The Elder Souls?

[deathzero021]

If Skyrim had Dark Souls combat, i would actually consider playing Skyrim.

 

[NoeL]

I think there is a big difference between the concept of who the hero is in both games. I use Hero Losely.

In the Elder Scrolls, your basically the 'chosen' one who is supposed to do this and that, so combat should be a lot easier (or at least not as difficult as Dark Souls since you have the divine on your side.)

In Dark Souls, your just a random undead who has been told a myth that hundreds of other undeads may have tried to reach, you just were the one to make it. Your just a nobody, which means these big monsters are -not- going to be easy.

So yeah, thats my first reasoning.

After that though, I think its also good to have a variety of combat styles. Some people may not like TES combat, and some may not like the DaS combat, so its nice to have both.

Honestly, I think Skyrim just need more content. The environment has a lot of content... the quest/events/etc. werent that much though.

For the love of God, *you're. Learn and apply.

OT: I haven't really played enough of either to appreciate their nuances, but unless you were trying to parry in Dark Souls I don't see a huge difference between them - just block then slash. The thing that annoyed me most is the lack of feedback when you hit someone. There's a spray of blood but the character usually doesn't even flinch (talking about Oblivion/Skyrim, since I'm not that familiar with the earlier games). Fix that up so it feels like your blows have impact and I'll have no problems with the system.

 

[Raziel]

I don't think dark souls bosses are a good example in any way. Almost all of them are way outta balance and you have to win be cheesing them.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Until someone makes Dark Messiah of Might And Magic 2, the DMOMAM will have the best first person melee gameplay ever.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

It's been said before, but I think the tonal differences between Dark Souls and The Elder Scrolls wouldn't make for a great experience.

Dark Souls is centered around the concept of inching along oppressive locales and learning by the skin of your teeth or after several consecutive failures, until you manage to borderline one-hundred-percent your way through the stage. The game's failure state is there as a reminder that you haven't buffed up your knowledge of the varying mobs and their attack patterns enough, it mocks you for attempting challenges you aren't all but entirely ready to face.

Skyrim is much more forgiving, even on Legendary difficulty. There are no tactics other than hoping that your damage values are high enough to obliterate all opposition before they obliterate you. Seeing as you're the Dragonborn, the game tries its hardest to make you feel significant in the game's world, or at least powerful and notable.

As someone else has noted, you're nobody special in the Souls games. You're just one guy who has the audacity and sheer luck to think he can rise up to the challenges ahead. In a way, the Souls games treat the player in the same way Diablo II treated its own players. Your character class and build never really mattered to Sanctuary; all that really mattered to Tyrael et co. was your ability to kick demon ass.

Tonally, the differences are huge. The gameplay reflects that, seeing as Skyrim is largely okay with you bashing Alduin with a warhammer while quaffing twenty health potions in one go. On the other hand, Dark Souls actively punishes you for using mechanics that make life easier on you. I don't suppose I need to remind anyone of how the first game's Estus flask was as much a blessing as it was an intentional hindrance; what with its prolonged healing animation that left you a sitting duck.

 

[endtherapture]

It's been said before, but I think the tonal differences between Dark Souls and The Elder Scrolls wouldn't make for a great experience.

Dark Souls is centered around the concept of inching along oppressive locales and learning by the skin of your teeth or after several consecutive failures, until you manage to borderline one-hundred-percent your way through the stage. The game's failure state is there as a reminder that you haven't buffed up your knowledge of the varying mobs and their attack patterns enough, it mocks you for attempting challenges you aren't all but entirely ready to face.

Skyrim is much more forgiving, even on Legendary difficulty. There are no tactics other than hoping that your damage values are high enough to obliterate all opposition before they obliterate you. Seeing as you're the Dragonborn, the game tries its hardest to make you feel significant in the game's world, or at least powerful and notable.

As someone else has noted, you're nobody special in the Souls games. You're just one guy who has the audacity and sheer luck to think he can rise up to the challenges ahead. In a way, the Souls games treat the player in the same way Diablo II treated its own players. Your character class and build never really mattered to Sanctuary; all that really mattered to Tyrael et co. was your ability to kick demon ass.

Tonally, the differences are huge. The gameplay reflects that, seeing as Skyrim is largely okay with you bashing Alduin with a warhammer while quaffing twenty health potions in one go. On the other hand, Dark Souls actively punishes you for using mechanics that make life easier on you. I don't suppose I need to remind anyone of how the first game's Estus flask was as much a blessing as it was an intentional hindrance; what with its prolonged healing animation that left you a sitting duck.

I wouldn't say the combat system, per say, is responsible for Dark Souls atmosphere.

