The Elder Scrolls Future

[Fappy]

snip

Furthermore at the end of the civil war Tullius, Ulfirc, and The Doavhkiin took the first steps into becoming Talos, the nature of the events as they happened in skyrim will most likely lead to a Dragonbreak were both ends to the civil war happened.

Lorkhan that is Akatosh, the son(s) of Sithis who is Anuiel, who are themselves the soul(s) of Anu and Padomey incarnate, who hides himself under the mask of Talos, used his avatars, Ulfirc, Tullius, and the doavhkiin, to replace himself the pantheon of gods, since his old form was failing.

The thing is they never actually show you any of the crazy background lore and usually don't really touch on events of prior games as to not confuse people. All this stuff may be implied but I doubt it will really be a part of any content we actually witness in any future titles. I think it is actually more interesting to consider how they may hint at the true nature of Skyrim's events in future titles.

A dragonbreak will certainly happen and I hadn't really considered that the Dominion were actually successfully "killing" Talos, but I suppose the only way to kill a god in TES is to snuff out its worship all together.

I actually know very little about the Knights of the Nine lore aside from what was presented in the DLC. Where did you get that Whitestrake was from the future?

 

[Bertylicious]

awesome bollocks

The Dwemer had no such gessalt consciousnesses, they had a power dubbed "the calling" that allowed them to psychically communicate with each other, and even that is a SUPPOSED power whose only reference is in a work of fiction.

Also we know The Dwemer's plan, it was to un-make themselves from reality, to go back before Stasis and Change met, it had nothing to do with wanting to be like the gods.

Yeah, "gestalt consiousness" was a bit of a leap on my part.

This un-makeing business is news to me though. What did that have to do with the big golem? Have I misinterpreted it and the numidium was a ruse and the intent was this un-making? What was the aim of it? To achieve some sort of nirvana?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yeah, "gestalt consiousness" was a bit of a leap on my part.

This un-makeing business is news to me though. What did that have to do with the big golem? Have I misinterpreted it and the numidium was a ruse and the intent was this un-making? What was the aim of it? To achieve some sort of nirvana?

The Dwemer believed that before the mortal realm was made and the spirits were "degraded" into the mortal races that their entire race was originally one spirit that was fractured over and over again until it became the Dwemer race.

the Dwemer built Numidium as a body to combine their entire race back into the singular being they thought they were before.

However beyond retuning to their supposed original state they sought to go back before the grey-maybe, to the place before anything, before any spirit was fractured and made into lesser gradients.

they sought to basically return to the black-void of nothingness, before Anu and Padomey met, before stasis and change inter mingled and achive CHIM.


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius
this sums it up pretty well.

 

[Bertylicious]

Yeah, "gestalt consiousness" was a bit of a leap on my part.

This un-makeing business is news to me though. What did that have to do with the big golem? Have I misinterpreted it and the numidium was a ruse and the intent was this un-making? What was the aim of it? To achieve some sort of nirvana?

The Dwemer believed that before the mortal realm was made and the spirits were "degraded" into the mortal races that their entire race was originally one spirit that was fractured over and over again until it became the Dwemer race.

the Dwemer built Numidium as a body to combine their entire race back into the singular being they thought they were before.

However beyond retuning to their supposed original state they sought to go back before the grey-maybe, to the place before anything, before any spirit was fractured and made into lesser gradients.

they sought to basically return to the black-void of nothingness, before Anu and Padomey met, before stasis and change inter mingled and achive CHIM.


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius
this sums it up pretty well.

Ah, I see! Perhaps that's where I got that whole "gestalt" thing from.

Sort of blows my theory out of the water though. Ho hum. Back to the drawing board.

 

[ardias014]

Sorry Nerevar went missing under shady circumstances on an expedition to akivir, which means he probably won't show up in the series again.
Validation of everything means invalidation because the choice you made doesn't mean anything because everything happened. The only games that truly validate choice are ones that actually import things from previous games like Mass Effect 2 and to some extent 3. In the ES series you can do all sorts of crap that doesn't translate into the newer games.

