it tends to serve as padding, because, "Whoops! We've put the boss fight that ends the this character's/story arc in too quickly! Oh well, the players will make up for our lazyness!", which tends to be the case in a lot of examples, but if it's done because I just want to be safe, even if walkthroughs and in-game hints tell that that I'm safely leveled, then I'll do it because I'm a neurotic bastard.

And if writers and artists have created an interesting world, I'd rather trek around that, exploring it and unintentionally getting levels as I go on. It's when develops space things evenly and the creative team is doing their damn job grinding isn't immersion-breaking, hard, or boring.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well I can't say I've played any single player game that has real grinding in a very long time. People like to ***** and complain about it but aside from Pokemon it seems pretty much extinct from what I remember it to be.

 

[LaoJim]

1. Simulated training.

Bruce Lee one said that he feared not the man who'd practiced 10,000 kicks once, but rather, the man who'd practiced one kick 10,000 times. Well, the same is true when training oneself in anything. Any skill, in order to be mastered, must be practiced over and over, and if one does so, one distinctly improves in it. Imitating this factor of skill or character improvement in a natural way (rather than, for example, buying new skills at the local shop, a-la Spider-man 2,) is going to involve repetition, to simulate the repetition that would be involved in *actually* training that skill. That's what everybody means by "grind."

Video games, remember, are a form of art, and if art is going to imitate life, we've got to let it have the freedom to not be immediately and instantly entertaining for every single second of the game, but that said...

Grinding, is by definition I think, doing the same thing again and again. That can make you more skillful, but generally once you've shown you can do a challange once (and certainly once you've done it ten times) there's not too much point in asking you to do it again and again, especially in RPGs where as you level up the challenge actually gets easier. Now I go through periods of playing Geometry Wars compulsively but I don't class it as grinding because there is enough randomness that each game is subtly different and also I am honing skills in the way you suggest. On the other hand Final Fantasy XIII has so many encounters where you are in no danger of dying from the monsters and I've already 5 starred the battle.

2. Satisfaction of payoff for work.

...

Many people fail to appreciate this second factor, including some folks on certain youtube videos, just because it's not the same as instant gratification, but I've played games that are thrill-a-minute games (Prince of Persia; the Sands of Time, for instance,) and while they do offer a kind of fun, that fun is over when it's over. Accomplishing a long grind gives one a feeling that one has just overcome a great obstacle, and in better cases, that feeling can last well beyond the moment when you put down the controller/mouse.

I think you are wrong about this, in the sense I get a rewarding feeling from completing a game and maybe more from 100%ing it, but I still want the game to throw up fresh challenges to me all the way through. Or put it another way if I'm level 5 because I've killed 200 orcs and you are level 10 because you've killed 500 orcs, but my way of killing orcs is faster and my party takes less damage, should you be more gratified by the game than I am and have you accomplished more?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

This is why RPGs have started to move away from the old D&D system (which was what it was because it was a derivation of tactical games where a simple numerical power metric is useful) and into skill-tree systems where you unlock new abilities and the fights become more complex or different more than _harder_ in terms of gear-check/level-check. Dark Souls is a good example of this, it has levels but they're mostly about unlocking new abilities and you can go through the entire game completely legitimately leaving 3/4 of the stats at starting levels.

Dark Souls is a horrible example. You don't get new abilities in Dark Souls, your numbers just go up. You raise your Dex/Str to do more damage. You level your weapons to do more damage. You don't get new moves or abilities for melee characters. You can use the same strategy against every enemy in Dark Souls.

 

[Fox12]

I find grinding to be an obsolete concept. Why feel the benefits of your character getting stronger when you can feel the benefits of you, yourself, becoming more skilled. For instance, in Mass Effect 1 your aim was clunky until you upgraded your character. Combat effectiveness wasn't based on your personal skill, it was based on your ability to compensate for a weaker character. An example of this being done right is Dark Souls. If you are a good enough player, then you can beat the whole game at level 1. Alternatively, if you are terrible at the game, then increasing your level won't save you. That's because your ability as a player is what improves through the gameplay, not your characters stats. Sure, they can benefit you, but you still have to do the heavy lifting. If I die, then it should be because I made the mistake. Nothing is more frustrating then doing everything right, and then losing because I don't have enough strength points.

Kingdom Hearts did so well because at no point did I EVER have to grind. It was an option, but as long as I fought enemies consistently through the narrative I never had to stop in order to level up. There was an RPG leveling system in KH, but it was NOT implemented in such a way as to force you to grind.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

This is why RPGs have started to move away from the old D&D system (which was what it was because it was a derivation of tactical games where a simple numerical power metric is useful) and into skill-tree systems where you unlock new abilities and the fights become more complex or different more than _harder_ in terms of gear-check/level-check. Dark Souls is a good example of this, it has levels but they're mostly about unlocking new abilities and you can go through the entire game completely legitimately leaving 3/4 of the stats at starting levels.

