The Zero Punctuation [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/1368-Zero-Punctuation-Psychonauts] video was excellent, seems to encompass most of the points in this thread actually. I can't wait until my copy comes (2-3.99 weeks remaining!).
The Escapist Game Circle: Psychonauts
- Thread starter Russ Pitts
- Start date
Jeez, I TOLD you guys not to play the PS2 version! 
It absolutely reeks. Worst port I've ever played. StolenName and somnolentsurfer, you owe it to yourself to get the PC version. I even had problems in the exact same places as you did (especially that stupid brain tank - on the PS2, it took me an hour to beat; on the PC, five minutes). It's really like playing a totally different game.
Look, it's $20 on Steam; that's like, what, five lattes? Just do it already.
I think that the artistry in Psychonauts relies on that interactivity. If we simply viewed a painting of Boyd's suburban mindscape, or read about his arson in a book, it wouldn't be the same; it wouldn't be art. But the fact that we can actively interact with and change these environments, and through these interactions discover more information about ourselves - that's what I think elevates The Milkman Conspiracy to "art".
Let me return the question: What do you think? Does Psychonauts being a game help, hinder or make no impact on the artist's vision?
It absolutely reeks. Worst port I've ever played. StolenName and somnolentsurfer, you owe it to yourself to get the PC version. I even had problems in the exact same places as you did (especially that stupid brain tank - on the PS2, it took me an hour to beat; on the PC, five minutes). It's really like playing a totally different game. Look, it's $20 on Steam; that's like, what, five lattes? Just do it already.
I think the player is intimately involved in what would make a game like Psychonauts art, as opposed to a book or movie. Books, movies and paintings are passive experiences: The artist creates a certain artistic vision, and the audience intakes it. But games go a step further by allowing the audience to actively interact with the creative vision. (Sometimes - in the case of mods or user created content - the audience can even add to the creative vision.)
I think that the artistry in Psychonauts relies on that interactivity. If we simply viewed a painting of Boyd's suburban mindscape, or read about his arson in a book, it wouldn't be the same; it wouldn't be art. But the fact that we can actively interact with and change these environments, and through these interactions discover more information about ourselves - that's what I think elevates The Milkman Conspiracy to "art".
Let me return the question: What do you think? Does Psychonauts being a game help, hinder or make no impact on the artist's vision?
In the specific case of Psychonauts, I think that the vast majority of the artistic quality is passive. The interaction in the game is both limited and linear. Dialog trees are essentially non-existent, but is essentially all prescripted. The gameplay is very basic and has no bearing on the surrounding story or setting (which is not to say the reverse isn't true).
As such, the artistic portion of the game is entirely in the hands of the developer, and the gameplay simply sets the pacing of the story. Certainly, it does this well, but you could tell the exact same story in film and not lose anything.
With a handful of exceptions, of course. First, gameplay keeps the player entertained when the story slows down, possibly improving the quality of the piece. Second, in the Milkman Conspiracy, because the player has to take on the role of the various citizens, the player, more than at any other part of the game, becomes Raz.
The other major exception to this, is the Bull in Edgar's mind. The hatred you gain for that bull could only exist in a game.
As such, the artistic portion of the game is entirely in the hands of the developer, and the gameplay simply sets the pacing of the story. Certainly, it does this well, but you could tell the exact same story in film and not lose anything.
With a handful of exceptions, of course. First, gameplay keeps the player entertained when the story slows down, possibly improving the quality of the piece. Second, in the Milkman Conspiracy, because the player has to take on the role of the various citizens, the player, more than at any other part of the game, becomes Raz.
The other major exception to this, is the Bull in Edgar's mind. The hatred you gain for that bull could only exist in a game.
I've got a Steam press account, believe me - I've already got it and am grabbing a 360 wireless hub for the PC so I can use the controllerLara Crigger said:Jeez, I TOLD you guys not to play the PS2 version!
That's acceptable right?! haha.Games such as Psychonauts and Okami need to be played to fully appreciate their level of story telling. If this was viewed as a purely visual medium like film, Trillinon - spot on the money - that bull wouldn't be hated though we'd still be rooting for Raz. There's a certain amount of exploration that has to be done in order to fully experience the world Raz resides in - and the minds of the NPCs. For instance, if you didn't sit and patiently absorb the ramblings the Agents make you might not understand the insanity the Milkman has or his actions once Raz is done in his mind further down the track.
