The Elder Scrolls VI: Gameplay Changes

octafish

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Bethesda should hire some writers, good writers who know how to do story in games, to write the story. I know Elder Scrolls games have never had a good story but it is the big weak point of the games for me. I can't help but wonder what an Elder Scrolls games written by some one like Chris Avellone would be like. Certainly more ambitious story wise than what we get now.

Also they need to make the games bigger, they have been improving with Oblivion and Skyrim gradually expanding, but the modern games still feel claustrophobic compared to Daggerfall.
 

UsefulPlayer 1

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There must be a way to block when I have a weapon!

Without blocking, fighting just comes down to back pedaling or expending all offensive abilities as fast as you can.
Oblivion had it right with the block button.

It would make the spell/sword combo and duel wielding much more fun. Obviously the blocking wouldn't be as good, but it doesn't make sense for someone just to blast away without stopping any incoming attacks.

And it would help if wards acted abit more like shields, I mean shields are basically wards with a certain perk.
 

WaysideMaze

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Apr 25, 2010
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Darkmantle said:
WaysideMaze said:
Luca72 said:
So basically... just do what Morrowind did, except with the new engine! :)
This just sums up my feeling perfectly. Just make Morrowind with Skyrims graphics, and a better combat system. I would be all over that.
I'm not sure what is encompassed by engine so I'll just ask, does the new engine include the actual combat mechanics? because I hated the combat mechanics in morrowind. I hate that my sword connecting is not necessarily a hit, I hated not being able to manually control my shield.

And I do not know how people could find that enjoyable. Unless they enjoyed the game despite those flaws.
It really was a 'despite those flaws' type situation.

I'm sure if Fappy [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/Fappy] was here he'd agree, but there was a fantastic world to explore full of interesting characters, you just had to get past the terrible combat system. Unfortunately, combat is a big part of the game, so there is a lot to get past.

I tended to play a Mage, so it didn't bother me as much.

Out of interest, which TES game did you play first?
 

Shocksplicer

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I think the whole "Skills get better as you use them" style is perfectly fine. It's the way Elder Scrolls has always been, and getting experience for quests is irrelevant. It's not about reaching a level cap like in other RPGs, it's about getting better at the skills you use.

Classes are also against the philosophy of the Elder Scrolls games, as they railroad you to a certain way of playing instead of having your character and story evolve as you play.

Also, while I acknowledge that New Vegas had some ideas that people liked and would like to see in future Elder Scrolls games, it's important to realise that New Vegas was made by a different developer (Obsidian) than the Elder Scrolls games.
 

gideonkain

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I just got bored of the game after awhile, I duel wieled magic swords in plate armor and popped potions left and right...basically the only reason to die was I depleted my stack or decided to wait a little to long to press Q.

Became pointless to play really.

So I guess, limit the frequency at which you can drink a potion and have enemies do more than run directly up to you or within 10 feet to cast magic.
 

Elamdri

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Paragon Fury said:
WARNING: Long read ahead. Prepare yourself.

So while playing Skyrim earlier today, I was talking with a friend about what could make the next Elder Scrolls game (no, not the MMO, which I think for most people won't count anyway except for some interesting lore stuff) better in some core areas. My friend didn't have much to say beyond "It needs to be better". I on the other hand actually had a rather detailed list of things that could be done to improve some key things in the next. A lot of it is just combinations or refinements of things from other Bethesda games, but it would definitely help.

So here is what I thought:

- The Return of Classes, Major/Minor Skills
Classes should return, like they were in Oblivion with some modifications. You still have the "Thief, Mage, Warrior" archetypes, but within them you can choose things like Paladin (Restoration Warrior), Witchblade (Magical Assassin), Battleamage etc. You could still of course make your own class. Major skills level the fastest, then minor skills, and then skills that are neither major nor minor level the slowest. Classes help a lot in roleplay, and Major/Minor skills help define how a class plays. The ability to make your own class lets you build whatever you want, so you're aren't limited, just defined.

- Racial Skill Bonuses
Rather than starting with higher skill in something, your Racial Skill bonus should mean you're just naturally more talented at learning that skill - essentially it gives you 2/3 extra minor skills - or if they skills are minor skills for your class, ups them to the level of major skills.