Dark Souls is a horrible example. You don't get new abilities in Dark Souls, your numbers just go up. You raise your Dex/Str to do more damage. You level your weapons to do more damage. You don't get new moves or abilities for melee characters. You can use the same strategy against every enemy in Dark Souls.

You get new abilities from finding new weapons and items. Most games will use a mixture of numbers and abilities. If you use nothing but numbers, then combat gets grind as you repeat the same actions over and over. Though if you use nothing but abilities, you make things more complex and it can some times be hard to tell what is an improvement what isn't. Some times you just want a nice conclusive this is better then what you were doing before.

 

[Britpoint]

In my view it doesn't count as 'grinding' if it isn't a chore.

If I have a game with a well built XP system that levels me up to an appropriate power as I play the game naturally, that isn't grinding. That's just levelling with good game balance.

When I have to stop doing what I want to do in order to kill the same mobs in a given area 10 times in a row, THAT is grinding. So let's have a look at your points.

1. Simulated training.

Bruce Lee one said that he feared not the man who'd practiced 10,000 kicks once, but rather, the man who'd practiced one kick 10,000 times. Well, the same is true when training oneself in anything. Any skill, in order to be mastered, must be practiced over and over, and if one does so, one distinctly improves in it. Imitating this factor of skill or character improvement in a natural way (rather than, for example, buying new skills at the local shop, a-la Spider-man 2,) is going to involve repetition, to simulate the repetition that would be involved in *actually* training that skill. That's what everybody means by "grind."

Any well designed system of training can be implemented without necessitating 'grinding'. For example, in the original Metal Gear Solid I am taught how to sneak past guards by staying out of their line of sight. As the game progresses, I get better at this, the levels get harder to navigate, and I get new tools to help me. This isn't grinding, this is just the natural development of a well constructed mechanic.

If I had to stay in the first level, consistently evading guards to raise my 'Sneak' to the point where I could progress to level 2, that would be grinding.

Perhaps I am arguing semantics here, but I think it is important to not confuse our terms.

2. Satisfaction of payoff for work.

In real life, one often does tedious work for hours at a time, only to find that, in the end, there's no really satisfying payoff. The virtues of persistence, and even exceptional talent, are often rewarded with a mere lack of being fired, or at best, a 1 dollar raise, that works out to be less than you were being paid before, somehow.

Video games, however, have the chance to offer something better. They can reward persistence and hard work with an incredible payoff, and a great sense of accomplishment. Indeed, this long-term satisfaction is even deeper and more rewarding once obtained, because it was something you were looking forward to, and when it happened, you were pleased that you accomplished it.

I agree but again, I think having this at the end of a 'grind' is poor design. There are better ways. What you are describing is not really a 'grand reward after your hard work', but rather an alleviation of frustration. The game has forced you to grind - to repeat a menial, task that withholds your enjoyment. It then stops you from having to do this and gives you something nice. The frustration is removed, so you feel better.

Have you ever been in pain for a reasonable period of time? Maybe you sprained and ankle of pulled a muscle, and you were in constant pain for a few hours or days? When the pain finally stops, you feel really good for a while. You're condition is no better than it normally is, but after a prolonged period of suffering the absence of pain gives you an elevated level of good feeling.

Grinding works in much the same way. You endure the grind until the absence of it can be made to make you feel good. Again, look at my MGS example: there are plenty of challenging sections of that game. They are very tense and difficult to accomplish, but still fun in the minute to minute gameplay. When I succeed at the challenging section, I feel good about it. Here we have a similar effect delivered through an enjoyable challenge, rather than forcing the player to endure a grind.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You don't get new abilities in Dark Souls, your numbers just go up. You raise your Dex/Str to do more damage. You level your weapons to do more damage. You don't get new moves or abilities for melee characters. You can use the same strategy against every enemy in Dark Souls.

You get new abilities from finding new weapons and items. Most games will use a mixture of numbers and abilities. If you use nothing but numbers, then combat gets grind as you repeat the same actions over and over. Though if you use nothing but abilities, you make things more complex and it can some times be hard to tell what is an improvement what isn't. Some times you just want a nice conclusive this is better then what you were doing before.