Spoiler

Also Sheo mentions that Martin Septim is his favorite emporer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z48mckXg5NA&feature=related about 1:15

Disappearing after a trip to Akavir =/= dead. Furthermore the Nerevar going to Akavir was a RUMOR, just like how people thought Vivec was taken by the Daedra, when he wasn't. In reality Nerevar achieved CHIM most likely.
.
.
Actually in the ES series every single quest is assumed to be done, though not necessarily by you. Everything you do is validated because they will never tell you your wrong. You chose to support X faction in Daggerfall? you are correct. Did you ONLY do the mages guild? Did you do all the guilds? did you do this sidequest? You can never be wrong.

furthermore most things you do SHOULDN'T transfer into new games, Mass Effect handles it very poorly by treating every piss you take on the sidewalk as some giant world changing event, which is terribly unrealistic.
.
.
So what if Sheogorath like Martin? I'm sure Dagon the Razor liked Queen Potema for being evil and destructive.

Liking a specific Emperor =/= Sheogorath being the CoC.

So you saying because they make every single binary choice happen, they validate your choice. Does that mean that my choices are validated when they don't even take into account what decisions I made.

Martin didn't go insane, he didn't create chaos, he tried to save order. Why would the god of madness and chaos like some like that over the emperor he drove insane.

And for the Nerevar, even if he does show up he invalidates previous choices because he probably wont be like the character you made.

 

[SajuukKhar]

So you saying because they make every single binary choice happen, they validate your choice. Does that mean that my choices are validated when they don't even take into account what decisions I made.

Martin didn't go insane, he didn't create chaos, he tried to save order. Why would the god of madness and chaos like some like that over the emperor he drove insane.

And for the Nerevar, even if he does show up he invalidates previous choices because he probably wont be like the character you made.

Actually they DID take your choice to account becuase the end result in all choices. You help X person? they got the kingdom they would have made anyways. You gave the totem to Manimarco? he became a god also.

the resulting world has ALL choices taken into account.
.
.
Because The Es universe is one were Lokrhan(space) and Akatosh(time) are the same person. were Sithis(chaos) and Anuiel(stasis) are the same person, were Anu(stasis and Padomey(change) ARE THE SAME FORCE. Stasis and Change, space and time, chaos and sanity ARE THE SAME THING.

Furthermore Akatosh is crazy, like confirmed crazy, like so crazy he drives his avatars mad by the sheer fact they are somewhat related to him, and Martin became Akatosh.
.
.
He wont show up so it doesn't matter.

 

[ardias014]

Actually they DID take your choice to account becuase the end result in all choices. You help X person? they got the kingdom they would have made anyways. You gave the totem to Manimarco? he became a god also.

the resulting world has ALL choices taken into account.
.
.
Because The Es universe is one were Lokrhan(space) and Akatosh(time) are the same person. were Sithis(chaos) and Anuiel(stasis) are the same person, were Anu(stasis and Padomey(change) ARE THE SAME FORCE. Stasis and Change, space and time, chaos and sanity ARE THE SAME THING.

Furthermore Akatosh is crazy, like confirmed crazy, like so crazy he drives his avatars mad by the sheer fact they are somewhat related to him, and Martin became Akatosh.
.
.
He wont show up so it doesn't matter.

Okay what do you consider validation of previous choices is? Because I'm talking about how the choices that you personally made are not validated, not how all things from previous games return in the new games. For instance I could have killed everyone in Bravil and it didn't change anything. Or I could be apart of all the guilds and not be a night of the nine or Sheo.The only way they "validate" things like that is by giving hazy details that validate nothing and only leave nebulous areas.

Also:
Sheogorath said he was present for the whole sorry affair, which means Kvatch on. If he were not the champion he wouldn't have been at Martin's side.
Akatosh isn't all that crazy. The only avatar I can think of that went crazy was Pelinal ans he was a mainfestation of Shor/Lorkhan not akatosh.
Lorkhan is not Akatosh, he is tiber septim/ shor/ various other manifestations.
I maybe wrong on this one, but sithis is the void/ nothingness not chaos.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Okay what do you consider validation of previous choices is? Because I'm talking about how the choices that you personally made are not validated, not how all things from previous games return in the new games. For instance I could have killed everyone in Bravil and it didn't change anything. Or I could be apart of all the guilds and not be a night of the nine or Sheo.The only way they "validate" things like that is by giving hazy details that validate nothing and only leave nebulous areas.

Also:
Sheogorath said he was present for the whole sorry affair, which means Kvatch on. If he were not the champion he wouldn't have been at Martin's side.
Akatosh isn't all that crazy. The only avatar I can think of that went crazy was Pelinal ans he was a mainfestation of Shor/Lorkhan not akatosh.
Lorkhan is not Akatosh, he is tiber septim/ shor/ various other manifestations.
I maybe wrong on this one, but sithis is the void/ nothingness not chaos.

