The Elder Souls?

[endtherapture]

Or vice versa.

I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.

Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.

If you could use your skills to navigate your way around combat, like in New Vegas, well yeah then I'd give you that one, but Skyrim doesn't take that approach, it's just "kill everything", so logically they should make the combat better.

Or not make the combat necessary.
You can level up Speech, the game should give you more opportunities to use such skills to avoid fights.
My problem with Skyrim was that everyone wanted me dead. Random people would attack me in the wilderness for no reason. At least I can understand why they'd attack me when I've broken into their lair...

I don't think the combat is the point of the game, though. Exploration and building your character are, which is why I think it's stupid the game forces you in combat so much.

Yeah or this, I'd definitely support the New Vegasification of Skyrim, by letting you solve problems with your non combat skills. I'd say I completed most quests in NV using something other than my combat skills, and I'd love a fantasy approach to this!

The problem with TES is that there's so much combat, it's effectively the only way to complete quests/solve problems/explore, but the combat isn't particularly good. So they either need to make the combat better, or offer real alternatives to combat.

 

[Flames66]

No, not Dark Souls. One of the great things about Elder Scrolls combat it there are no (or very few) context sensitive lock on mechanics. I cannot stand having to lock on to my enemies before swinging my sword in their direction. Also, I do not want to be reliant on having a shield.

Dark Souls does not require lock on to play. Many parts its actually incredibly dangerous and foolish to use it in. And requiring a shield!? You need a shield in Skyrim for melee combat due to how awful duel wielding and two handing is, and since dodging isn't a thing. Dark Souls you never need a shield at any point unless your tanking in which case OBVIOUSLY a shield will help you tank. Lock on is ENTIRELY optional and is there simply to make one on one combat easier to aim and dodge around in.

Thanks for that. I have only seen in played by people constantly locking on.

I have (almost) never used a shield in any Elder Scrolls game. It is not required for combat and that's what I like about it.

 

[Doom972]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

 

[Phantom Kat]

Some aspects of Dark Soul's combat such as the variety of weapon animations would be good. Most of the weapons feel more or less the same in Skyrim so it'd be good if they made weapons less homogeneous such as axes/swords/maces. I'd also like to see more weapons (spears and pole-arms for example) in Skyrim.

Dodging would be useful though it doesn't work well in 1st person most of the time. Maybe something like a sidestep or backstep would be useful?

I also like how Dark Souls handles stamina and I feel it would be an improvement to skyrim's combat to have something similar (I use a mod that does this and I find it enjoyable).

The AI in Skyrim also needs some improvement as encounters seem to be pretty generic. I'd also like more in depth "boss" battles.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You say when a game cheese you, you cheese it back, and yet that is what Dark Souls is lauded so much for: It NEVER cheeses you (well ok, it cheeses you with the nearly impossible to predict the first time boulder trap in the tutorial, which in its defense, can not kill you) The game always gives the traps away in a big and obvious way, or the trap is placed in a way that anyone who has been gaming for any amount of time will subconsciously know enough about game design for them to predict it. The game can be beaten in one go, without a guide and without you ever dying if your a good gamer. It is extremely rare for a boss to use an ability or attack you could not have predicted from just looking at the boss and the arena, and all their attacks have gigantic tells. It's a completely fair game, that is what its lauded so much for being. Kinda like God Hand.

Of course, there's always those Anor Londo archers who are just bullshit. There's just little things like enemies camping corners of rooms like noobs playing a FPS so when you move in to take out the 1 or 2 enemies you see, there's that corner camping ***** that joins the fight. The fact that I can't backpedal with a shield up and not locked-on makes fighting multiple enemies much harder than it should be. I don't recall any game that when you are blocking and move backwards (regardless if there's a lock-on system or not), your character decides to turn completely around. So many times playing Dark Souls, there was an enemy around a corner and I just couldn't quite get locked-on and my character turns around and gets hit in the back instead of moving back while blocking (several times I get hit trying to back out of a room as well).

 

[Flames66]

Really? Since you cant dodge in Elder Scrolls, I always felt going melee without one was just unnecessary damage taken.

I like to role play my characters and they're usually ranger types who use a single blade. I have no interest in the damage as long as I can still survive.

And on terms of Dark Souls lock on, the only time it forces you to use lock on is if you wanna use crossbows (which are completely useless BTW) since you cant free-aim them and trying to hit enemies without lock on essentially becomes "Fire in general direction and hope for the best". Dark Souls thankfully is the kind of game that lets you use lock on, and it does legitimately help in some situations, but it definitely is not required. Hell, I saw some girl named Rainicorn on Twitch beat the entire game using Mouse and Keyboard (which had outrageously poor controls) and no lock on and then half the game again at soul level 1, so its not like its forcing you to play however you want.

