The Dark Souls PC version controversy.

[Stavros Dimou]

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That dosen't mean steam is switching to linux, they won't switch for a simple reason: huge loss of money, windows is the "shit". and there's no chance EVER that the entire steam libary will be compatible with linux that will mean all of the develepoers from all of the companies reworking on their games.

And linux only supports L4D2, so let's all go to linux to gain 10 extra frames *skips*,I highly doubt that companies like EA and 2K or other companies will switch to linux.

So like I said before:

Yeah but most pc gamers doesn't like Win8 at all and prefer to pass,and wait to see if Win9 will be good. Many people are saying that if this "Metro" thing keeps being on Windows versions after Win8,Win7 will be their last Windows OS,and they will keep it as long as Microsoft supports it.

The thing though isn't only the GUI itself,but the fact that Microsoft will introduce a closed "App Store" like Apple has for the Macs,making the future of platforms such as Steam or Origin questionable.

 

[Ryank1908]

All I've been hearing from PC gamers about Dark souls is constant whining, "Boo hoo, it's 30 fps, it's unplayable!"

Seriously, some people just need to grow up. It's not some god damned conspiracy to sabotage PC gaming, and it sounds crazy if you think it is. It's just 30 fps, console players deal with it all the time, we don't gush tears of blood when something doesn't come in 60 fps.

This pisses me off to no end, I'm an actual Dark Souls fan, and these people balling their eyes out after From Software took the time to actually MAKE a port for them, after thousands of petitions saying "We want the game! We'll play it! WE PROMISE!" has the potential to ruin From Software's reputation and finances for the rest of us.

I seriously hope that, if this continues, the PC wont see another port for a Souls game again, I think all the crying has proven they just plain don't deserve it.

So whenever a game comes out that quite frankly stinks of lazy development and has flaws all over the shop, we should just be thankful that they made it? That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. If Dark Souls came out with issues like this on the console, it wouldn't have fucking sold.

 

[yuval152]

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My point is that gamers will use what game companies support, be it windows or linux we don't have a choice, no matter how superior linux is, windows will lead because companies will support it and by now we all know that microsoft gives "dirty money" to certain people.

I won't lie if linux will have the same game compabilities as windows and microsoft will continue their bullshit, I will attempt to change to linux(It's only for computer pros so I might not know how to make it work) but that's only if they will supports the same games.

And about windows not supporting steam, It will never happen because steam is a software as much as your antivirus is and can be used on any future windows, but if steam will be somehow banned then it is bullshit.

But for now we can't know anything we have to wait for the future to tell us.

 

[Krantos]

Well Microsoft has enough cash to pay for dirty deals.

Why yes they do.

Wait. Are you talking about exclusivity rights and DLC release date argeements?

..um... not to shatter your fragile world-view, but those aren't dirty deals. Those are 100% legit. You might not like them (I certainly don't), but you can't really suggest they're illegal or morally wrong. They're just business agreements.

MS will pay company X to release on their console first/only. MS pays them a nice amount. That's a transaction. It's to compensate for any potential sales the agreement might lose them. If it were in some way illegal, they wouldn't speak about it as freely as they do.

As for morally? Well, while I don't like exclusivity, it's purely out of not being able to play certain games. I would hardly call that a moral wrong. You'd have to have a pretty sensitive moral code to be offended by not being able to play games.

 

[Yopaz]

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That dosen't mean steam is switching to linux, they are making it multiplayform and they won't switch for a simple reason: huge loss of money, windows is the "shit" right now. and there's no chance EVER that the entire steam libary will be compatible with linux that will mean all of the develepoers from all of the companies reworking on their games.

And linux only supports L4D2, so let's all go to linux to gain 10 extra frames *skips*,I highly doubt that companies like EA and 2K or other companies will switch to linux.

So like I said before:

So the fact that Gabe Newell doesn't want to continue working with Windows doesn't mean anything? The fact that he doesn't want to support it doesn't mean anything?

The reason they don't want to work on the Windows 8 platform is in part because in one of the versions of Windows 8 the Windows store will be the only way to install games or other kinds of software and they will take 30% of the price. So you're right, this is about money. Gabe Newell doesn't want Microsoft taking 30% from their sales.

So you have it. Valve have confirmed better performance, Valve says they are working on getting Linux compatibility on their entire game library of 2500 games, Gabe Newell saying Windows 8 will be a disaster, Gabe Newell says he wants to move to Linux and Gabe Newell having to give up a good share of their profit to Microsoft. I'm not saying this is a confirmation that it will happen, I'm just saying it's not really as unrealistic as you make it out to be.