What I consider invalidation is what Fallout does, they give you options like "you can destroy the NCR" in Fallout 2, or cause city X and city Y to go to war, then regardless of what you picked in the sequels they say "na NCR wasn't destroyed and these two cities never went to war"

The Elder scrolls series just doesn't tell you, because most of what you do wouldn't be remembered except in the local area and even then it would be forgotten in a couple years. It is left vague so you can never be wrong, except in a very FEW number of occurrences.

Furthermore the fact that you dont hear about it doesn't make it invalidated because THAT REALISTIC, that is how it would play out.
.
.
Daedric princes can manifest themselves through various avatars or just look on from their realms. Him being "present" could simply mean he was a random mook that was in cyrdoill at the time everything went down.
.
.
Actually Lokrhan IS Akatosh, Michael Kirkbride, known as MK on forums, one of the series biggest lore writers, said so himself.
http://www.imperial-library.info/ForumArchives/AmuletAmulet.html

MK
 Jun 23 2006, 10:19 AM
Post #8


Curate


Joined: 22-March 04





QUOTE(Xanathar @ Jun 23 2006, 03:46 AM)Â

Shezzar == Akatosh ?Â


You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change.

.
.
Also Pelineal was an avatar of akatosh
http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v6
"Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon, and that this was proof that he was a myth-echo, and that where he trod were shapes of the first urging."
""O Aka, for our shared madness I do this! I watch you watching me watching back! Umaril dares call us out, for that is how we made him!" [And it was during] these fits of anger and nonsense that Pelinal would fall into the Madness"

Pelinal and Akatosh were both mad.
.
.
Also Sithis is change.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tower
"What is the rim of the Wheel?

As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed."

Sithis is the soul of Padhome, Padhome is the primal force of change. Sithis is the soul of change.

 

[ardias014]

snip

1st off: I agree with you on leaving choice open for earlier games, but that isn't validation. True validation in this circumstance would mean it literaly put your choice in the next game.

2: MK misses the gigantic plot hole of Lorkhan being dead and having his body ripped into pieces and the other thousand problems with the conflicting lore.

3: But was pelinal insane every second. No. Just because Akatosh has madness doesn't mean he is the god of chaos or insanity. Everything is at least partially mad or insane.
Also:"It is said that Pelinal emerged in to Nirn like a Padomaic, carried by Sithis and all other forces of change. Described by Morihaus as an ada or spirit, Pelinal plays the same role as a long line of avatars sent by Shor to champion the cause of mankind. Pelinal, however, is an exception, as he exhibits significant bonds to Akatosh as well, who is hostile to Shor."

4: Thanks for clearing that up Sithis always confused me because they say hes a hole in reality sometimes.

 

[Therumancer]

I see two main possibilities for the second game

1. Hammerfell: It's the only human area that the elder scrolls games hasn't focused on. I'm not saying they won't do an elder scrolls game in the homeland of another species (morrowind disproves that) but it's easier to relate with human characters. It's invasion by the thalmor and the fact it has some dwemmer ruins makes this more likely.I think your character would be a sword singer (or at least would be able to use some of their lesser abilities). Most of the knowledge is lost but I think they stored it in a unique way (I could be wrong there though). Their is also according to usep their god of "perseverance over infidels" which sometimes materialises when it's needed (aka any time now to help kill the thalmor). The desert setting would also be interesting.

2.Elsweyr: It's currently occupied by the thalmor which is a plus, they'll probably rebel sooner or later. There is also a khajit called the mane (again according to usep) that is reborn in different bodies and leads the khajit, seems quite similar to the Dragonborn and Nerevarine.

Actually Hammerfell has it's own game called "Redguard" which was a pirate themed swashbuckling action-RPG type thing they tried to do. It wasn't all that great.

The Dwarves could always return, in fantasy nothing is permanant, if their spirits are tied up in a giant golem or whatever they could always be removed from it as part of some quest (what has been done, can be undone). It's not like similar things have not been done before.

That said the Dwarves were removed from the game in favor of the current Redguard who did not previously exist (ie the Dwarves were the Redguard) in the interest of making the game a lot more politically correct and having an all-black human race in the game. A lot was said about it when the desician was made in a lot of differant directions.

