The Downfall of Japanese Games?

[StickManRampage]

Quick question, wut happened to the final fantasy series? i have an old nes that works and i have final fantasy 1, its a straight up mideval themed game, theres wizards and fighters and shit like that, now its a buncha transvestites runnin around with sword bigger than the fuckin sears tower

 

[geldonyetich]

4) Japan isn't the mecha of video games anymore. It was for a brief time, but now the closest place to a mecha for video games is back in the USA. Even then, we are seeing tons of countries all over the world step up their video game production, particularly in Western Europe.

The word you're looking for is "mecca [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mecca]." (Mecha refers to giant robots )

I'm not so quick to give up Japan as relinquishing its title as the mecca of video games because so much more of their culture is mired in it. You go to some blocks in Japan and every other street corner is a video arcade, or so I've heard. Here in the U.S., not so much.

Another good candidate would be South Korea. That place is so wired that video games are like a national sport, or perhaps religion [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hG67zeqcU]. Your average Eastern MMORPG will have millions of South Korean subscribers, where in the U.S. we get excited if a MMORPG pulls over 500k. World of Warcraft was a really surprising exception and it's currently sitting at about 12 million world wide.. Ragnarok Online, something like 15-25 million?

 

[LucanDesmond]

This is kind of a pointless thread...

This is exactly the same thing as when people say "PC Gaming is dead." -- So long as there is a Japan, Japanese games aren't going anywhere.

The thing you fail to realize is-- Japanese games are meant for Japanese people. They're released globally because they can make money off the niche gamers for what is essentially a ten cent patch [Translation] to a game they've already made a shitload on in their native country. Just because you particularly don't like it, and prefer western developed RPGs [Which is natural considering you're from a western country], doesn't mean they're 'going away' or 'sucking more'. You've just changed your particular tastes.

Personally, I still love JRPGs and japanese-originating games, and I'll probably continue to like them more than most western games I play, because I like games with great storyline -- Not OK story and good gameplay, or great gameplay and a matching story, I like great story period. And when you compare a culture with a story telling society centuries old to an industrial instant gratification culture, story-wise the former will always win.

And in all honesty, if you can't appreciate a JRPG's story because it's 'Unrealistic' and then go play Gears of War and mow down mutated insects from the bowels of the earth for a half hour, then you sir are a hypocritical prick. It's not that you don't like the 'unrealistic' story, it's that you don't like the fantasy setting.

You seem a little hostile. Thats ok. I'll try to explain a little better why I'm disappointed with JRPGs and other Japanese games in recent times.

First, I LOVE a good story. It's why I started playing RPGs in the first place. And while the Japanese are great at TELLING stories, that doesn't mean that they're good at making up new ones. The people at Square have used up many of their best stories and the well is running dry. In their most recent attempts to make their stories "deep" or whatever, they just make them confusing or stupid. In some cases they even make them inconsistent. IF I recall correctly, FF8 had a BIG plot hole. Something about Irvine not using the Guardian Force so he should have remembered everything from the orphanage and the group's childhoods. To be honest its been like 9 years since I played it so that could be completely wrong.

I have no problem with the story being unrealistic either. I love fantasy settings of any kind. LotR, Harry Potter, Star Trek, Star Wars.... and many more. I'm a D&D player! I've created my own fantasy settings! I'm not about instant gratification either. I think the story of games like Gears of War and Halo are very shallow. On the other hand, a story needs to be engaging from the beginning. I'm a writer in my spare time and I'll tell you one of the first lessons I learned is that if you can't draw the reader in with the first chapter, you've failed as a writer. I don't know what qualifies as "the first chapter" in a video game, but I got about 6 hours into FF12 and I just couldn't stay interested.

Square seems to be under the impression that the level of complication is equal to the level of quality the game is. This is best shown in the recent release Dissidia. Just check out the review over at Kotaku here:
http://kotaku.com/5119519/dissidia-final-fantasy-import-review-the-%5Bevil%5D-emperors-new-%5Bsuit-of-armor%5D
I haven't played it yet, but if its HALF as complicated as that reviewer says, than I'm not interested anyway. Square needs to just make something simple, yet great. A good example of great simplicity is Portal. Almost no characters, your only option are move, jump, IN portal and OUT portal, and a very simple objective: escape. That's all Valve needed to make a great game.

My gaming preferences may have changed over the years, but I wouldn't hesitate to run back to Final Fantasy and all the rest if they could just make a decent game.

Two words: Team Ico.