Is the entire combat system lacking in free aim or just crossbows? Either way would make it pretty much unplayable for me. Also I never use a controller so if the keyboard and mouse controls are outrageously poor, the entire control system is outrageously poor.

 

[endtherapture]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

The problem is with TES than 95% of quests and problems are only solvable through combat. Less of an issue in Morrowind but as time has gone on, combat is increasingly the only option to deal with stuff, especially in Skyrim.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Firstly, if it didn't immediately turn, you would have so little control that you wouldn't be able to quickly turn and block. Secondly, if an enemy around a corner is about to attack me and I don't feel like dodging? I JUST FUCKING BLOCK HIM. If I want to move away from him and block his attacks, I turn around the moment he attacks me and block him. No enemy in the game requires so much speed that backpedaling helps, unless your being hit by so many enemies at once your fucked anyhow.

Oh and the Anor Londo archers? It gives you a very clear view of the two archers as you run up, and people still act like their arrows move instantly. That entire area is supposed to be a test of spatial awareness, being able to tell where an arrow is without being able to see the arrow. If you cant judge it by sound, your pretty stupid. Still, I easily beat the pitch black levels of Limbo, so it may just be that I really am just good at judging by sound.

What the fuck are you talking about? EVERY OTHER GAME will not turn your character backwards when you are blocking while moving back. I have no fucking problem releasing block, pressing back (to turn around), and pressing block again if I indeed what my character to turn around and block (like every other fucking game). Again, there are plenty of times I want to backpedal with a shield up and not locked-on, and Dark Souls' controls have no way of doing that. That's a fucking HUGE flaw in the control scheme.

I'm talking about enemies camping corners that you can't see, the game will tease you by letting you see 1 or 2 enemies in a room. Then you walk through the doorway to fight them moving straight ahead to engage them in combat, then some enemy that was corner camping like a ***** you couldn't see (as he would 20 or so feet directly left or right of the doorway) would hit you in the back before you even could see him. I shouldn't have to be checking my corners like I'm playing an online FPS with noobs when I'm playing a damn RPG.

It's not that you can't see the archers or avoid the arrows, it's that you have to go up to them on a narrow as shit walkway that you can easily get knocked off of. And then when you get there, one is to the right and the other to the left so when you get up there to attack one, the other one is shooting you in the back. It regarded by almost everyone (besides you) as just a cheap as shit part of the game.

I don't know why Dark Souls fans just can't see the flaws in their game; the combat system isn't nearly that good, the RPG mechanics are so unbalanced, and the game just isn't hard (it's an easy game disguised as being hard) with the boss battles being joke easy for the most part. The only good things about the game are the level design and atmosphere.

 

[Doom972]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

The problem is with TES than 95% of quests and problems are only solvable through combat. Less of an issue in Morrowind but as time has gone on, combat is increasingly the only option to deal with stuff, especially in Skyrim.

If you are referring to talking your way out of combat, that is truly rare in TES, but there are always other options like sneaking, conjuring minions to fight for you, hiring people to fight for you, running past your enemies, and creating a diversion that causes the enemies to move out of your way. Saying that you have to fight 95% of the time just isn't true.

 

[endtherapture]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

The problem is with TES than 95% of quests and problems are only solvable through combat. Less of an issue in Morrowind but as time has gone on, combat is increasingly the only option to deal with stuff, especially in Skyrim.

If you are referring to talking your way out of combat, that is truly rare in TES, but there are always other options like sneaking, conjuring minions to fight for you, hiring people to fight for you, running past your enemies, and creating a diversion that causes the enemies to move out of your way. Saying that you have to fight 95% of the time just isn't true.

In my definition of the game, summoning, and hiring help counts as combat to me, cos you're still slaughtering mooks to get through the game.

I'd rather them implement more talking options, and maybe even using your smithing and other non combat skills to get your way through the game, like maybe poisoning a bandits source of water with your alchemy skill so that you can kill them all over time and get to their loot.

 

[Doom972]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

The problem is with TES than 95% of quests and problems are only solvable through combat. Less of an issue in Morrowind but as time has gone on, combat is increasingly the only option to deal with stuff, especially in Skyrim.