Allegedly the desician happened for design reasons, they wanted to keep their current "world map" so for this "new race" they needed to replace one of the existing ones. The Dwarves got the axe so to speak because they were shorter than the other races and as tech improved the issue of perspective was an issue. Basically a dwarf running around would be like another character sneaking, and then crouching would give an even lower perspective, and that would mean that the entire game would have to be coded to look decent from that perspective.

At least that's what I've heard over the years.

I'm not sure if I'd go for a game set in Elsewhyr because a desert enviroment would have the same problems as the arctic/snowy enviroment of Skyrim except even more pronounced... with a lot of identical, fairly barren scenery. I'm not sure if I'd care for an entire game set in an enviroment like that.

If I had to make a guess I'd like to see a game set in Valenwood or the Summerset Isles.

If I was writing Elder Scrolls, I'd probably do the next game focusing on the Aldermari dominion in their own lands, with the player having to decide if they want to side with or against he Aldermari, as opposed to just out and out fighting them in another land.

If they re-visit Hammerfell, it should be at a time when they actually develop a system for using boats in the game. The current version of the culture is VERY nautical based, and really I don't think they could really capture the right vibe for something like this unless the PC at least had the option to spend a lot of time on boats sailing around (as opposed to just entering them like any other structure in search for blood and loot).

Black Marsh could be interesting, but given that it's largely populated by an aquatic species and I got the impression a lot of the Argonian settlements existed at least partially underwater.... I could see that as a pain in the arse to design, as well as probably having to find a reason for the PCs to all get water breathing fairly early on. Admittedly though it could be fun to get involved in a fight between the Argonians and a resurging Sload empire, fighting through underwater caverns and ruins for portions of the game.

 

[Voulan]

I was playing Skyrim today when I happened across a closed gateway towards the Jerall Mountains in Cyrodiil.

Sorry, I'm on the PS3 and had to take pictures with my phone:

Spoiler

You can't interact with it, and if you somehow manage to get over it there is an invisible wall and the "You cannot go this way" message. The fact that it's even there, however, seems pretty interesting.

Theoretically, this is where your character first enters Skyrim and gets caught. I think that we could probably get DLC where we can go through this gate into Cyrodiil. If they do, this means the Great War would be tied up before the next game.

 

[SajuukKhar]

1st off: I agree with you on leaving choice open for earlier games, but that isn't validation. True validation in this circumstance would mean it literaly put your choice in the next game.

2: MK misses the gigantic plot hole of Lorkhan being dead and having his body ripped into pieces and the other thousand problems with the conflicting lore.

3: But was pelinal insane every second. No. Just because Akatosh has madness doesn't mean he is the god of chaos or insanity. Everything is at least partially mad or insane.
Also:"It is said that Pelinal emerged in to Nirn like a Padomaic, carried by Sithis and all other forces of change. Described by Morihaus as an ada or spirit, Pelinal plays the same role as a long line of avatars sent by Shor to champion the cause of mankind. Pelinal, however, is an exception, as he exhibits significant bonds to Akatosh as well, who is hostile to Shor."

4: Thanks for clearing that up Sithis always confused me because they say hes a hole in reality sometimes.

1. True validation only means they told you what you did happened, which they do in the ES series. You are confusing validation of choice with follow-through of choice.
.
.
2. All the gods are dead, they all died at the creation of the mortal world.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth - "Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. "

Lorkhan only had his heart removed, his body wasn't torn up.

Also there is no conflict in the lore, both Oblivion AND Skyrim visually show that Akatosh is Lorkhan and vice-versa. I will explain it to you if you desire, but it is quite long.

Furthermore having your heart torn out means nothing abut your ability to do stuff. Just because Akatosh who is Lorkhan is dead and has had his heart removed does not prevent him from being able to appear manifest and fight Dagon and do other things.

-Look at Sithis, he has a giant gaping hole in his chest, and has his heart removed, because Sithis and Lorkhan are the same being, and he still gets around to ruling the Dark Brotherhood and taking souls. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111111090058/elderscrolls/images/3/3e/700889-sithis_super.jpg

-Zurin Arctus also had a hole blown in his chest and has his heart destroyed, by the original underking, and still managed to live for many years as the second underking
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy - "With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest."