Ah yes. I didn't really like their games, but they certainly were original and compelling. They creating a very interesting IP.

 

[Rajin Cajun]

The last good Japanese game I played was Gundam: Zeonic Front on the PS2 everything since that especially Gundam has sucked balls.

 

[Mizaki]

Is this thread about Japanese games or Final Fantasy?

 

[z121231211]

Another good candidate would be South Korea. That place is so wired that video games are like a national sport, or perhaps religion [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hG67zeqcU]. Your average Eastern MMORPG will have millions of South Korean subscribers, where in the U.S. we get excited if a MMORPG pulls over 500k. World of Warcraft was a really surprising exception and it's currently sitting at about 12 million world wide.. Ragnarok Online, something like 15-25 million?

Any other games other MMORPGs that are popular over there or notable games that they've made? I'm just asking, I've never heard of any games that were made by South Korea.

Only very popular Japanese games get ported over to America. I'm pretty sure many great games made over there never get ported to America (and many, many bad games don't get ported over, but that's good).

 

[geldonyetich]

Any other games other MMORPGs that are popular over there or notable games that they've made? I'm just asking, I've never heard of any games that were made by South Korea.

Tons of games. Chances are you've heard of quite a few of them but you didn't realize they were made in South Korea: Lineage (and 2), Maple Story, Gunbound, Ace Online (formerly Space Cowboys), Cabal Online, ect.

Considering how many people go online over there, they've got hundreds of MMORPGs, many of which you'll see over on Fileplanet's Free MMORPG list [http://www.fileplanet.com/promotions/mmoclub/].

It's similar to Japanese games in that only the very popular ones tend to get ported over to America.

 

[Flying-Emu]

Look at what happened to Tomonobu Itagaki and Team Ninja. Money makes artistic and programming ability irrelevant.

This.
@topic

I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, and I wouldn't disagree. I think the reason we're seeing this "downfall" is because the big Japanese developers (as in the ones with enough moolah to export games to US shores) keep beating their respective dead horses. They make money off of it; if that's what they want to do, let them.

However, the smaller developers in Japan don't seem to get that much attention. Either that, or they get gobbled up and assimilated into the Overmind of one of the larger ones. It's the curse of commerce; creativity < money.

The developer comment above also goes for the people that come up with innovations for the game. The word escapes me. But you know what I mean. The job that Miyamoto used to have.

 

[z121231211]

Any other games other MMORPGs that are popular over there or notable games that they've made? I'm just asking, I've never heard of any games that were made by South Korea.

Tons of games. Chances are you've heard of quite a few of them but you didn't realize they were made in South Korea: Lineage (and 2), Maple Story, Gunbound, Ace Online (formerly Space Cowboys), Cabal Online, ect.

Considering how many people go online over there, they've got hundreds of MMORPGs, many of which you'll see over on Fileplanet's Free MMORPG list [http://www.fileplanet.com/promotions/mmoclub/].

It's similar to Japanese games in that only the very popular ones tend to get ported over to America.

I'm sorry, I just relized the mistake I made in my question, I meant to say "any other games *other than* MMORPGs" (as in, games that are not MMORPGs) that they've made.

 

[geldonyetich]

I'm sorry, I just realized the mistake I made in my question, I meant to say any other games other than MMORPGs (as in, games that are not MMORPGs) that they've made.

Good question. Being such a wired community that 1 in 2 people in South Korea have a broadband connection, I'm not sure they have that many offline game developers. Offline games probably seem largely obsolete to them.

They probably have a fair number of console developers. Doing a little search, I found this Gamasutra article [http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18510] that mentions a few. Kingdom Under Fire [http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/475761.asp] being one -- apparently it had quite a few sequels and expansions released too. The same company also made that mecha game "Phantom Crash" and "Nintety-Nine Nights." All X-Box/360 games.

Probably infinitely more prominent games have had some work done in South Korea. They have a lot of studios that can be outsourced to get various things done. You wouldn't know unless you see the credits.

 

[LucanDesmond]

So I have another question here, and I'm not trying to discriminate or anything, but I'm wondering if AGE plays a factor here. I'm 25 and I've noticed that many of my friends that are my age or older tend to steer further away from eastern games. I've noticed that kids around 12-18 are much more likely to be attracted to eastern games.

Obviously there are exceptions to that. Not everyone falls into those categories. I'm just wondering why that trend is present.

Is it because many Japanese games (and animes) place people of that age in the lead role? Many characters in eastern games are (or at least LOOK) about 16 years old or younger. Once again, trying to avoid FLAMES: I know NOT ALL of them do. But MANY do. Especially in Square games.

