The Dark Knight

[AuntyEthel]

None of that. I don't think I can actually argue with someone like you. Apologies if that comes of as harsh but, well, no, actually, superhero films aren't supposed to be subtle they're supposed to deal with superlatives. The most heroic, the most evil, the strongest, the weakest. And Batman Begins and The Dark Knight do that so well.

The two Burton Batman movies had loads of subtlety and character development which were completely lost in Begins.

If you genuinely meant the bold text then you obviously aren't judging it properly.

Don't full the personal opinion bull as well, Michael Bay < Christopher Nolan. Just from technical points of view as a director. Plus if you even have a vague interest/understanding in the audio/visual techniques in film then The Dark Knight is worth seeing just for that.

You tell me not to put in personal opinions, then give a personal opinion?

Jaws not deep enough for you?

You clearly ignored my point about old movies.

Jurassic Park just for kids?

Yup

Die Hard just about explosions?

I don't think many people would deny it.

You people are ruining films as much as the Epic Movie lot because you'll reject quality films purely on the basis that they're crowd pleasers.

Absolute horseshit. Me not liking the movie didn't stop it making almost a billion at the box office.

Out of interest, what was the last film you really enjoyed?

This is England, on DVD. Proof that big budget =/= good movie.

 

[JaguarWong]

I'd be interested to hear of what you films you actually like.

I read all your points I can't really agree with any of your criticism. You say the duality of Batman/Joker is clearer in the Burton Batman film, I can't see how you can possible just say that and move on.

I didn't just say that and move on.
My point is that for two characters to be shown as similar yet opposite thy have to share more than an effect.
In Batman ('89) the two characters back stories are both intertwined and parallel- an immensely difficult narrative structure that is executed so well that it goes almost unnoticed.
There is nothing of the sort in the Dark Knight - the only reason any kind of dark/light dynamic exists at all is because the clunky script does it's best to force us to see one.

On your other point, for me the best films ever made include:

Dr Strangelove
Don't Look Now
A Matter of Life and Death
Branded to Kill
The Good the Bad and the Ugly
Le Samurai
Badlands

I also think that Memento is the best American movie of the last 10 years and have been continually disapointed with the tripe Nolan has turned out since.

More relevantly my favourite comic book movies are Barbarella, Flash Gordon and Batman.

 

[rossatdi]

The two Burton Batman movies had loads of subtlety and character development which were completely lost in Begins.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, sure it did. Like the bit where, er, or the, nope. Hmm, sorry point some out? You mean something on the lines of a the running theme of people telling a loved one "its okay" whilst they violently die?

You tell me not to put in personal opinions, then give a personal opinion?

Because I have better things to be doing than teaching people on an internet forum about the technicalities of film, an obviously it would be an uphill struggle with you.

You clearly ignored my point about old movies.

No, I read it and assumed you were one of those people with modern-blindness. Jaws is a blockbuster and you said the words "best blockbuster of the year" turn you off. Well I'm pretty sure Jaws would have got heat from a lot people were it released today. There's a culture of blockbuster=stupid. Admittedly there are a lot of stupid blockbusters, but there are also a vast number more of them. Also, Heat (1995), or The Departed for that matter, or Children of Men.

Jurassic Park just for kids?

Yup

That kind of seals it really doesn't it?

Die Hard just about explosions?

I don't think many people would deny it.

I think many film fans would. And also, you're digging your own grave here.

Absolute horseshit. Me not liking the movie didn't stop it making almost a billion at the box office.

Yes mate, but its the attitude isn't it? If people know they're film is going to deemed stupid before people even see it, especially when something is as critically and popularly acclaimed as The Dark Knight, sends the wrong message. You should go and see, then you'd help send the message that, actually, we want to see something good and big.

This is England, on DVD. Proof that big budget =/= good movie.

Sunshine, proof a modest budget can = great blockbuster.

 

[rossatdi]

I'd be interested to hear of what you films you actually like.

I read all your points I can't really agree with any of your criticism. You say the duality of Batman/Joker is clearer in the Burton Batman film, I can't see how you can possible just say that and move on.

I didn't just say that and move on.
My point is that for two characters to be shown as similar yet opposite thy have to share more than an effect.
In Batman ('89) the two characters back stories are both intertwined and parallel- an immensely difficult narrative structure that is executed so well that it goes almost unnoticed.