Also I think you need to work on your math. Left 4 Dead was running at 270 fps in Windows and 315 in Linux, that's a difference 45 not 10. That means there's the difference in performance comes to 14%, which can shift the balance for those who just barely meet the recommended specs.

 

[malestrithe]

What controversy?

It is a bunch of whiny people complaining about all aspects of this thing. They complained about it not being on PC. Then they complained about it not being on the proper platform. Then they complain about frame rate issues. Now they are complaining that From Software did not think of implementing this "fix." Give me a break gamers.

Also spare me rebuttals. This is not the first time I've responded this way. So far, you have not convinced me that I'm wrong. All that your whining at did was reaffirm my position.

 

[yuval152]

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Gabe also called the PS3 a distar, and now he's multiplatforming with it, we can't hold him accountable for those words.(we can but you know what I mean)

and:


1)where does it say that valve is working on making the entire game libary compatible?

2)I was being sarcastic about the whole frames thing.

And here's the biggest thing:

Windows currently owns 92.23% of the desktop PC market, and linux is only 1.05%, valve will not migrate to linux, they might make it multiplatform but it will never be their main platform and you can't know maybe windows will drop the 30% from sales, thing is we can't have the answers now, right now neither of us can be proven wrong/right because we are talking about the future.

 

[Yopaz]

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Gabe also called the PS3 a distar, and now he's multiplatforming with it, we can't hold him accountable for those words.(we can but you know what I mean)

and:


1)where does it say that valve is working on making the entire game libary compatible?

2)I was being sarcastic about the whole frames thing.

And here's the biggest thing:

Windows currently owns 92.23% of the desktop PC market, and linux is only 1.05%, valve will not migrate to linux, they might make it multiplatform but it will never be their main platform and you can't know maybe windows will drop the 30% from sales, thing is we can't have the answers now, right now neither of us can be proven wrong/right because we are talking about the future.

And as he mentioned in one of the articles I posted (I am guessing you didn't even glance at either) was that the reason for this is that there's not enough support for games there. The gamers will follow the games. That's why people buy consoles, I think that can make people change to a free OS.

The reason he said the PS3 was a disaster was that it was very restrictive and wouldn't let them work with the degree of freedom they get on the PC platform, just compare the console version of Team Fortress 2 to the PC version if you don't believe me. However Sony and Valve worked things out and became a little less restrictive while the Xbox 360 became more restrictive. He has more recently said that MicroSoft need to lower their restrictions and make things more open.


Now you have made one point about money and that most people use Windows. However there aren't that many using Windows 8, and the number probably wont grow very quickly. They wont lose much by not working with Windows 8. If they also announce that all newer games from Valve will be functional with Linux then there are a lot who are willing to change because of that.

You have mentioned one reason why this is laughably unrealistic using money. I have mentioned money, politics and performance. I can see how you think it wont happen, but do you honestly think it's laughably unrealistic?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Also spare me rebuttals. This is not the first time I've responded this way. So far, you have not convinced me that I'm wrong. All that your whining at did was reaffirm my position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Shocking, really.

The thing is, it's not a bad port! It's at worst Average. I can understand something being "bad" because it's glitchy. I can understand something being "bad" because the controls don't work. I can even understand something being "bad" because it plays too much like it was meant for consoles, yet this isn't bad at all, it's the exact same game for all systems!

This isn't complaining about something bad, it's just entitlement at it's very core. 30 fps isn't slow at all, it's average.

I seriously pray From Software learns from their mistakes and just tries to avoid the PC market like the plague. The last thing that company needs is to earn a bad reputation and have their series ruined by some people too entitled to accept any meal that doesn't come with a silver spoon for them to eat it with.

Are you fucking kidding me? This has got to be one of the most comical posts to grace these forums yet. This is not charity, you know. They identified a market, and attempted to capitalize on that market with a rushed, sloppy port. And you're right...it's not a bad port. It's a fucking atrocious port. How about the next time something gets ported to your console, it gets ported at Wii resolutions, with Wii textures. That'd be alright, right? It'd be entitled to want anything better. And you need to play with a Wii controller too, they can't be fussed to adapt it to the X-Box or PS3 control scheme. And it'll use the most godawful DRM imaginable, or whatever the console equivalent of DRM is these days. And they'll only ask you for a little bit of a higher cost than the Wii version too, for all the special perks you're getting. Say thank you! Say thank you for the amazing port!

You're like a restaurant owner that calls a customer entitled because he found a cockroach in his soup. You guys need to let that fucking word go. I know it's SUPER EXCITING and you got that word a day thrill up in your pants the first time you saw it, and thought "Holy shit, I am going to use that in every single argument from now until the day I die, because it sounds authoritative and compelling, even though I'm not fully cognizant of what it means or what the implications are", but it's making you sound daft. Find a new word.