- Return of Attributes/Abilities
In Skyrim, the three attributes are Health, Magicika and Stamina. In the Elder Scrolls VI, these should be replaced with a version of the "SPECIAL" system from Fallout 3/New Vegas. I like to call it "SECIAD" for Strength, Endurance, Charisma, Intellect, Athleticism and Dexterity. Each attribute governs a certain area of a character - Strength governs damage with melee weapons, strength of your shield block, how often you can stagger enemies, how often they stagger you and if you can intimidate people. Endurance raises your health, carry capacity and reduces the effects of DoT abilities. Charisma governs how well people like you, how you can influence people, and how well you barter - in addition, too low a charisma score means some segments of society may not want to interact with you. Intellect governs your available magicika, how fast you level up skills, and opens up some dialogue options depending on how smart/stupid you are. Athleticism governs how long and how fast you can sprint, and gives you more stamina. Dexterity governs the damage of bows, sneaking effectiveness, pickpocket success and lockpicking.

Each race starts with naturally higher/lower attributes - High Elves start with higher intellect and lower strength, etc. These can be increased with level-ups - every time you level up you can spend a small amount of points to level up attributes however you see fit.

- Skills System Revamp
The way skills and perks are handled in Skyrim is interesting, but I think they could be done better. First thing is "skill scaling" - essentially, as a skill in a certain area levels up, your base abilities in that skills are also go up. Instead of taking "Armsman" to upgrade the damage your one-handed weapons do, just leveling up One-Handed will make your one-handed weapons more powerful. The same with Magic, Archery and Armor, etc.

"Perks" instead should be treated like "talents" - basically, things that your constant use of the skill and practice have taught you. Even odd numbered level you're given a Perk point to spend, and you can choose one perk you meet the skill requirement for, like Skyrim or Fallout. However instead of the perks like Armsman or the Novice>Master perks, perks are designed to actually affect gameplay.

An example of the new perks would be something like these Restoration options:

Healer - Spells with healing effects cost 25% to cast
Regeneration - Healing effects of spells are 25% more effective
Banisher - Spells that affect the Undead are 25% more effective
Bane of Death - Healing effects damage the Undead
Golden Hands - Can Dual-Cast Restoration Spells for 2x effectiveness

etc.

- Loot/Smithing Overhaul
Essentially, these does what Morrowind did - the high level equipment (Glass, Elven, Dwarven, Deadric, Ebony etc.) is no longer Smithable or buyable (with rare exceptions) - initially. Instead the high level equipment can only be found by dungeon diving, searching, and stealing it from the people who are wealthy enough to own it. Some things, like Dwarven, Elven or Orcish might appear in shops occasionally, but you have no chance of ever seeing Ebony, Glass, Dragon Bone or Deadric in a shop or randomly on some bandit. You'll have to explore and find the best equipment.

The one exception is if your Smithing skill is high enough, you can find and read/be taught how to make these pieces of equipment once you locate the right person/find the right book. It make sense that you wouldn't gain magical knowledge on how to make the best equipment by Smithing 1000s of daggers and jewelery, but an experienced Smith could be taught how to make the best equipment for themselves.

- Armor/Clothing
Equip-able items need to be expanded - something like Head, Left/Right Shoulder, Chest, Legs, Feet, Cloak, 2x Rings, Necklace, Shields.

- "Semi" Scaling
A big sticking point for a lot of people is nature of scaling in Bethesda games.
I can see the issue, but I understand its use. Rather than scrap it, I purpose "Semi" Scaling instead. "Semi" scaling means that only certain parts/quests are scaled to the player, or only scaled by a small amount, in order to facilitate play at all levels of the game. So for instance, the Main Quest would be scaled to the player, and so would some of the early guild quests, but random areas, dungeons, roads, cities, later guild quests, certain side quests etc. would not be scaled, IE: you could wonder into a dungeon meant for level 45 characters at level 13, for instance.

- Magic and Spells
Spells, as noted before, should scale with your skill level. This eliminates the different levels of the same spell - essentially the only differences spells should be delivery and effects. IE: There would be no "Turn Undead" and "Turn Lesser Undead" spells. Instead there would be just "Turn Undead" and the spell would be a projectile, touch or AoE spell. Or another example, there would be "Fire", "Fire Projectile", "Fire Touch" etc.

Custom spells should come back as well, as well as some new elements - Earth spells?