For some part, the removal of player control has a significant effect during the cutscenes. When the dentist is stealing brains I genuinely felt like slapping him and screaming at Raz to wake the hell up! I wouldn't have had that same experience had I been passively watching Raz previously. Even though in some films (lets say Dumb and Dumber - Jim Carey ya'll!) I felt like hitting the actors for doing ridiculously stupid things.
Not really having anything to do with the game itself, I just wanted to note that I bought the game when it came out (directly from DoubleFine, as it didn't have a publisher then where I live), and was rewarded for my faith in the game by having someone from the team draw a little smiley on the receipt, saying "Thanks"... Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Then I was blown over by the game, of course.
I'd buy the game, but for some reason the Demo on Steam decides to force-reboot my PC whenever I open it. So I'm a little apprehensive ordering it off Steam in case the full version does the same thing.
Saying that, its £5 from Play.com, and at that price it doesn't matter if it doesn't work
Saying that, its £5 from Play.com, and at that price it doesn't matter if it doesn't work
OK guys, since this is the last week of Psychonauts' tenure as our game circle game of the month, it's time to let loose. Feel free to spoil everything.
Let's start the discussion on strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths
Obviously the characters and voice acting come to mind here. I think the characters in the game existed well short of the uncanny valley, and because they were so hideous to look at, allowed them to present some truly moving emotional experiences. High drama it was not, but you couldn't help but feel for them. The writing and acting contributed greatly to this.
I think the game's second most important strength was the concept. You and the 'normal' world, and then a series of skewed altered states based on the mind of whoever you were invading at the time. I think this opened up the game to present a lot of varied experiences that wouldn't have been possible any other way, and it was on the strength of these experiences that the game went from "neat" to "must play."
Weaknesses
Level design for sure. Some of the levels were just plain impossible hard. I think play mechanic has to go in here to. yes, the game allowed for some brilliant experiences, but you also had to fight the controls or spend an unnecessary amount of time learning their nuances to succeed at all, much less become proficient. The hoverball, telekinesis and acrobatics come to mind here.
After that, I think the games greatest weakness was the overall story. Yes, the episodic writing was superb, and couldn't have been better. But I don't think the overarching whole was particularly well written. Raz's story was pretty lame, and discovering his background didn't have nearly he impact it was supposed to. After all he'd been through to that point, it made his background seem - instead of troubling or intriguing - lame.
Aside from that, the whole game had a kind of episodic feel, as if it were merely part one of a possible multi-part saga. And then it ended. And everyone had a nice G.I. Joe belly laugh and that was it. Obviously if it had performed better at retail a sequel might have alleviated that, but even when you're expecting a sequel you want episode one to feel complete.
Thoughts?
Let's start the discussion on strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths
Obviously the characters and voice acting come to mind here. I think the characters in the game existed well short of the uncanny valley, and because they were so hideous to look at, allowed them to present some truly moving emotional experiences. High drama it was not, but you couldn't help but feel for them. The writing and acting contributed greatly to this.
I think the game's second most important strength was the concept. You and the 'normal' world, and then a series of skewed altered states based on the mind of whoever you were invading at the time. I think this opened up the game to present a lot of varied experiences that wouldn't have been possible any other way, and it was on the strength of these experiences that the game went from "neat" to "must play."
Weaknesses
Level design for sure. Some of the levels were just plain impossible hard. I think play mechanic has to go in here to. yes, the game allowed for some brilliant experiences, but you also had to fight the controls or spend an unnecessary amount of time learning their nuances to succeed at all, much less become proficient. The hoverball, telekinesis and acrobatics come to mind here.
After that, I think the games greatest weakness was the overall story. Yes, the episodic writing was superb, and couldn't have been better. But I don't think the overarching whole was particularly well written. Raz's story was pretty lame, and discovering his background didn't have nearly he impact it was supposed to. After all he'd been through to that point, it made his background seem - instead of troubling or intriguing - lame.
Aside from that, the whole game had a kind of episodic feel, as if it were merely part one of a possible multi-part saga. And then it ended. And everyone had a nice G.I. Joe belly laugh and that was it. Obviously if it had performed better at retail a sequel might have alleviated that, but even when you're expecting a sequel you want episode one to feel complete.
Thoughts?
I didn't feel that the overall story was weak because there were so many substories within the game. It does a good job of having the extra plot, without burdening the player. Raz's story was one of many, and he just happened to be the lead character in terms of action. I'm playing the game through again, going out of my way to get dialogue from every character as it changes through the game. (and holy crap there is a lot there)Russ Pitts said:
I'd argue that since it's really an adventure game at heart, the point of the game is the playing around in the real(ish) world, and not the conclusion. FPS shooters usually have a sort of 'boss escalation' where every enemy encountered in order must be bigger than the one before it to match the player's rise in ability; the adventure game isn't as linear in the escalation of abilities, so the problems can stay the same with different tools available to solve it. Hmm... There's probably an near-academic paper that can be extracted from that last sentence.