Are you seriously talking about the minor differences among the weapons' slightly different "special moves" that you never even need to use? You can light attack all game and do just fine. You need to level yourself and the weapon to do enough damage to progress; you can beat enemies with shit weapons but it just takes so long. Normally progressing, you kill enemies with pretty much the same number of hits from the first enemies to the last enemies, only your stats go up.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

You don't get new abilities in Dark Souls, your numbers just go up. You raise your Dex/Str to do more damage. You level your weapons to do more damage. You don't get new moves or abilities for melee characters. You can use the same strategy against every enemy in Dark Souls.

You get new abilities from finding new weapons and items. Most games will use a mixture of numbers and abilities. If you use nothing but numbers, then combat gets grind as you repeat the same actions over and over. Though if you use nothing but abilities, you make things more complex and it can some times be hard to tell what is an improvement what isn't. Some times you just want a nice conclusive this is better then what you were doing before.

Are you seriously talking about the minor differences among the weapons' slightly different "special moves" that you never even need to use? You can light attack all game and do just fine. You need to level yourself and the weapon to do enough damage to progress; you can beat enemies with shit weapons but it just takes so long. Normally progressing, you kill enemies with pretty much the same number of hits from the first enemies to the last enemies, only your stats go up.

I think you can tell there is a big difference between a sword, a polearm, crossbow, and all the other items/weapons you can use. If you have a spear, you fight different then you do with a sword. Heck you fight different when your using your sword in two hands Vs in one hand. That is not even getting into items and spells that can change the way you do even more then just fight.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I think you can tell there is a big difference between a sword, a polearm, crossbow, and all the other items/weapons you can use. If you have a spear, you fight different then you do with a sword. Heck you fight different when your using your sword in two hands Vs in one hand. That is not even getting into items and spells that can change the way you do even more then just fight.

Dark Souls is mainly about finding "your" weapon and leveling that up all game. You don't get enough resources, without grinding, to level up a bunch of different weapons. The only difference between Dex/Str characters is that one hits harder but swings slower, I bet both do approximately the same amount of DPS. A "rogue" in Dark Souls plays no different than a standard fighter. The limited play styles in Dark Souls was really disappointing.

 

[RavingSturm]

Grinding you say? Ugh brings back memories of any DQ and Morrowind/Oblivion running and jumping/falling all over the place just to able to get a normal walking/running speed. I've paid my dues grinding with games like the FF5/Tactics job system and the drawing system of FF8. Yes it is padding especially in light rpgs in Japan w/c is designed to lengthen the game. For me grinding is not THAT bad if you get a sense of progress. It gets bad if the game is implementing a dynamic leveling system(Oblivion) or when even the most everyday monsters or NPCs can still rip you apart even if your character is already supposed to be high level(I'm looking at you Breath of Fire).

 

[ssjdkcrew]

The only time grinding is fine with me is a time when...well...anything would be fine with me; when it's fun.

For example, I just finished Saint's Row IV (you should go play it if you haven't; I'll wait here....you done? Good). I found myself running all over the place doing all the mini-missions because they were fun and hilarious. What I was doing WAS grinding (doing a bunch of little actions that don't advance the story in order to become stronger) but they were FUN to do. That's the big variable that so many "grinding" games forget; if I'm not having fun (or getting some kind of emotion besides "fuck me I'm so freaking bored"), then you have failed at your game.

That however is where the definition of "Fun" messes with grinding. What I find fun is going to be different from you what you find fun is going to be different than what my Dad finds fun is going to be different from what a ten year old girl is going to find fun...

I think you've just outlined the difference between good and bad grinding. Good grinding asks something of the player, or involves them in some way. I suggested two types, but I'm sure there are others.

That is the fallacy of most MMOs, instead of giving me gameplay I'll enjoy for hours on end, they make you level for hours on end.

This seems to imply that leveling is not enjoyable. I disagree.

I played Metal Gear Online for 4 years every week because it had the best gameplay of any online shooter, not because I was trying to get something.

Right. You're not trying to get anything, so there's no sense that your character has improved or gotten anything new for his efforts. My point is; this is a loss, not a gain.

I quit playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer because I was literally just playing to earn money to buy card packs to get new characters and items. If the game would've just given me the stuff I wanted from the start, I would've played the game longer than I did.

If the game would have given me everything from the start, I wouldn't play it at all, because half the fun of a game is in what you can accomplish.

My kind of rule guideline for grinding is that it is OK if you are grinding of your own intention. Like if you replay the same map in COD over and over because you like it, or because you want to get really really good at it. The problem comes in when your grinding because the game wants you or is forcing you. Like when you have pay over and over again to get access to the content that you really find enjoyable.