I'm just wondering.

 

[geldonyetich]

So I have another question here, and I'm not trying to discriminate or anything, but I'm wondering if AGE plays a factor here.

An overgeneralized factor to solve a question born from an overgeneralization? Why not?

Is it because many Japanese games (and animes) place people of that age in the lead role? Many characters in eastern games are (or at least LOOK) about 16 years old or younger.

Honestly, whether you can deal with elfin male protagonists is going to be a question of personal taste, I don't think age has that much to do with it. I'm not drooling over them like a depraved pedophile, but I'm not majorly against them either. It's just a stylistic choice on behalf of the developers, nothing more. Personally, I'm there to play the game, not oogle the character design.

 

[LucanDesmond]

So I have another question here, and I'm not trying to discriminate or anything, but I'm wondering if AGE plays a factor here.

An overgeneralized factor to solve a question born from an overgeneralization? Why not?

Is it because many Japanese games (and animes) place people of that age in the lead role? Many characters in eastern games are (or at least LOOK) about 16 years old or younger.

Honestly, whether you can deal with elfin male protagonists is going to be a question of personal taste, I don't think age has that much to do with it. I'm not drooling over them like a depraved pedophile, but I'm not majorly against them either. It's just a stylistic choice on behalf of the developers, nothing more. Personally, I'm there to play the game, not oogle the character design.

Ok sorry, I phrased that wrong. I don't have a problem with the aesthetic of younger protagonists. I'm talking about how they act. I was referring to games that have protagonists dealing with not only raging monsters, but also raging HORMONES. They're overemotional and clearly in need to a little growing up.

 

[geldonyetich]

Ok sorry, I phrased that wrong. I don't have a problem with the aesthetic of younger protagonists. I'm talking about how they act. I was referring to games that have protagonists dealing with not only raging monsters, but also raging HORMONES. They're overemotional and clearly in need to a little growing up.

Isn't this also just a matter of stylistic difference of choice? The thing is, an absolutely perfect protagonist tends to be boring, so a developer will typically give them some kind of flaw. Superman had his Kryptonite. Kratos was cursed. And your average recent Final Fantasy protagonist is lacking in wisdom. Overcoming their weaknesses becomes the problem for which the resolution grants release in the story.

 

[LucanDesmond]

Ok sorry, I phrased that wrong. I don't have a problem with the aesthetic of younger protagonists. I'm talking about how they act. I was referring to games that have protagonists dealing with not only raging monsters, but also raging HORMONES. They're overemotional and clearly in need to a little growing up.

Isn't this also just a matter of stylistic difference of choice? The thing is, an absolutely perfect protagonist tends to be boring, so a developer will typically give them some kind of flaw. Superman had his Kryptonite. Kratos was cursed. And your average recent Final Fantasy protagonist is lacking in wisdom. Overcoming their weaknesses becomes the problem for which the resolution grants release in the story.

Many of them don't overcome this flaw however. Cloud was still a whiny emo kid, even after Advent Children. Same with Squall. And Tidus. I'm trying to think of other examples that aren't from FF games right now, but I'm really tired. This example is from an anime, not a game, but it's still a good example of Japanese writers idea of character development: Inuyasha. In the anime, Inuyasha and Kagome spend 168 episodes together and neither of them can buck up and say "I love you" to the other. In the manga it apparently does happen, but WAY later.

The character never develop, they don't grow. They gain levels and get stronger, but storyline wise, they're just as emotionally stunted at the end of the game as they are at the beginning.

Many of the stories have plot twists placed in for shock value, a twist just for the sake of a twist. A good plot twist should help the character evolve and grow in some way.

 

[geldonyetich]

Many of them don't overcome this flaw however. Cloud was still a whiny emo kid, even after Advent Children.

Spoiler

Having seen Advent Children, I'm not so sure. He and his friends are pretty much portrayed as self-actualized unstoppable juggernauts. During the events of FF7, Cloud's revealed to pretty much have a major identity crisis (turns out he's a real screwed up piece of work) which needs to be resolved before he could even start to face Sephiroth.

Same with Squall.

Spoiler

Squall's issue is that he's being forced into the role of leadership. In coping with all the various trials through the game (and unexpectedly from the inexplicable Leguna crossover) he pulls that off. (Not that I really want to defend FF8's plot much - it was clearly the black sheep of the series, I never bothered to finish it.)

And Tidus.