Joker kils his parents. Joker rises up mob ranks. Joker becomes, well the Joker. My god, the complexity just blew my fucking mind. And the thing about them chasing the same girl. Yeah, its pretty complex work. [/sarcasm]

There is nothing of the sort in the Dark Knight - the only reason any kind of dark/light dynamic exists at all is because the clunky script does it's best to force us to see one.

But The Dark Knight isn't about explaining the Joker's motives. He is far scarier a threat without adding "but he killed my Dad!". The script is a bit unusual because its quite theatrical, even cheesy, but the point is that its throwing around some good ideas in an accessible block buster.

On your other point, for me the best films ever made include:

Dr Strangelove
Don't Look Now
A Matter of Life and Death
Branded to Kill
The Good the Bad and the Ugly
Le Samurai
Badlands

I also think that Memento is the best American movie of the last 10 years and have been continually disapointed with the tripe Nolan has turned out since.

More relevantly my favourite comic book movies are Barbarella, Flash Gordon and Batman.

Oh, Memento? Yeah. It is a damn good film. What with its British director, writers and star. Thanks for paying for that America. Interesting what defines film's country isn't it?

I've been dying to see Le Samourai for ages but its a bugger to get ahold of a reasonable amount of cash.

So basically you like comic book films if they stick in the camp ghetto?

 

[JaguarWong]

Joker kils his parents. Joker rises up mob ranks. Joker becomes, well the Joker. My god, the complexity just blew my fucking mind. And the thing about them chasing the same girl. Yeah, its pretty complex work. [/sarcasm]

If that's all you see then you're missing out on a lot - if you're just being glib then, well, ok, well done.

the point is that its throwing around some good ideas in an accessible block buster.

20 years after Batman threw around better ideas in a better blockbuster.

Oh, Memento? Yeah. It is a damn good film. What with its British director, writers and star. Thanks for paying for that America. Interesting what defines film's country isn't it?

Ignoring the fact that Guy Pierce is Australian it's still an American movie - I wish it were British, probably would've been even better for it, but it's not.

So basically you like comic book films if they stick in the camp ghetto?

No I like comic book movies (all movie actually) that achieve their goals - a successful film is one that tells it's story successfully. The Dark Knight is not successful - it does not even know what it's story is.

 

[Rath709]

It was an awful film. Badly plotted, little character exploration, 90% hype. Not a patch on the brilliant Batman Begins.

 

[rossatdi]

The Dark Knight is not successful - it does not even know what it's story is.

Well okay, if you say so. Sure you don't mean you didn't know what it's story is?

 

[JaguarWong]

Well okay, if you say so. Sure you don't mean you didn't know what it's story is?

Nope - like Nolans previous two movies it doesn't understand what is important in the narrative - Nolan seems incapable of knowing what to leave out of his stories in order to better convey the narrative.

In short, as I stated right from the beginning, he lacks subtlety.

 

[rossatdi]

Well okay, if you say so. Sure you don't mean you didn't know what it's story is?

Nope - like Nolans previous two movies it doesn't understand what is important in the narrative - Nolan seems incapable of knowing what to leave out of his stories in order to better convey the narrative.

In short, as I stated right from the beginning, he lacks subtlety.

Wait, I thought you said Memento was the best film of the last ten years? Isn't that Nolan?

Sometimes people deserve more than narrative. Sorry, couldn't resist the half quote. But yeah, I really liked the plotting of Dark Knight. I don't know why you didn't. I'm a bit of a film snob and a geek I loved it, my brother is an indie scene tosser - loved it, my Mum is a 53 year old teacher, loved it, my Dad's a 55 year old businessman - loved it.

 

[JaguarWong]

I really liked the plotting of Dark Knight. I don't know why you didn't.

There's a review you might want to read somewhere near the beginning of this thread

Wait, I thought you said Memento was the best film of the last ten years? Isn't that Nolan?

Absolutely.
But then the man who made Jaws made E.T.
The man who made Dr Strangelove made Eyes Wide Shut.
The man who made Karate Kid made Rocky V
etc etc etc

 

[rossatdi]

I really liked the plotting of Dark Knight. I don't know why you didn't.

There's a review you might want to read somewhere near the beginning of this thread

Yeah but I find it very hard to value the opinion of someone who wrote this with a straight face:

It is worth pointing out, however, that Jack Nicholson was sparring with the talent of Michael Keaton and poor old Heath Ledger gets to show up the personality vacuum that is Christian Bale. Bale delivers a take on Bruce Wayne who is as smug and unlikeable as Keaton's was self effacing and funny.