Sort of. I'm okay with the game making it harder on those who don't grind for improved strength or character skill, but in terms of content grinding, I generally agree. Grinding should be about the character of an RPG, not about game content. Game content is an accomplishment of the *player,* not the *character,* which takes you out of the illusion, and if you're going to do that, why play an RPG at all?

Basically if a game requires that I grind, like some of the harder old school RPG's, I just put the game down. I don't have time for that shit anymore. Same reason I've stopped playing most mmo's since I was in high school. I've got to much to do, and I want to do more with that minimal time than fill up a bar.

"Filling a bar" would be an example of a bad way to grind. Good grinding involves the player in other ways, while also allowing them to repeat the same kinds of tasks for bonuses/strength/level-ups.

I'm speaking of grinding only in the broadest sense of "doing the same thing many times to make your character improve."

As for MMOs, I've never really gotten into them. Too expensive for too little payoff.

I mean if you enjoy grinding, more power to you.

Yup. That's me.

There are two sides of the coin when it comes to grinding, in my opinion. First, there is the more conventional form of grinding - the stuff you find in RPGs more often that not, where you need to grind to increase stats to continue the game. Second, there is 'grinding for mastery', essentially, where the grinding is done to increase one's skill at the game, rather than the hard numbers in the game itself.

I find the first form of grinding to be a tool used to create the illusion of progression where there is, in reality, none. This isn't a problem, really, but all too often is grinding used as a main part of a game, rather than being allowed to simply compound true skill-based progression. The second form I find to be laudable despite the title of 'grinding' because I think when a game is testing the player in some way it should be testing them on skill, rather than arbitrary numbers or time spent.

It is harder to implement a proper difficult curve, however, so developer's can often find themselves leaning on the conventional grinding for their game's progression.

I've never thought of that second form as grinding, nor do I see that there is any lack of progression to conventional grinding. Your character progresses from doing a small amount of damage, to doing a larger amount, or perhaps they learn a new move, or can jump higher now, or maybe they run faster, or cast spells better. It's an "illusion" only in the sense that the entire game world of an RPG is an "illusion," so I guess I'm not sure why this wouldn't be progression. Please explain.

Grinding irritates me; mostly because it tends to serve as padding, because, "Whoops! We've put the boss fight that ends the this character's/story arc in too quickly! Oh well, the players will make up for our lazyness!", which tends to be the case in a lot of examples, but if it's done because I just want to be safe, even if walkthroughs and in-game hints tell that that I'm safely leveled, then I'll do it because I'm a neurotic bastard.

And if writers and artists have created an interesting world, I'd rather trek around that, exploring it and unintentionally getting levels as I go on. It's when develops space things evenly and the creative team is doing their damn job grinding isn't immersion-breaking, hard, or boring.

If you gain levels unintentionally, you might as well not be gaining levels at all. There's no mountain to climb, no wall to break through, no hurtle to overcome. You're just waltzing through the game like you would any platformer, except with the occasional number changing offscreen, that effects nothing of any substance.

What I'm talking about is not laziness on the part of developers (I've run into that on occasion too, and I agree with you that it's a pain in the neck when I see it,) but rather, a sensation of personally going through the greatest story-type of all time; namely, you try, and you fail. You struggle to get better, come back and succeed. Without the failure and the struggle to improve, success is meaningless.

Artificial play-time padding is pretty much always bad, at best the devs just can't do basic math (e.g. Skyrim's advancement system where it actually bugged the game by causing leveling skills with no impact on combat to increase combat difficulty) and at worst because they're actually skinner-boxing you (any game where NPCs and encounters auto-scale to match your skill level).

Agreed. I disliked most things about Skyrim, and I *hate* level-scaling enemies with a passion.

Grinding _can_ be used somewhat legitimately in games with fixed-challenge encounters to reduce frustration by allowing a means of giving yourself an extra 'edge' if you're just not good enough to play the next section at its intended rating, which was the original intention of level-based systems to begin with.

Well, that's what I'm saying I want. That kind of game.

Generally a game is only considered properly balanced in terms of the difficulty curve if you can more or less play straight through if you know what you're doing, with no more grinding or random encounter stuff than you'd incidentally occur in the process of walking the overmap, etc.

Considered by who?

This is why RPGs have started to move away from the old D&D system (which was what it was because it was a derivation of tactical games where a simple numerical power metric is useful) and into skill-tree systems where you unlock new abilities and the fights become more complex or different more than _harder_ in terms of gear-check/level-check. Dark Souls is a good example of this, it has levels but they're mostly about unlocking new abilities and you can go through the entire game completely legitimately leaving 3/4 of the stats at starting levels.