Here's another thing to look at, along those lines - apparently Tim Schafer went and created Myspace pages for all the camper characters, and used the comments for each to outline the personality traits and changes for each: (links posted about halfway down the page)
http://www.lucasforums.com/archive/index.php/t-163800.html
I was entertained enough by Psychonauts and the adventure form, that I acquired Grim Fandango and I've been trying to play it - I've been having some trouble with stability, though. Next stop is probably SCUMMVM...
I've really enjoyed the game, can highly recommend it to people in the future, but it had a tendency to lose my interest when I wasn't playing it. I'm not really sure why that is.
Strengths:
- Atmosphere. NO question. Best part of the game.
- Character's have personality, and the voice acting and writing is the primary reason.
- The cohesiveness of each individual level is great, and they all have a unique feel.
- The humor present throughout the game kept me wanting to play, I think I would enjoy this game every bit as much as a spectator as I do playing it.
Weakness:
- I feel that the story was weak, not bad, just weak. It was the type of story that feels cookie cutter to me, and in the middle of a game so unique, feels a little out of place. The game does soften this blow by making fun of itself as well.
- I loved the levels in the game, but not playing them. What I mean by this is while I loved the milkman conspiracy and listening to what each person said and laughed tremendously, I hated trying to figure out where to go next, which places I had been, why did that door open now? it wasn't before, I didn't do anything etc etc. I felt... undirected, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, just isn't MY thing.
- Collecting stuff. I hate it because I feel compelled to do it. You tell me that if you get every single figment that I get a secret, and I will feel compelled to play levels to the point of frustration to achieve that end, thus ruining my fun. (It's quite stupid actually, were I able to ignore the collecting impulse, I could enjoy the game more)
Strengths:
- Atmosphere. NO question. Best part of the game.
- Character's have personality, and the voice acting and writing is the primary reason.
- The cohesiveness of each individual level is great, and they all have a unique feel.
- The humor present throughout the game kept me wanting to play, I think I would enjoy this game every bit as much as a spectator as I do playing it.
Weakness:
- I feel that the story was weak, not bad, just weak. It was the type of story that feels cookie cutter to me, and in the middle of a game so unique, feels a little out of place. The game does soften this blow by making fun of itself as well.
- I loved the levels in the game, but not playing them. What I mean by this is while I loved the milkman conspiracy and listening to what each person said and laughed tremendously, I hated trying to figure out where to go next, which places I had been, why did that door open now? it wasn't before, I didn't do anything etc etc. I felt... undirected, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, just isn't MY thing.
- Collecting stuff. I hate it because I feel compelled to do it. You tell me that if you get every single figment that I get a secret, and I will feel compelled to play levels to the point of frustration to achieve that end, thus ruining my fun. (It's quite stupid actually, were I able to ignore the collecting impulse, I could enjoy the game more)
I think I enjoyed the game more because of the collecting impulse. The wall at the Milkman Gate is kind of lame, but I got a genuine thrill from finding new arrowheads and cards, and seeing if I could reach that ledge or that tree or that roof, etc.
I agree with Tom about the levels, though. They were more fun as spectacle than experience. The Bullfighter level was frustrating as hell until the third playthrough or so, after I figured out the timing of thew acrobatics, but it was glorious to behold.
I agree with Tom about the levels, though. They were more fun as spectacle than experience. The Bullfighter level was frustrating as hell until the third playthrough or so, after I figured out the timing of thew acrobatics, but it was glorious to behold.
Oh, to squeeze in a last comment before the end of the month: there's something psychological about the end of the game, which I'll describe hopefully without spoilers - the power you have in the final battle is suspiciously representative of a transition to adulthood.
And: they cover dialogue for everything in the game - for instance, use the Brain Tumbler to enter Sascha or Milla's mind after they disappear, and the conversations you have change.
And: they cover dialogue for everything in the game - for instance, use the Brain Tumbler to enter Sascha or Milla's mind after they disappear, and the conversations you have change.