The talent of Michael Keaton? Bwah?
Bruce Wayne is supposed to be smug and unlikeable or at least in public. That's half the damn point!
If Michael Keaton somehow managed to give off either scary-badass driven or selfish playboy he didn't do it either the Batman films I've seen with him in. You're really putting him up against the drunk speech in Begins?

Also, planned chaos is not a contradiction. You can't cause very much chaos by stumbling around without a plan. Personal plotting does not disregard the outcome being widespread chaos.

Nicholson's Joker was an amusing clown who killed a few people but could barely be called "a threat". Ledger's Joker, sitting in the prison cell, is one of the most spectacularly terrifying villains on screen.

Absolutely.
But then the man who made Jaws made E.T.
The man who made Dr Strangelove made Eyes Wide Shut.
The man who made Karate Kid made Rocky V
etc etc etc

To be fair to Spielberg his entire career seems to oscillate seemingly at random. I mean have you seen War of the Worlds? That's a Michael Bay film right there.

Wait Karate Kid and Rocky V, which direction is your point going there? One is absolutely hilarious, wait, they're both hilariously awful.

As for Kubrik, don't care.

Point is you seemed to be ripping on Prestige and Dark Knight in favour of a film that's intentionally patchy with its plotting.

 

[Zeldadudes]

hm, well this film is not a remake, it's a completely different take on the joker, so you can't really compare this with the first one.

Some may think it irrelevant to compare ?Batman? and ?The Dark Knight? but this is untrue. The films share far more common elements than the names of a few characters and as such refusing a comparison would be small minded.

But I digress...

Whereas Jack Nicholson?s incarnation was an unpredictable lunatic, Ledgers is a far more thoughtful and calculated antagonist. The Joker here has a plan for chaos and if that sounds to you like a contradiction then you?d be absolutely correct and as a result of this and other similar factors the character never quite rounds out properly. It's not a case that there are too many questions leading to vague character but rather that there are too many answers which instead leads to an uninteresting one. But this is a problem that extends to every character in the piece just as it did previously in Batman Begins. In the case of Ledgers character, as with every aspect of every character in both films, nothing is left unexplained - even the fact that our Joker has no real name or previous life is painstakingly laid before us.

This is not a mockery but you have missed out a few important facts.
Both Jokers are different.
Jack Nicolson played a Joker that had influenced Bruce Wayne to become the Batman. In Tim Burtons Batman there is a sequence where you see Jack Nicolson shoot his mother and father after they leave the cinema.
Heath Ledger played a Joker that on the outside was sadistic and mad whereas internally he was a very graceful and clever man.

I agree with what you are saying on half of the story. I found that the action sequences were not worth putting in as they often confused me and were hard to tell who had done what and why etc.
I also found that some of the smaller characters, the mayor, Alfred and Rachel? (can't remember) were really not that important. It was as if they were crammed in just so the major fans could look into more detail about the story.
I never really found any sort of conclusion to Joker in The Dark Knight, as in why he did it and how it had started, this was quite hard to take and not argue with.

As my brother just mentioned to me he thought the film should have been called "Joker: The Dark Knight". In a sense i agree with him, i didn't enjoy the fact that Batman wasn't in half of the film whereas the Joker reigned supreme.

Anyway i like this post and i hope people all share their views

 

[Vampire Kitteh]

Whereas Jack Nicholson?s incarnation was an unpredictable lunatic, Ledgers is a far more thoughtful and calculated antagonist. The Joker here has a plan for chaos

Sorry I just pissed myself laughing I mean Jack Nicholson a psychotic joker?
Not only does does Ledgers Joker a psyco hes somewhat of an intellect who knows human nature

You mentioned Nicholsons Joker was out for revenge on Batman been a better plot well that misses the point of Joker altogther

Ledgers Joker is the Joker as he was portrayed in the comics. The Joker never wanted to kill Batman he wanted to break him did you miss Batmans one rule plot? you know lines like 'HIT ME!' and 'You complete me'- He loved sparring with Batman he beleived only he and batman existed did you never read the Killing joke ? or the long Halloween? cos the impression I get is your not a Batman fan. did you miss the joke where where Joker used increasing bigger wepons to kill Harvey Dent in the chase? Its called Dark Humour also note the pencil trick where he predicted the mob before they did anything that is scary.

thats pretty deep compared to 'Wah he killed my parents' =[ and 'aw damn he scarred my face Ill kill him' >=[

You dont even mention Two Face? Batman Killed him breaking his one rule the whole point of the film Joker won hes broken Batman. Also some mentioned the rise and fall Harvey Dent been the plot he went from been a white knight to a vigilante mirroring Batman but killing his victems thats a deep plotline.