That's a combination of the bonfire system, the lack of NPCs, the art style, the locales, the sound effects of the monsters, the system for gaining exp and souls, in my opinion is far more responsible for the game feeling oppressive and desolate.

The combat system is merely a fairly tactical, slow and responsive combat system. It definitely emphasizes knowing the moves you and your opponents possess, but I reckon a slightly more arcadey version would work for TES, with everything a bit less brutal, slightly sped up, and with a mana system instead of a limited use of spells.

You've got to admit TES is imbalanced towards Mages. Melee and archers have unlimited stamina to use their attacks, but Mages have their finite magic system. Dark Souls stamina system would help o make this better.

 

[WaysideMaze]

Having not played DS (I did try demons souls for a few hours however) I might be wrong, but isn't the point of DS that the encounters are fixed, and supposed to be approached with caution? For me, TES is about exploration over combat, and I just can't see the brutal DS combat working in a TES game.

To be honest, I'm with SovietHeavy. The problem lies less with the combat system and more with the AI and encounter design.

 

[Voulan]

Although I've never played Dark Souls, I'm perfectly happy with the way TES deals with combat already. The only mechanic I would like to see is some sort of passive dodging ability rather than only the use of a shield. Basically, I'd like Acrobatics to come back as a skill.

Perhaps I'm just not very aware of how combat mechanics work, but I find it satisfactory.

EDIT: In terms of boss fights, I do agree that TES lacks there, especially with the rather lacklustre final quest fight. I think Dragonborn took a few good steps forward, though - I loved the Miraak fight, and that optional frost giant king really had me on my toes.

 

[mjcabooseblu]

animals don't have "move sets" they are hostile predators which attack on sight.

Besides that, the next biggest threat you face are undead, which are rotten things driven only by hatred or some magical command, again, not really in the position to have complex tactics.

Bandits, and bandit variants such as the forsworn, are the next biggest threat, and bandit traditionally operate on a "swarm them" mentality. Very few bandits IRL were highly trained in advanced battle tactics, they just swarmed and pillaged defenseless people

I felt this needed quoting because it sort of highlights the disparity between Souls and Skyrim. In Souls, animals and zombies DO have distinct movesets and tactics they apply, despite their supposed lack of intelligence. Even the rats, that always seem a bit too eager to run away, will lead you into devious traps and generally do things to put you in a tough situation. This is because FROM recognized that maybe it's okay to stretch the believability of the lore to make the game play better.

Beyond just the combat overhaul, what Skyrim DESPERATELY needs is better, more challenging combat AI, and if you're going to change that much, why not just play Dark Souls? The story is kind of way better, albeit much less accessible.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Why are so many people not getting what the TC was asking? They are not asking to make Elder Scrolls like Dark Souls, they are just asking about taking Dark Souls combat and putting it in Elder Scrolls, that is all. Elder Scrolls desperately needs better combat but I don't think Dark Souls is the way to go because it's just not that good.

No, not Dark Souls. One of the great things about Elder Scrolls combat it there are no (or very few) context sensitive lock on mechanics. I cannot stand having to lock on to my enemies before swinging my sword in their direction. Also, I do not want to be reliant on having a shield.

Dark Souls does not require lock on to play. Many parts its actually incredibly dangerous and foolish to use it in. And requiring a shield!? You need a shield in Skyrim for melee combat due to how awful duel wielding and two handing is, and since dodging isn't a thing. Dark Souls you never need a shield at any point unless your tanking in which case OBVIOUSLY a shield will help you tank. Lock on is ENTIRELY optional and is there simply to make one on one combat easier to aim and dodge around in.

Dark Souls was rather easy and I used lock-on the whole game, I don't even recall a part where lock-on was dangerous. The fact that you can't backpedal with a shield up while not locked-on made locking on rather important. I'm sure you can play without a shield in Dark Souls, but I don't really get the point outside of making the game more challenging than it should be as even a Dex build can block just about everything with a light shield. Plus, Dark Souls is all about surviving to the next bonfire and a shield helps greatly in doing that.

 

[Elfgore]

I like my Elder Scrolls the way it is. The combat is fine, I don't want a challenge. I just want to explore the world, take in the lore, and do whatever else I feel like.

 

[endtherapture]

People aren't getting that I wouldn't like TES combat to be Dark Souls hard, just somewhat engaging rather than button spam.

 

[Benpasko]

Lock on the whole game is stupid. You cant fight groups well if your locked up. Hell, you pretty much a fucked if you fight O&S using lock on. And you cant block 'just about everything' with a small shield. With a dex build, I barely could block most things using a black knight shield.