Maybe more like puberty? You can think of the bounce between giant, energy-based, Raz, and back down to pipsqueak raz, as voice squeaks and the inevitable moments when your parents are old, wizened people, (parents), and then suddenly flawed, human, adults just like you (friends, contemporaries).fupjack said:
Personally, I lack the patience to go back and talk to everyone after every mission. Once I get into the groove of the story, I have the urge to go save Lili, and not wait. I know it's a game, and (like Oblivion, ha) the world pauses in between milestones and I can mess around as much as I want. To ME, there is still an urgency to climbing that tower and saving Lili.
Strengths:
-Excellent writing
-Varied, yet consistent with the universe, levels. Not just as set pieces worth viewing, but as environments I enjoyed exploring
-Undeniably fun
Weaknesses:
-Level design in some places left me confused as to where I needed to go next, and I dislike that. Less so on my second playthrough, but that's something that you need to get right the first time.
-I did not have as much trouble with most of the platforming as most did, but I will admit that the Meat Circus was annoying. Stupid escort missions. But, the one place that I never knew what I was supposed to do was those metal grates. Because Evil Dad was menacingly floating in the middle with his juggling, I kept trying to stay on the outside, or get on the top of them and run up them quickly so I could dodge. Big mistake... Once I started just jumping to the inside, no more problems. Question to the group: Did anyone ever get caught in the rising water while they were on that last ladder? When it takes the dip back towards the water, my heart just started racing, and I wanted to know if they planned it, or if it was possible to lose even once you were on the ladder.
-(Minor annoyance) Unskippable stock animations, such as when sorting emotional baggage. They don't do new dances, just the same dance, every single time. Woooo, I sorted the handbag with the tag, everybody dance!
At least in the PC version, the stock animations were skippable by pressing the "X" key.
I have to say, this game circle thing has done wonderful things among my social group. We have all been playing Psychonauts this month, and loving it. The discussion here has been great, and the discussion among my friends has been even better.
Here's to looking forward to the next game. As far as discussion goes, I definitely intend to try and seed questions and feed even deeper discussions.
Suggestions for the next game:
Deus Ex
System Shock
Call of Duty
Anachronox
I have to say, this game circle thing has done wonderful things among my social group. We have all been playing Psychonauts this month, and loving it. The discussion here has been great, and the discussion among my friends has been even better.
Here's to looking forward to the next game. As far as discussion goes, I definitely intend to try and seed questions and feed even deeper discussions.
Suggestions for the next game:
Deus Ex
System Shock
Call of Duty
Anachronox
@Trillinon: I wish I knew about the "X" key a long time ago. That's what I get for not reading through the key-bindings more closely...
Of your three suggestions, any but Call of Duty. Having played it, I'm not sure I see much potential for discussion, but I could be wrong.
Edit: Explanation probably not required, but I meant "I'd take any of the three that aren't Call of Duty" or "Of your four...". You seemed to comprehend my halfway mumbo-jumbo just fine anyway.
Of your three suggestions, any but Call of Duty. Having played it, I'm not sure I see much potential for discussion, but I could be wrong.
Edit: Explanation probably not required, but I meant "I'd take any of the three that aren't Call of Duty" or "Of your four...". You seemed to comprehend my halfway mumbo-jumbo just fine anyway.
@Geoffrey42
Actually, I discuss Call of Duty all the time. It's a prime example of solid, well polished gameplay, pacing, and immersion. Moreover, nothing I've ever watched or read more powerfully conveyed WWII to me. That said, it's not the highest on my list of games that belong here.
@Everyone
If you didn't catch it, check out the Zero Punctuation video on Psychonauts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/1368-Zero-Punctuation-Psychonauts].
Actually, I discuss Call of Duty all the time. It's a prime example of solid, well polished gameplay, pacing, and immersion. Moreover, nothing I've ever watched or read more powerfully conveyed WWII to me. That said, it's not the highest on my list of games that belong here.
@Everyone
If you didn't catch it, check out the Zero Punctuation video on Psychonauts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/1368-Zero-Punctuation-Psychonauts].
Leaning toward Deus Ex. It's available for PC and PS2, and is easy to find used on both platforms. Plus, it's a great game with a lot of Game Circle potential. We might even be able to convince Warren to stop in and talk to us about that one.
Still thinking about it though. Expect an official announcement Monday or Tuesday, whatever we decide.
Still thinking about it though. Expect an official announcement Monday or Tuesday, whatever we decide.
You just described why I had to stop playing WindWaker. Once I found out there was treasure in the ocean, I just *had* to find it all...which, naturally, became an exercise in futility and frustration. I stopped playing shortly afterwards.TomBeraha said:
Yes, I have issues. I know.