I really hope they avoid the PC market like a plague too, btw. They're too fucking incompetent to develop for it, apparently.

 

[yuval152]

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Gabe also called the PS3 a distar, and now he's multiplatforming with it, we can't hold him accountable for those words.(we can but you know what I mean)

and:


1)where does it say that valve is working on making the entire game libary compatible?

2)I was being sarcastic about the whole frames thing.

And here's the biggest thing:

Windows currently owns 92.23% of the desktop PC market, and linux is only 1.05%, valve will not migrate to linux, they might make it multiplatform but it will never be their main platform and you can't know maybe windows will drop the 30% from sales, thing is we can't have the answers now, right now neither of us can be proven wrong/right because we are talking about the future.

And as he mentioned in one of the articles I posted (I am guessing you didn't even glance at either) was that the reason for this is that there's not enough support for games there. The gamers will follow the games. That's why people buy consoles, I think that can make people change to a free OS.

The reason he said the PS3 was a disaster was that it was very restrictive and wouldn't let them work with the degree of freedom they get on the PC platform, just compare the console version of Team Fortress 2 to the PC version if you don't believe me. However Sony and Valve worked things out and became a little less restrictive while the Xbox 360 became more restrictive. He has more recently said that MicroSoft need to lower their restrictions and make things more open.


Now you have made one point about money and that most people use Windows. However there aren't that many using Windows 8, and the number probably wont grow very quickly. They wont lose much by not working with Windows 8. If they also announce that all newer games from Valve will be functional with Linux then there are a lot who are willing to change because of that.

You have mentioned one reason why this is laughably unrealistic using money. I have mentioned money, politics and performance. I can see how you think it wont happen, but do you honestly think it's laughably unrealistic?

Yes, if they make steam linux & mac exclusive they lose me as a customer, no way that I will have a linux partition just for steam.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, if they make steam linux & mac exclusive they lose me as a customer, no way I will have a linux partition just for steam.

The Steam/Linux business is just speculation. A lot of it has to do with the fact Windows 8 looks like its being designed with tablets as its primary focus and its own proprietary store, and fear that Microsoft is going to look to make Windows a closed platform.

 

[Ralen-Sharr]

I bought Dark Souls on Steam, and I have to say that the M&Kb controls are not very good. All the tips give you the instructions for a console controller, so you have to try to fumble through the keymap or just hit buttons to try to figure out WTF it is they want you to do.

After playing a bit and getting semi used to the controls, my biggest problem now is that when turning the camera with the mouse instead of smoothly moving it's like it jumps to preset positions, giving it a very jerky look. I knocked down my mouse to 200 DPI and it makes it a little more tolerable, but it's still annoying.

I've read that the game is great if you have a console style controller however. Unfortunate that they couldn't get the mouse working right.

Oh yeah, and some of the keybinds had me opening the steam overlay in the middle of a fight. That never ended well.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Here is a new unique and unexplainable thing: The PC version of the game is only playable for countries where Microsoft supports XBOX LIVE thanks to the GFWL integration.

Simple answer is, a GFWL version of a game is very close to an xbox360 version of a game.
It makes porting easy, that's all.

But, at the end of the day, it's still a dumb choice. GFWL doesn't work properly even in countries that have it.
It's an old complaint though. People were headdesking way back when they had said "it's going to be on GFWL because we don't know how else to deliver it in a timely manner."

 

[Westaway]

I've said it once, I'll say it again.
I'm just afraid this flop with leave From without enough time and money for the next Souls game.

Oh don't worry about. Prepare to Die will hurt Namco's wallet, not From's. The sales of the PC will affect the chances of Souls 3 being on the PC. The first two were big enough hits on consoles that there's not much to be worried about.

Thy have already said that working on this port has delayed, or atleast kept some workers from starting to develope the new game. I'm worried this will affect the final product.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

That is a fantastic quote and made me laugh...keep up the good work!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You quoted the wrong person, so I feel the need to respond to this.

No, it's entitled to promise developers you'd be interested in their game, only to cry like a child that it doesn't "meet your standards" because they didn't bend over backwards to add in features you just "like". I'm afraid your example is wrong, I'm like a restaurant owner who calls their customer entitled because they referred to my food as completely "awful" since it didn't have their favorite spice in it despite not even asking for it in the first place.

So my response to you, friend, is that you need to seriously grow the hell up. Stop bitching about a game that's genuinely good because "Boo hoo, I have a PC, I deserve everything handed to me to be perfect." This was a console game that PC gamers asked for, pleaded for, signed petitions for, there's a difference between them seeing a new market and accidently making a bad port, and PC gamers absolutely pleading for the game, then acting like snot nosed children when they finally get it.