A lot of people say locking on to O&S is a bad idea, and I never had any problems with that fight using lock on most of the time. You can't circlestrafe with your shield up unlocked. And the thing about groups doesn't apply either, it's just a matter of preference. Do you prefer microing your lock-on target or microing the camera is what it really comes down to.

 

[bigwon]

yeah i think dark messiah would be a better example to follow then dark souls in this case as far as control scheme goes. I do think that the attack pattern system wouldn't work because alot of your encounters aren't as tailored given the nature of the game.

What I mean is that Dark Souls incorporates the environment into the mix and it's usually what makes each encounter it's own little puzzle. In Skyrim the environment is more of a back drop so any pattern that you'd have to learn would be more redundant and repetitive to each npc.

But it'd be neat if they added some sort of pattern system. Maybe a more varied and open ended approach to the a.i to make up for the lack of level design based stuffs. I was thinking of having a load of patterns that are open to a given creature/npc/category based on it's design and simply generate random personalities that utilize select patterns/behaviors
in varied combinations.

You could then just keep the difficulty slider like they had it to adjust the health/resistance/etc. of enemies to accommodate casual players. Would probably even make the game funner for them..I could be wrong though.

I feel like a system like this would greatly enhance both the combat and exploration aspects of the game because it would make the npc's more organic in ways as opposed to just trying to fit as much voice acting into your budget as you can.

example: say you had a particular followers that reacted differently to any given scenario (enemy types, locales, racism, phobias, etc. to risk going over board) that could help players in having there own unique play through(s).

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Dark Souls does not require lock on to play. Many parts its actually incredibly dangerous and foolish to use it in. And requiring a shield!? You need a shield in Skyrim for melee combat due to how awful duel wielding and two handing is, and since dodging isn't a thing. Dark Souls you never need a shield at any point unless your tanking in which case OBVIOUSLY a shield will help you tank. Lock on is ENTIRELY optional and is there simply to make one on one combat easier to aim and dodge around in.

Dark Souls was rather easy and I used lock-on the whole game, I don't even recall a part where lock-on was dangerous. The fact that you can't backpedal with a shield up while not locked-on made locking on rather important. I'm sure you can play without a shield in Dark Souls, but I don't really get the point outside of making the game more challenging than it should be as even a Dex build can block just about everything with a light shield. Plus, Dark Souls is all about surviving to the next bonfire and a shield helps greatly in doing that.

Lock on the whole game is stupid. You cant fight groups well if your locked up. Hell, you pretty much a fucked if you fight O&S using lock on. And you cant block 'just about everything' with a small shield. With a dex build, I barely could block most things using a black knight shield.

You pretty much almost never have to face multiple enemies at once in Dark Souls, I almost never did. You can block almost every normal enemy's attacks just fine with a light shield. You can block the knights' triple sword attack with the spider shield. Dark Souls was rather poorly balanced when Dex builds can block just about every enemy in the game.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Hope you don't mind some copypasta from my thread here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.828231-Ideas-To-Improve-Next-Elder-Scrolls-Melee-Combat?page=3].

So, I think we're all in agreement that we'd like to generally see some more oomph, me included, in the melee combat. Let's break down what will be improved when you level up.

Techniques: A person new to combat with a weapon only knows how to do three things with it. Block with it, strike with it, and strike REALLY hard with it. As one levels up though, they may be able to learn different moves (perhaps in the form of some perks) with it that scale in effectiveness according to how high up the perk tree they are.

General Strength: What I'd really like to do is reimplement the Strength stat that used to be in Oblivion and Morrowind for this. A universal strength value for all weapons and shields. But, let us assume that we don't have that luxury. In which case, it will work just like in classic Skyrim. How much damage you do and how much damage you can block are dictated heavily by how high a particular skill level is.

Second thing to do is get some weight behind those swings. Better sounds are a must. I particularly like the sound of your sword hitting armor and flesh in Morrowind. Very meaty and metallic. I think we should have four types of stunning to convey different weapon impacts.

Type 1: Normal swing from a one-handed in that the opponent might shudder or turn a little away from it but otherwise, won't have an effect in combat. Basically it looks like your swings are stunning the opponent without actually stunning them. This is purely for looks and feel. Again, has no bearing on how the actual combat will go down but it will always happen in some way or another with a normal swing from a normal one-handed weapon.

Type 2: A stagger brought on by a power swing from a one-handed OR a normal swing from a good sized two-handed weapon. The time of stagger will be a little less than a typical stagger in Skyrim. Cannot interrupt swings already in progress but WILL lessen the damage of them.

Type 3: Usually brought on by a power swing with a two-handed weapon. Will interrupt swings. Somewhat longer stagger than the second type.