- Reputation/Factions Relationships
Its quite simple - becoming friendly with one faction makes another dislike you, and vice versa. This can and should escalate to exclusion from their cities/towns, vendors, quests and even result in being attacked on sight. IE: Becoming too friendly with the Dark Brotherhood makes the Companions no longer like you because they believe you to have no honor and refuse to deal with you.

Also, having a certain reputation should affect how NPC interact with you - for example, the Master of the Dark Brotherhood should inspire terror in mere bandits and cause them to flee rather than fight.

- Hardcore Mode
Hardcore Mode from New Vegas needs to appear again. Except I purpose it be divided three ways:
Normal, Advanced and Hardcore. Normal would be like default Skyrim or Fallout - no need to eat, sleep etc. Level up anywhere. Advanced would require you to eat, drink and sleep to stay alive. Hardcore would require all that, plus you could only level up when you slept, and there would be environmental effects to worry about - cold in Skyrim, heat in Hammerfell, etc.

There was a bit more, but I tire of typing, so I'll leave it as it is for now.
Pretty much the only thing I agree with is the custom spells part. Everything else you described, well in my opinion Skyrim was hugely improved by taking those elements out.

I suppose having an optional Hardcore mode isn't bad. I really don't get the point of it, but I see no reason to leave it out of the game if it doesn't affect me and others want it.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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First and foremost, can we have one game where the whole game world isn't made way worse and less fun as a punishment for doing the main quest? I prefer not having oblivion gates everywhere and daedra attracting/attacking npcs/guards that I'm escorting or avoiding, and generally being annoying. It requires you going into yet another copypasta tower which I ended up just chameleon sprinting through for the 20th time to get rid of them. Though at least they all went away after the end quest.

Dragons, however, are the worst enemies in either game, and are never ending. They aren't relegated to their word walls or certain areas. They will troll you at anytime, by flying out of range for as long as possible, and their AI seems to target every moving entity that is not the Dovakiin. Only when all other options are exhausted will they deign to engage you in combat assuming you haven't managed to hit them with an arrow or spell or have dragon rend yet.

You fight them again and again until you could build a 1:1 replica of RED MOUNTAIN with all the dragon carcasses sprawling around the cities like so much fucking garbage. I get that dragon encounters were meant to be random and epic, and the bones would be a reminder of your awesome victory, but after you have skeletons randomly fallout of the sky every time you zone into a town and all over the countryside its just sad.

Luckily you can just avoid the main quests in ES games so far, and even though you miss out on shouts, its totally worth no dragons IMO. Most of the shouts kinda sucked anyways. Only about 5 were cool, and I almost think they took what could have been awesome destruction/illusion spells (storm call, animal allegiance) and made them shouts instead.

There are a ridiculous number of spell effects absent from Skyrim from Oblivion. I get why there are no open lock spells, because you would never use a pick like I never did other than to level in Oblivion. But why are there no charm, absorb, fortify, etc. etc. spells?

You can enchant absorb hp into a weapon, you can drink a fortify hp or regenerate potion, but mages get nada. The reason Collette has no respect, and restoration by extension, is that all the good spells were removed. Seriously you get healing, wards (useless), and turn undead (which is next to useless at high level and unaffected by dual cast). In the DLC at least you get spells that actually damage undead as much as equivalent fire spells for way less mp cost.

Some spells that actually looked cool would be nice too. Sparks and Ice Storm are about it. Even something as simple as making more powerful fire magick burn at a different color would be nice. It would also be realistic if that means anything. It could also do more damage to animals or bandits wearing fur armor.

Icy spear could pierce an enemy completely and keep going, or it could shatter on impact with an armored opponent/ground and spray shrapnel that caused bleed damage/blind nearby foes.

Lightning could have an accompanying concussive blast of thunder that made nearby enemies flinch or would be super effective on metal armored opponents. It might cause them to drop their weapons, but that would be pretty OP. The stamina/magicka damage I don't care about and never rely on.

Something that actually gave a tactical advantage to using one type of damage over another, aside from the current system which goes:

Is it a storm atronach? If yes use fire, if no use lightning.
Are you sick of or not wanting to use lighting? Continue to next line.
Is it a flame atronach or a Dunmer? If yes, congratulations you can use ice and not feel like an idiot. If no, 'TIS WEAK TO FIRE!

In oblivion they were way more defined. Fire was a medium speed projectile that could aoe on impact. Frost was a slow moving aoe that sadly did crap damage comparatively but was great for delivering other effects like a one sec paralyze. Lighting was instant hit for way more cost.