They just need to grow up.

You're right, I did quote the wrong person. Sorry maelstrithe, I usually don't derp up quotes like that.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to this. Quite typically, you're lashing out with name calling and ad hominem attacks and scrambling to occupy a moral high ground from which you can fling shit because you don't have a cogent argument. I guess it would be annoying if it wasn't so predictable, but it's really just exhausting. Generally speaking I find the people who are quickest to invoke "maturity" are the last to demonstrate it, and this particular circumstance appears to be no exception. You might want to hold off on your stone throwing. I'm not sure your glass house is up to the challenge.

Again, I invite you to explain whether or not you would satisfied to pay extra money for an XBox game that had Wii graphics, was adapted to a Wii control scheme, and cost more money than the Wii version. You completely hand waved this analogy, which leads me to believe you A) don't understand it, or B) find it inconveniently disrupts your insult parade.

 

[Ildanach]

This is just my two cents on this issue.

FROM Software had no intention on developing for PC, had no experience with PC and quite frankly the only reason PC is getting a port is because FROM Software are genuinely good guys.
They listened to the PC market.
Stuck up to their publisher for PC players so they could get this game on their platform of choice.
Even when they got the go ahead, they were underfunded, given a ludicrously short time frame and they even were 100% transparent about the state of the port.
What more can you ask for fairly in this situation?

The way they designed the game is 100% based on consoles. Because they had no intention of porting it to PC ever.
This doesn't mean its a bad game that doesn't deserve to be on PC. Its just a different style of making a game.
And it will have some issues because of this.

To the comments about the modder, he is probably a enthusiast that has likely been modding on PC for years. He likely has more experience with PC coding and exploits than the devs.
Just because he is not getting paid for programming doesn't mean that he is not better than someone that has almost no experience on a specific platform. Even if the other guy is a professional.

Lastly a question. What is the bare minimum a developer has to do to make a port that its users are, (for lack of a better term) entitled to? This question will have many different answers depending on the person. Here is my answer to my own question.

I believe that a developer only has to make the port of the game the same as it was in on the console to PC or PC to console.
For example textures resolutions and framerate, don't matter.
Sure extra options and resolutions/textures/framerate increases would be nice, just they aren't necessary.
Something that would be necessary would be controls that are playable with the platforms existing method of control or with a peripheral that that platform has access to.
For example the ability to play with a gamepad on PC, Dark Souls or like CS:GO the ability to play with a keyboard or mouse on Ps3.
Another necessary feature is hardware optimization. For example the optimization needed to run that game on that platform.
This is the things I believe they are obligated to do.
They can go above and beyond if they want to, see Sleeping Dogs (Console to PC) or CS:GO (PC to Console)

And you of course have your right to not buy a straight port if it doesn't appeal to you but insulting a fair developer just because its not had a extensive upgrade over one version of the game, seems petulant to me.
And speaks of a mindset that doesn't care for the design principles the developers put into the game in the first place.
And if this is the case because I may be horribly wrong, why bother with the game?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And you of course have your right to not buy a straight port if it doesn't appeal to you but insulting a fair developer just because its not had a extensive upgrade over one version of the game, seems petulant to me.

And speaks of a mindset that doesn't care for the design principles the developers put into the game in the first place.

And if this is the case because I may be horribly wrong, why bother with the game?

A developer is free to do a half-assed job of any product, for any reason.

Customers are free to buy or not buy said product based on their perception of its quality.

Customers are also free to draw what conclusions they will about the motives and/or competence of the developers.

All of that is fair game. If you want a reputation for doing a good job, do a good job. It's really that simple. If I'm baking a cake, and I warn you ahead of time it's likely going to be shit, and it turns out shit, I don't then merit a reputation as a baker of excellent cakes just because I'm a good dude and I gave you a heads up. Most particularly if I then try to charge you extra for my cake.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

I'm pretty mad at them for this port. I was so excited when I heard Dark Souls would be coming to PC because I wanted it so badly, I almost got a PS3 just for that freakin game.

But the lower resolution, 30fps, not to mention GFWL!!! Yeah, I'm giving this a skip. Something I'm not too happy about but why should I pay full price for something clearly not designed for me as a pc user.

 

[Something Amyss]

So there was a big conspiracy to keep the PC players of the game from accessing higher resolutions.. and yet the "fix" to this devislih developer crafted plot was left sitting in an easily edited .ini file? Seems plausible to me.

And this is just one reason this thread makes me sad.