Well, as I said, I still think metrics have their place, in the sense that the Elder Scrolls series uses them, but I also think it's cool when you can unlock new abilities by training a skill (something that Oblivion sort of toyed with.) However, the problem that I find is that often, even this ability tree mechanic feels completely unnatural, because, like D&D before it, it consists of the formula of "do whatever you've got to do to get your level-up, then pick what bonuses you'll get arbitrarily at level-up time."

I don't think the D&D formula is the best by any means. Still, I understand what it's meant to simulate. A person has been studying for years to become a cleric, so when they gain further experience, it will be experience in their chosen field. It makes sense and I get it.

I like the sense of working towards skill-based upgrades even more, so long as the work is somehow associated with the upgrade (again, see my point about TES and QFG, where, again, it's quite clear what they're trying to simulate) but as I said, the skill tree choices are too often made arbitrarily at level-up time, rather than needing to be worked towards, and that's not the right approach. It's immersion-breaking, because it's not a simulation of anything real or real-like.

One game that I thought did this pretty well, (even though I don't think it was a good game,) was Final Fantasy 9. You could equip items that would allow you to train in new techniques, and when you mastered the technique, you could use it without having the item equipped. Granted, this makes no sense from a storytelling perspective, but at least you have to commit some effort to earning the things you want, and stay on the same tack for a while. The game asked something of the player, and therefore, the accomplishment felt meaningful.

 

[Therumancer]

My basic attitude is that most people simply don't have the patience or want to put in the time. It's not a matter of "I'm an adult and have other things to do" that's an excuse, because honestly as a kid you probably had even less time when you get down to it. It's a desire for immediate gratification, and I can sort of understand that. There is nothing wrong with people wanting immediate gratification from games. Grinding and games that involve it, are aimed at
a different kind of audience. The problem is of course a game industry intent on not willing to create games for different audiences which of course leads to increased clashes among gamers over basic ideas like this due to knowing that the industry is not going to even try to cater to all major audiences.

When it comes to an RPG game, part of the point of "grinding" is that it simulates the adventuring and monster hunting adventurers are supposed to get up to, as opposed to just following the plotline. A lot of RPG fans basically want to have a plot present, but also want to basically just get involved in some basic hack and slash dungeon crawling when the mood strikes them within the experience. Furthermore part of the fun of RPGs is to see how badly you can break the game by providing a disproportionate amount of power to the game structure. There is a sort of satisfaction some people can't understand in say not following the plot as soon as you can, and then say one shotting the final boss after his lengthy intro. Some games like the "Disgaea" series are actually all about the whole "applying disproportionate power to the game structure" and make it a recurring joke in the series, sure you can just flat out play through the storyline if you want to, and it's not even very hard, on the other hand it also involves a lot of weird stuff in the game that can only be discovered by trying to "break" it and then find out "oh wow, the game developers actually thought of that" and providing absolutely obscene things to overcome... a sort of game within a game.

With the recent "Divinity: Original Sin" one of the big complaints about it is of course the lack of ability to grind, and this the lack of ability to max out your favorite character tor play with all the toys. One of the first complaints about it (despite it's success) was how the monsters stay dead, and how some of the challenges seemed kind of arbitrary as the difficulty largely depended on how much you optimized your characters along very specific lines, which sucks in a game that basically invites you to screw around with a lot of different things. You can't say select a skill, decide "hmmm don't really like that" and then go grind some more to pick something else and un-gimp a character in a game where monsters are finite.

To me the trick to making grinding work is to make the game complex enough where your gaining things constantly. I think a big part of the problem with grinding is the move towards simplification. There is a huge difference between say slogging through two hours of fighting in order to get a single level up and a trivial increase. On the other hand if level ups are fast and furious, but there are thousands of different things to raise, experiment with, and fool around with, it can actually become fairly addictive.

The size of games also matters to some extent as well, take the recent review of Darklands, a game world of a size and depth you rarely see nowadays. That game DID involve a lot of grinding, but the grinding happened as you played, and there were almost always things to strive for. In "Darklands" for example there is no central plotline, your just a band of adventurers out to make a career for yourself, and all kinds of things are happening through the kingdoms. Of course this is also misleading, because in Darklands there are actually at least 3 (I think 4) central plotlines, to find and defeat the Knights Templar, to Find and Destroy The Witches Black Mass (and cripple witchcraft through the lands), and to slay The Dragon (note the "the"), all of which are things hinted at and woven through the game. Once you completed all of those major plotlines you could be considered to have "won" Darklands as almost all the lore and little hints came down to those big events. The point being in Darklands there was always something to be moving towards. The one downside I felt the game had was your characters aging, which could sometimes lead to you literally playing a game
multi-generationally.