Type 4: Dictated purely by how much damage in one swing is done to the opponents health. 3/4ths or more of an opponents maximum health must be taken out in one hit in order for this to happen. If it does, any swing will be interrupted like in the 3rd type and the opponent will be knocked completely down or at least be put on their knees. I don't know how long it should take for the opponent to get up though. Since such nasty damage was done, I'm thinking not for at least 4 secs.

Let's move on to Stamina now. Currently I think it does a good job with how it currently is but it can definitely be improved upon. For one, lets have it regenerate faster. Probably 1.5x - 2.0x how it normally is. Also, a normal two-handed swing will cost a little stamina as well now. The last thing will be that for every swing that costs stamina, a little bit is taken away from how much it is possible to regenerate. Stamina capacity (not the stamina itself) will be fully regained right after a battle is over. Also, just like in Skyrim, Stamina capacity can be improved by leveling up.

Now on to dual-wielding. Personally, I don't really see a difference in power output as compared to just using one one-handed weapon unless you have the Dual Furry perk. It needs to be more unique. Now, there's a lot of ways we can go about dual-wielding. Maybe we should have a whole separate skill tree for it. Actually, you know what, I really like that idea. This would give it the opportunity to stand out and allow you to earn separate techniques for it. Anyone have any other suggestions for this?

I only have little suggestions for blocking as I think it's just fine. I am definitely willing to listen though, however, I really don't think we should go back to blocking that's dictated by chance like it was in Morrowind. And I think blocking with a weapon needs to be just a bit more effective.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You pretty much almost never have to face multiple enemies at once in Dark Souls, I almost never did. You can block almost every normal enemy's attacks just fine with a light shield. You can block the knights' triple sword attack with the spider shield. Dark Souls was rather poorly balanced when Dex builds can block just about every enemy in the game.

"Almost never" is absolute bullshit. About half the areas in the game have spawns that mean you will ALWAYS fight multiple at once. And a spider shield absolutely could not block a three hit combo from the Black Knights. You'd take maybe 1 hit and all your stamina would be gone except maybe a little bit. Unless you also pumped your character with endurance.

You can pull enemies one-by-one to you for pretty much every part of the game. Spider shield can block the knights' 3-hit combos because I did it. You can lower your shield in-between hits to regain stamina super fast. I split my stats among Dex, Vit, End, and Faith. If I wanted to, I could've ignored Dex putting an element on my weapon and ignored Faith using fire magic thus putting everything into Vit and End, that's how poor Dark Souls' RPG mechanics are.

 

[Lieju]

Or vice versa.

I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.

Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.

If you could use your skills to navigate your way around combat, like in New Vegas, well yeah then I'd give you that one, but Skyrim doesn't take that approach, it's just "kill everything", so logically they should make the combat better.

Or not make the combat necessary.
You can level up Speech, the game should give you more opportunities to use such skills to avoid fights.
My problem with Skyrim was that everyone wanted me dead. Random people would attack me in the wilderness for no reason. At least I can understand why they'd attack me when I've broken into their lair...

I don't think the combat is the point of the game, though. Exploration and building your character are, which is why I think it's stupid the game forces you in combat so much.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yes you 'can' pull every enemy. If you know exactly where every single one spawns and how far their aggro range is exactly so you can avoid pulling the countless enemies positioned to make individual pulling extremely difficult.

You can see and notice enemies before they notice you, then hit one with an arrow and they will come to you. It's really easy and you can do it all game on your initial playthrough where you don't even know enemy spawns or anything.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Yes you 'can' pull every enemy. If you know exactly where every single one spawns and how far their aggro range is exactly so you can avoid pulling the countless enemies positioned to make individual pulling extremely difficult.

You can see and notice enemies before they notice you, then hit one with an arrow and they will come to you. It's really easy and you can do it all game on your initial playthrough where you don't even know enemy spawns or anything.

So your basically saying with all these: the game is really easy when you cheese it. As is every game ever made. And I never tried that because I never carried a bow. Just adds weight onto my low endurance character who needs to conserve space so he can flip with ninja armour.

When the game cheeses me, I cheese it back. The game is about surviving from one bonfire to another, it is made clear that the game will do anything and everything to kill you so I will do anything and everything to avoid that from happening. I even made it through all of Sen's Fortress not getting hit with a trap once without a guide on my one and only playthrough. It just shows how bad the AI is though, what other game allows you to shoot into a group of enemies and only the one enemy that got hit comes to you? I was playing a Dex build, guess what Dex is good for? That's right, a bow and arrow. I didn't get a bow to purposefully cheese the game, I got it to have something for ranged combat. And, I played with under 25% weight all game as well, the bow and arrow weighs very little.