-Pelinal whitestrake also had a hole in his chest and was missing a heart and was able to walk around killing stuff
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6 - "Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart"
.
.
3. I never said Akatosh was a god of madness, only that he was mad.

Furthermore Akatosh and Shor are not hostile at all, Shor is hostile to Arui-el, but Auri-El is different then Akatosh. In fact Shor and his wife Kyne made an alliance with Kyranith and the other Imperial gods so they would wage war against the Elven gods.

Akatosh/Auri-El/Alkosh/Tosh Raka are all the same dragon-god of time yet each are separate individuals that fight against each other.

Just because Auri-el had Lorkhan killed, and Alkosh fought against Whitestreak when whitestreak killed Khajiit, does not mean Akatosh dislikes Shor/Lorkhan/Sithis

Furthermore Akatosh and Lorkhan/Shor/sithis have teamed up several times, The Dovahkiin, Martin Septim, Tiber Septim, Whitestreak and many other people were avatars of BOTH gods.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Furthermore Akatosh and Lorkhan/Shor/sithis have teamed up several times, The Dovahkiin, Martin Septim, Tiber Septim, Whitestreak and many other people were avatars of BOTH gods.

Hey so that means Dovhakiins insane actions, like murdering the Emporer then saving the world, can be attributed to bouts of insanity due to he/she being a mad avatar like Pelinal!

So a player doing things that make no sense from a roleplaying point of view now make sense from a roleplaying point of view!!!

I remember thinking it strange that the temple considers Pelinal a saint when he would go on massive rampages.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Hey so that means Dovhakiins insane actions, like murdering the Emporer then saving the world, can be attributed to bouts of insanity due to he/she being a mad avatar like Pelinal!

So a player doing things that make no sense from a roleplaying point of view now make sense from a roleplaying point of view!!!

I remember thinking it strange that the temple considers Pelinal a saint when he would go on massive rampages.

The ES universe is a strange one.

Anu/Padomay/Anuiel/Sithis/Akatosh/Lorkhan and Talos are all the same person.

Tiber Septim, Martin Spetim, The Dovahkiin, Ysmir Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, Pelinal, and possibly all the main characters from every main game, are avatars of Lorkhan, with most of them also being avatars of Akatosh as well.

Kyranith, and Mara, specifically the Nordic Mara, have made peace pacts between their two pantheons to fight against the Mer gods.

Shor, the Nordic version of Lorkhan, once went to the underworld to talk to his Father/Son mirror-brother Lorkhan.

Tosh Raka, the Akaviri Akatosh, plans a war against his Tamriel father/son mirror-brothers Akatosh and Auri-El, while Akatosh fights Auri-el to help Talos who is Lorkhan keep the world from falling apart.

It is very confusing because all the races conflicting versions of the gods exist and can fight each-other when they are still technically the same god. The best way to describe it is all the gods suffer from multiple personality disorder, very very violent multiple personality disorder.

On top of that they are all dead, which is why this can happen in the first place.

As MK once described it.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

On the different time-dragons:

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Hey so that means Dovhakiins insane actions, like murdering the Emporer then saving the world, can be attributed to bouts of insanity due to he/she being a mad avatar like Pelinal!

So a player doing things that make no sense from a roleplaying point of view now make sense from a roleplaying point of view!!!

I remember thinking it strange that the temple considers Pelinal a saint when he would go on massive rampages.

The ES universe is a strange one.

Anu/Padomay/Anuiel/Sithis/Akatosh/Lorkhan and Talos are all the same person.

Tiber Septim, Martin Spetim, The Dovahkiin, Ysmir Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, Pelinal, and possibly all the main characters from every main game, are avatars of Lorkhan, with most of them also being avatars of Akatosh as well.

Kyranith, and Mara, specifically the Nordic Mara, have made peace pacts between their two pantheons to fight against the Mer gods.

Shor, the Nordic version of Lorkhan, once went to the underworld to talk to his Father/Son mirror-brother Lorkhan.

Tosh Raka, the Akaviri Akatosh, plans a war against his Tamriel father/son mirror-brothers Akatosh and Auri-El, while Akatosh fights Auri-el to help Talos who is Lorkhan keep the world from falling apart.

It is very confusing because all the races conflicting versions of the gods exist and can fight each-other when they are still technically the same god. The best way to describe it is all the gods suffer from multiple personality disorder, very very violent multiple personality disorder.