Spoiler

Tidus' begins the game having difficulties dealing with the inexplicable way his father abandoned him and his mom. He ends the game not only with an understanding that his father left him because he had no choice, but choosing to follow in his fathers' footsteps to sacrifice himself in sparing Yuna from a fate worse than death.

Maybe your real complaint here is that writers of these Final Fantasy games are being overly vague in its exposition. That, too, I would argue is a stylistic concern. They didn't want to be overtly clubbing you over the head with these moral concepts, and I wager something may have been lost in the translation as well.

Just because they're making it difficult to read between the lines is pretty poor grounds to say Japan should pack it up to go home.

I'm trying to think of other examples that aren't from FF games right now, but I'm really tired. This example is from an anime, not a game, but it's still a good example of Japanese writers idea of character development: Inuyasha. In the anime, Inuyasha and Kagome spend 168 episodes together and neither of them can buck up and say "I love you" to the other. In the manga it apparently does happen, but WAY later.

That's what you call milking the franchise. We're just as guilty of it over here in the states they are over there.

Inuyasha and Kagome throwing that whole, "we're from other worlds and you're a half-demon" aspect away (not to mention the "a faux resurrected ex-lover for whom you may still have feelings for" aspect out) is basically gutting the franchise. They wouldn't do that until they're pretty much done with the series.

To take some American examples, the X-Files isn't about to expose whether or not there actually was UFOs to be found or whether it was a conspiracy until they're off the air. 5th season of Lost coming soon, and the castaways still have no idea what they're dealing with. 8 seasons in Smallville, Clark is still a pretty lousy Superman. Darren isn't going to deal with Samantha being a witch. Lucy's not going to stop being a screw-up.

Basically, it's pretty common procedure on both sides of the pond to have some kind of hook and keep it. Not many developers are willing to kill the hook by allowing it to resolve. Some do, and that's nice of them, but for the most part they prefer the cash cow keeps on churning.

 

[TerraMGP]

And House will still be a pathetic emotionally stunted three year old solving medical mysteries with no basis in fact just in the nick of time.

I would argue that While the characters you mentioned did develop somewhat their personalities to start with were less interesting than Terra or Celes or Zidane or Garnet or Kain ext ext. Still your right that they will milk the franchise as much as any other company. Hell how many WW2 games deviate from the 'go in and kick some nazi ass all by yourself because that was the last time the US was totally and unquestionably in the right' thing?

I also feel responsible to point out though that the number of genuinely unique concepts is shockingly finite and between the booms of gaming we have gone though and the increased cost for producing a game the companies will want to stick with what they know will sell. This also means the number of japanese games hitting our shore is smaller every year because lets face it, the cost to produce the game then load it on a ship and stock it in stores somewhere else just does not offset the cost of having twenty graphics artists spending two thirds of the budget making and animating the models.

 

[Joeshie]

I'm not so quick to give up Japan as relinquishing its title as the mecca of video games because so much more of their culture is mired in it. You go to some blocks in Japan and every other street corner is a video arcade, or so I've heard. Here in the U.S., not so much.

Another good candidate would be South Korea. That place is so wired that video games are like a national sport, or perhaps religion [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hG67zeqcU]. Your average Eastern MMORPG will have millions of South Korean subscribers, where in the U.S. we get excited if a MMORPG pulls over 500k. World of Warcraft was a really surprising exception and it's currently sitting at about 12 million world wide.. Ragnarok Online, something like 15-25 million?

Japan's obsession with arcades is negated by their complete and utter disregard with online play. Meanwhile, South Korea is too focused on certain games and genres to be anywhere considered a mecca for video games. Mecca for MMOs? Sure. Mecca for video games? Certainly not. South Korea is going to have to get away from the whole "GOOD GAMEPLAY = THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF BORING GRINDING" mentality if they want to be taken seriously with video game development.

USA is the mecca once again due to the high quality gameplay and technology that is produced over here for video games. Not to mention, Japan doesn't have anything on the USA or Europe when it comes to indie development.

 

[geldonyetich]

South Korea is going to have to get away from the whole "GOOD GAMEPLAY = THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF BORING GRINDING" mentality if they want to be taken seriously with video game development.

I thought that way before myself, but in retrospect, it's cultural relativism. Eastern games tend to survive despite having grinds and depth, and I suspect it's because of a greater communal focus in their society. That's why games like Lineage could pull over 5 million subscribers.

On the flip side, when we send most Western games over there, with a more individual focus, they tend to fare rather poorly. So it's not that our games are inherently better, it's just a different taste in culture.