Also the Joker proved that anyone including the white knight could become crazy that pays homage to 'just one bad day'again you dont read the comics you watch Joel Shumachers/ Tim Burtons crap

The White knight became the Dark Knight the title of the film a subtle reference to Two Face, so yeah Nolan can be very subtle

 

[JaguarWong]

You mentioned Nicholsons Joker was out for revenge on Batman...

No I didn't.

The White knight became the Dark Knight the title of the film a subtle reference to Two Face, so yeah Nolan can be very subtle

How is it subtle when it's mentioned in every other line of dialogue that refers to Dent!?

 

[Vampire Kitteh]

Sometimes I get big headed. my mistake Im sure someon else metioned the revenge plot somewhere. My apologies

onwards =D

These are good points even I came out of the theatre thinking what the? The film tries to be too clever and you have to try figure it out some points

Christopher Nolan?s The Dark Knight is a very hard film to enjoy.
you could say The Dark Knight is glued together by boring scenes because Cristopher Nolan uses everything he films and has never heard of the 'deleted scenes' feature but this will be remedied by the skip button on the DVD

In Batman Begins the action sequences were so badly constructed that it was actually impossible to grasp what was supposed to be happening.

Although I figured what was happening. I thought it was all a bit bland but it did have an impressive ending. the biggest problem with that film I think you may agree is the flashbacks. Also the action scenes were breif and boring

In The Dark Knight Nolan appears to have been bitten by the over compensation bug. Each action sequence lacks both style and pace, the fights seem to be aiming for the realistic brutality of the kind we saw executed so brilliantly in Casino Royale

Hmm most directors bite off more thn they can chew Im personally not looking forwards to the 3rd film. if there is one Yeah the whole realism thing is great its what I love. Im mre irked that these scenes arent realistic an they tried to e too stylish when the film was wearing on (about the halfway point) example Twoface surviving the car crash in his condition. and then Joker getting out of the truck unscathed.

the point to add is the film got a bit boring in parts after the interrogation scene. In fact if felt like it was been streched I mean Harvey Dent suddenly goes missing ?! The Truck flip gave a sens of finallity but I sat there for another hour or so

Ill agree on second thoughts the white knight line was repeated a bit I think I was a bit slow on the uptake.

 

[Bunnymarn]

Yes mate, but its the attitude isn't it? If people know they're film is going to deemed stupid before people even see it, especially when something is as critically and popularly acclaimed as The Dark Knight, sends the wrong message.

The part in bold makes no sense.

 

[rossatdi]

Yes mate, but its the attitude isn't it? If people know they're film is going to deemed stupid before people even see it, especially when something is as critically and popularly acclaimed as The Dark Knight, sends the wrong message.

The part in bold makes no sense.

Ha ha, that's what I get for trying to make an argument on a forum in a busy office.

Never paying full attention. The point I was trying to make (I think) is that the assumption that something will be brainless, and the avoidance of it because of this despite critical acclaim, is very dangerous. If someone told you Epic Movie was really good, you'd think they were lying, but if all your mates and movie reviewers were saying the same I'd be tempted to test my assumptions.

 

[DYin01]

As for the review I couldn't help but feel you were trying to write a negative review just to piss off the fans

If it had been positive would you have said it was that way just to jump on the band-wagon?

Actually at the Escapist the Band Wagon seems to be hatred of something popular rather than the reverse. Thanks to Yahtzee many feel we aren't allowed to enjoy things anymore.

That only applies to people who take Yathzee even remotely seriously.

 

[JaguarWong]

Who's Yahtzee?

Spoiler

Joke!

 

[Typecast]

I really hated batmans voice in this movie and the previous one, it sounds like he's been smoking a pack a day for thirty years. While I loved the film, if for no other reason than I loved the Joker and his chaos, I did feel that parts dragged and weren't exactly necessary. Such as the Two-Face sub-plot, and the silly romance bit with the unlikeable, flat-wooden performance of that woman... what's-her-face-not-worth-googling. And some editing in the slow parts didn't work for me...but the action sequences were fun.