If you are referring to talking your way out of combat, that is truly rare in TES, but there are always other options like sneaking, conjuring minions to fight for you, hiring people to fight for you, running past your enemies, and creating a diversion that causes the enemies to move out of your way. Saying that you have to fight 95% of the time just isn't true.

In my definition of the game, summoning, and hiring help counts as combat to me, cos you're still slaughtering mooks to get through the game.

I'd rather them implement more talking options, and maybe even using your smithing and other non combat skills to get your way through the game, like maybe poisoning a bandits source of water with your alchemy skill so that you can kill them all over time and get to their loot.

There's still sneaking and running past.

You could've left poisoned apples for enemies to eat in Oblivion, but the AI didn't always notice the apples.

 

[endtherapture]

TES is more about exploration than combat. You also have to remember that it should be possible to achieve your goals with many skill combinations that don't necessarily include combat skills.

I think that TES is on the right path, and I'd rather Bethesda keep doing their own thing, rather than copy from others.

The problem is with TES than 95% of quests and problems are only solvable through combat. Less of an issue in Morrowind but as time has gone on, combat is increasingly the only option to deal with stuff, especially in Skyrim.

If you are referring to talking your way out of combat, that is truly rare in TES, but there are always other options like sneaking, conjuring minions to fight for you, hiring people to fight for you, running past your enemies, and creating a diversion that causes the enemies to move out of your way. Saying that you have to fight 95% of the time just isn't true.

In my definition of the game, summoning, and hiring help counts as combat to me, cos you're still slaughtering mooks to get through the game.

I'd rather them implement more talking options, and maybe even using your smithing and other non combat skills to get your way through the game, like maybe poisoning a bandits source of water with your alchemy skill so that you can kill them all over time and get to their loot.

There's still sneaking and running past.

You could've left poisoned apples for enemies to eat in Oblivion, but the AI didn't always notice the apples.

Sneaking gets boring quickly when you've done a few playthroughs and running through is such horrible cheese I'd rather just hack my way through.

 

[viranimus]

This thread reminded me of a quote

Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
- Notebook, 1894
-

While I do understand the desire for this hybrid, its practical application puts me in mind of this quote raises a query. Even if you had the power why would you? Sure you could put Souls combat and mechanics into TES and hypothetically it would be an improvement in a TES game, but when viewed in light of the souls system in a TES world it would be a major degeneration compared to true Souls games.

Honestly, while giving TES games a good combat system would be a benefit, really there are so many other areas that the TES franchise is in dire need of overhauling long before even a thought of the combat system.

Other thought:
Got to wonder if one could glean any sort of insight on the question. How much weight can you put behind interpretations originating from sources that inadvertently illustrate misunderstanding of other related facets of the question. Like being able to not mistake game aspects like AI, Mechanics etc and instead using combat system as a blanket term for modes of interactivity. Or perhaps with vision to understand how games are developed and get that first person perspective would work just fine, if not enhancing Souls combat. Or even to grasp what immersion is instead of misconstruing being entertained and captivated by a game as the same thing as the sensation of feeling fully enveloped in an experience so completely that your mind does not even bother trying to establish where the fantasy ends and reality begins.

I know I have respect for the Amish and through the years have bought many things from them, but understanding their nature I also respect that my next desktop PC will not be one of them. Though it would be comical watching them try.

 

[sumanoskae]

I would welcome it, combat has always been one of TES's weaknesses and one of Dark/Demon's Souls strengths.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

Yes,its combat needs improvement. In fact,lots of aspects of The Elder Scrolls need to be improved.
What saddens me more though is not the lack in the combat department,but in character development and depth.
Up until Oblivion,the manuals of the games had a message from the developers. That their biggest goal with the series is to give us a believable virtual world as a life simulator. Combat was something you could do but didn't had to. In fact after you would have completed the first introductory dungeon then you could even live your life in their worlds,and you could even roleplay a coward that skips battles and just doesn't do quests that involve fighting...
Players could find their own things to do without having the game telling them to do them. Even though there were quite many quests that didn't involve fighting at all. Some players would decide to roleplay a botanologist. So they would venture to the wilds to seek for herbs,to then make potions and sell them.
It made sense because the old games had more depth and even something like that was rewarding.

Skyrim is an exception,a game designed with a different goal. In it all quests involve battle by one way or another, and with less depth on it,many things that would be rewarding to do in older games aren't rewrding on Skyrim.
Sure for someone who just wants hack and slash and nothing more,he will find Skyrim much better than the other games of the series. But for someone who viewed the Elder Scrolls as a world to do anything they wanted in it,the options they now have to do things are limited.