Though I'm glad they got rid of Touch delivered spells aside from soul trap for some reason. I just wish there were like expert level concentration spells like the novice ones.

Get rid of backwards and sideways power attacks, I mean as long as they are going to be completely useless.

In Oblivion using a 2 handed weapon and backwards power attacking made you kind of spin around and stab forward which with the paralyze effect you automatically earned was pretty useful. It didn't work well with one handed as the reach sucked.

In Skyrim you just back up slowly and chop downward, which misses every time unless your opponent is attempting to lead you in a waltz at that moment instead of attacking you and being defensive like, you know, an enemy AI.

Sideways is only useful with sweep, which requires 2handed and more than one enemy up in yo grill in a more or less straight line. This is most easily arranged with horkers, because they are not very subtle.

Its amusing to pull off but not very useful. Standing and forward power attacks are way better and do more damage. I even like the running jump one you can do, though its a waste of a perk it at least requires a bit of good timing and some aim.

I want destruction magic, all on its own with no conjuration/illusion copping out, to be able to wreck things as much or MORE than melee can, but not as much as say a backstab with poison.

My favorite spells are the novice destruction spells sadly, followed by the apprentice, and pretty much go downhill from there.

The master level spells suck, because you can't hold them ready and move around to unleash them. I'm fine with a long charge time and high mp cost, but being rooted to the spot to unleash crap damage is sad. Fundamentally changing the way you perform one of your main skills after hours and hours of using it, with no real benefit over using the lower spells is just poor design.

Also, what is their obsession with giving you such cool ice spells in Obvlivion and Skyrim (idk if its the same in Morrowwind) and making 90% of the enemies resistant or immune to ice damage?

Seriously why in the hell would I ever use ice magic In Skyrim? It costs more mp than fire, doesn't have fire's DOT, and reducing stamina MEANS NOTHING WHEN POWER ATTACKS REQUIRE ONLY ONE FUCKING POINT OF STAMINA. I guess the unnoticeable and brief slow effect is nice, and the paralyze effect when they are gonna die in one shot more anyways is...useful?

Shock is alright, and even useful against mages and agile opponents. I just don't like using it because I feel like I'm playing Infamous and I usually miss with it for some reason. It also has like half the range of other spells with way more cost.

I just like impaling shit with ice spikes/setting things on fire, but the hoops you need to jump through to make that work after lvl 35 or so aren't worth it. I don't want to have to spam 8 dual cast necromaged incinerates with zero cost enchants (because you can't actually have enough macgika to use the spells you need to use at high level without huge cost reduction) just to take out a drauger deathlord that can one shot me with an arrow.

(Edit: Yes I know I could just chug magicka potions constantly, but that more than anything else breaks any sense of flow in a battle and feel too much like cheating. Oh I'm losing let me pause the fight and use potions or console commands to get my hp/mp back 'kay? I use restoration, kite, and add magicka/regen for a reason. It would be too damn boring to just have no challenge i.e. 100% casting cost reduction)

I also don't really like being the one oneshotting everything with arrows. If I wanted to do that I'd go play Borderlands because at least I know that if I see an enemy in the distance I can immediately hit it and see it splode. In skyrim half the time the arrow goes through a distant target to land in the ground right behind it, assuming I can calculate on the fly the arc it should need and don't miss completely.

This makes actually adding magicka on level up totally pointless, along with stamina. As I said all you need is one point to power attack or bash, and you can eat vegetable soup to break that mechanic completely. You can cast with no cost, so mp is useless. Just use arrows until you can get 100 enchanting then go nuts with magic...

Wards would be cool, it stepping out of the way wasn't much easier. Also if wards didn't take an insane amount of mp just to keep up. How about it drains slowly and WHEN IT BLOCKS DAMAGE your MP takes a bigger hit. Also the fact that enemy mages have a bajillion mp and machine gun ice spikes (which usually slow me to a crawl or cause me to be unable to move at all until I sheath my whatever) using the ward as intended isn't even an option usually.

On my first file I was super excited to finally get the ward absorb perk. I was disappoint.

I just play as a Breton, get 2 perks in magic res, agent of mara and use lord stone. Problem solved.
 

WorriedSandwich

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My personal changelist:

-Let Obsidian write the game.
-Employ Bethesda writers to make coffee for the Obsidian writers.
 