On top of that they are all dead, which is why this can happen in the first place.

As MK once described it.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

On the different time-dragons:

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds.

Is this just the Aedra or are the Daedra like this too?

Or is that because the Aedra are dead(in the way a god dies) but the daedra are still alive?

 

[SajuukKhar]

Is this just the Aedra or are the Daedra like this too?

Or is that because the Aedra are dead(in the way a god dies) but the daedra are still alive?

Only the Aedra are like that.

The Aedra are spirits who gave themselves to the mortal world in its creation, and subsequently died. They are a part of it, and can be manipulated by the thougts of the mortal beings in it.

The Daedra didn't take place in the creation of the mortal realm, they did not give up their power and life to create Mundus, which is why they are still "alive" so to speak. They are not bound as the Aedra are.

 

[ardias014]

1. True validation only means they told you what you did happened, which they do in the ES series. You are confusing validation of choice with follow-through of choice.
.
.
2. All the gods are dead, they all died at the creation of the mortal world.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth - "Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. "

Lorkhan only had his heart removed, his body wasn't torn up.

Also there is no conflict in the lore, both Oblivion AND Skyrim visually show that Akatosh is Lorkhan and vice-versa. I will explain it to you if you desire, but it is quite long.

Furthermore having your heart torn out means nothing abut your ability to do stuff. Just because Akatosh who is Lorkhan is dead and has had his heart removed does not prevent him from being able to appear manifest and fight Dagon and do other things.

-Look at Sithis, he has a giant gaping hole in his chest, and has his heart removed, because Sithis and Lorkhan are the same being, and he still gets around to ruling the Dark Brotherhood and taking souls. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111111090058/elderscrolls/images/3/3e/700889-sithis_super.jpg

-Zurin Arctus also had a hole blown in his chest and has his heart destroyed, by the original underking, and still managed to live for many years as the second underking
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Arcturian_Heresy - "With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest."

-Pelinal whitestrake also had a hole in his chest and was missing a heart and was able to walk around killing stuff
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Song_of_Pelinal,_v_6 - "Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelinal's star-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart"
.
.
3. I never said Akatosh was a god of madness, only that he was mad.

Furthermore Akatosh and Shor are not hostile at all, Shor is hostile to Arui-el, but Auri-El is different then Akatosh. In fact Shor and his wife Kyne made an alliance with Kyranith and the other Imperial gods so they would wage war against the Elven gods.

Akatosh/Auri-El/Alkosh/Tosh Raka are all the same dragon-god of time yet each are separate individuals that fight against each other.

Just because Auri-el had Lorkhan killed, and Alkosh fought against Whitestreak when whitestreak killed Khajiit, does not mean Akatosh dislikes Shor/Lorkhan/Sithis

Furthermore Akatosh and Lorkhan/Shor/sithis have teamed up several times, The Dovahkiin, Martin Septim, Tiber Septim, Whitestreak and many other people were avatars of BOTH gods.

1) Except they don't they tell you the outcome, they let you decide whatever you want think is the outcome. This allows you to shade in your events by leaving empty spaces, which in a way is self validation but not the game valiating things.
2) Monomyth is disputed in this area by other books and by Mankar in oblivion.
Also if you acknowledge that the monomyth is true, it states Lorkhan and Akatosh are seperate beings.
3) Yes, but you also implied that he was a complete and utter nutter, which can be seen as not the case from Pelinal's times of clarity. This also doesn't change the fact that Sheo wouldn't care what Akatosh did. Also if Akatosh were Lorkhan that means Lorkhan would be 2 divines.

Also to be honest most of the lore we argued about is supposed to be conflicting and not have a definitive answer to make it up to the player to decide. This also ties in with the nebulous spaces it leaves for your character's choices in the game.

Wow what was the original argument about?

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Is this just the Aedra or are the Daedra like this too?

Or is that because the Aedra are dead(in the way a god dies) but the daedra are still alive?

Only the Aedra are like that.

The Aedra are spirits who gave themselves to the mortal world in its creation, and subsequently died. They are a part of it, and can be manipulated by the thougts of the mortal beings in it.

The Daedra didn't take place in the creation of the mortal realm, they did not give up their power and life to create Mundus, which is why they are still "alive" so to speak. They are not bound as the Aedra are.

So does that make Aetherius, where the Aedra supposedly live, a lie?