GundamSentinel

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Aug 23, 2009
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All I want from a new Elder Scrolls game is for quests to actually mean something. And I'm not talking about rewards, but just about impact on the world. That's the big thing that bugs me about every Elder Scrolls game: you can save the world multiple times in a single game and no-one and nothing seems to acknowledge that.

People are still commenting about how you're the lastest member of the Companions while you're already leader of the Companions, and the College of Winterhold, Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild, have saved the world from dragons, singlehandedly ended the civil war and a lot more besides. Whatever you do, nothing changes in the world at all. Nothing means anything. Skyrim was great and had a lot to do and to explore, but it was way too shallow.

Alright, alright, gameplay right? How about making an actual melee combat system? When it comes to melee combat, the Elder Scrolls uses a shooter engine with very short range guns. That's basically how melee works now. It is of course the simplest way to do it in first person, but it looks and feels horrible.

Also, not making higher level spells crappier than lower level ones would be a good idea. Master level spells in Skyrim are completely useless.
 

RazielXT

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TheNamlessGuy said:
BeeGeenie said:
Create your own spells. dang it.
Bethesda, Y U NO Include that feature?!
They obviously couldn't in Skyrim, due to dual weilding.

It would require immense scripting, and probably imports of new textures.
I dont think it would be any more difficult than in Oblivion, its not like youre creating new element or something.
 

Dandark

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Im pretty happy with Skyrim's gameplay at the moment if im honest. I am happy with the blade and blunt skills being replaced by one handed and two handed. I also like the magic system better, that is you get perks to reduce cost rather than having to just get 5 trillion mana in Oblivion so that you could cast a spell that does more than scratch the enemy.

I suppose I would like conjured armour to make a return as well as more conjured weapons. It would also be great if they brought back more of the effects from oblivion and added new ones, boots of seastride were awesome.
 

Ben Agar

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WorriedSandwich said:
My personal changelist:

-Let Obsidian write the game.
-Employ Bethesda writers to make coffee for the Obsidian writers.
Amen. Obsidian makes great stories, FO NV so much better than 3 in every way even without the railroading of 3. That is what would make the next Elder Scrolls great.
 

snagli

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I want the Guilds to return. The College, Companions, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood aren't guilds, they're just linear quest lines. I want a hub in each city, with a local guildmaster that gives me my quests. I want ranks, damn it, and I want advancement in those ranks to be based on both quests AND skills. How is it possible for me to become Archmage when I used a spell maybe twice in my playthrough? I want certain quests to only be available to me once I reach a certain level or reach a certain rank. It was incredibly satisfying in Oblivion to go from Apprentice to Magician to Archmage, or from Tourist to Duke to Madgod. I want that back.
 

Cyfu

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halfeclipse said:
Paragon Fury said:
- The Return of Classes, Major/Minor Skills
Classes should return, like they were in Oblivion with some modifications. You still have the "Thief, Mage, Warrior" archetypes, but within them you can choose things like Paladin (Restoration Warrior), Witchblade (Magical Assassin), Battleamage etc. You could still of course make your own class. Major skills level the fastest, then minor skills, and then skills that are neither major nor minor level the slowest. Classes help a lot in roleplay, and Major/Minor skills help define how a class plays. The ability to make your own class lets you build whatever you want, so you're aren't limited, just defined.

Why? If I'm running around throwing fireballs and lighting I'm clearly a mage, if I've got a sword and plate Armour at the same time, battle mage. Bow and arrow and light armor instead? Archer. It could do with laying out classes better then in Skyrim, but a pop up menu is not the way to do it.
What if you start out as, let's say a farmer or adventurer who has no bonus attributes what so ever and you kind of suck in general. You could of course defeat a rat and perhaps a wolf and you would have big problems fighting a bandit. Like one would be challenging and 2 would be fucking hard.

and to actually become something, like a warrior or an archer or a mage you would have to find a tutor in the field you want to specialize in and pay him to learn you things. Like Risen does. I think that would be a nice way of implementing classes in any game.
 

Cyfu

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kman123 said:
You know what bugged me?

You could only put ONE ring on. Last time I checked, I had two hands.

Seriously, that's bugging me to no end.
and 10 fingers^^ all though that would probably be a bit broken.
but yeah, I agree. It's kind of stupid that you can only wear one ring.

EDIT: Oh fuck, double post...