 

[SajuukKhar]

1) Except they don't they tell you the outcome, they let you decide whatever you want think is the outcome. This allows you to shade in your events by leaving empty spaces, which in a way is self validation but not the game valiating things.
2) Monomyth is disputed in this area by other books and by Mankar in oblivion.
Also if you acknowledge that the monomyth is true, it states Lorkhan and Akatosh are seperate beings.
3) Yes, but you also implied that he was a complete and utter nutter, which can be seen as not the case from Pelinal's times of clarity. This also doesn't change the fact that Sheo wouldn't care what Akatosh did. Also if Akatosh were Lorkhan that means Lorkhan would be 2 divines.

Also to be honest most of the lore we argued about is supposed to be conflicting and not have a definitive answer to make it up to the player to decide. This also ties in with the nebulous spaces it leaves for your character's choices in the game.

Wow what was the original argument about?

1. The game validates your options by being designed to hav the world play out to were you are always right.

2. You are missing the point of Akatosh and Lokrhan's duality.

Akatosh and Lorkhan are the gods of time and space, time and space, much like in our own universe ARE THE SAME THING. We see them as two separate things because of the limited perspective we have.

The difference between time and space is the same as the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, moral and immoral, justice and injustice, Stasis and Chaos, it is an arbitrary line we draw in existence and action. It is a split that exists solely in imagination causing a creation of two things that are still really one thing.

The ES universe is affected by belief, that people see space and time as different things makes them appear as different things, however they are still truly one.

Akatosh being Lorkhan and Lorkhan being Akatosh does not make either two people, it makes them one thing, the god of existence, split by the limits of the mortal mind.

3. Pelinal was sane when the Lorkhanic parts of him took over.

Furthermore Sheogorath is part of Lokrhan's creativity cast from him when he died. Sheogorath caring about Akatosh/Lorkhan is in a way caring about himself.

4. Actually according to the Devs all conflicting lore happened simultaneously, there isn't anything vague or wrong all of it is true. To say that the ES lore is conflicting is to miss the entire point of the ES universe itself, which is to say belief affects and alters reality.

It is how each races versions of the gods can exist, have different motives and actions across time, and still be the same being. Akatosh, Tosh Raka, Auri-El are all the same being, yet the constantly fight each other and have different viewpoints.

Just as Lorkhan/Shor/Sep are all the same being yet each of them died differently.

Shor son of Shor, Aka son of Aka. Each are their own fathers and each are their own sons, neither was first, neither was second, each created eachother.

 

[ardias014]

1. The game validates your options by being designed to hav the world play out to were you are always right.

2. You are missing the point of Akatosh and Lokrhan's duality.

Akatosh and Lorkhan are the gods of time and space, time and space, much like in our own universe ARE THE SAME THING. We see them as two separate things because of the limited perspective we have.

The difference between time and space is the same as the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, moral and immoral, justice and injustice, it is an arbitrary line we draw in existence and action. It is a split that exists solely in imagination.

The ES universe is affected by belief, that people see space and time as different things makes them appear as different things, however they are still truly one.

Akatosh being Lorkhan and Lorkhan being Akatosh does not make either two people, it makes them one the god of existence, split by the limits of the mortal mind.

3. Pelinal was sane when the Lorkhanic parts of him took over.

Furthermore Sheogorath is part of Lokrhan's creativity cast from him when he died. Sheogorath caring about Akatosh/Lorkhan is in a way caring about himself.

4. Actually according to the Devs all conflicting lore happened simultaneously, there isn't anything vague or wrong all of it is true.

To say that the ES lore is conflicting is to miss the entire point of the Es universe itself. Which is to say belief affects and alters reality.

1)Except everything isn't true because its based on what you thought. The game isn't validating your choices, you are because they give you room to.
2)You are saying that because they are a duality, they are the same entity. It is like saying because batman represents order and joker represents chaos, they are the same entity. They aren't they are two different entities that are facets of a duality. All of the gods in Elder scrolls are like this and they are different entities.
3)Except Shivering Isles removed the direct connection between Sheogorath and Lorkhan. Lorkhan has no connection with the change of Jygalag because it took place long after the start of the mythic era when the aedra were cut off from the daedra. The Lorkhan/Sheo connection is only brought up in a few books.
4)According to only some of the devs. The way you view the events in the game are your choice because these devs didn't make their opinions apart of cannon. There is no RELIABLE source in game that says that everything is true.