The Escapist users and Rape

[Thaluikhain]

Okay, have I missed some high profile news story about drinking and rape, since all these threads about rape and drinking are abundant on the forum lately?

Someone posted a link to a feminist site complaining about how a campaign intended to reduce rape by telling girls not to get drunk was created. Snowballed from there.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.334108-So-according-to-some-feminists-this-anti-rape-ad-campaign-is-sexist?page=1

 

[tobi the good boy]

No means no; no matter if you're sober, drunk, high, whatever.

Agreed! But then again, yes means yes.

I'm pretty sure that sums up the whole topic and yet, no one is going to stop going on about it, they'll just keep constantly repeating posts and half arsed arguments against well thought out ones.

Anyone want to talk about puppies or something?

 

[Rhaff]

Okay, have I missed some high profile news story about drinking and rape, since all these threads about rape and drinking are abundant on the forum lately?

Someone posted a link to a feminist site complaining about how a campaign intended to reduce rape by telling girls not to get drunk was created. Snowballed from there.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.334108-So-according-to-some-feminists-this-anti-rape-ad-campaign-is-sexist?page=1

I see. This seems completely retarded, so I think im just gonna steer clear of this discussion

 

[Batou667]

You can't consent to anything when drunk.

Yes you can.

Being drunk isn't some psychedelic, hallucinogenic drug trip. Nor is it (unless you've been drinking to the point of literally poisoning yourself) a one-way trip to comatose inertness.

Being drunk might impair your ability to make sensible decisions, but you can still make decisions, and you should accept responsibility for them. If you're legally old enough to drink, then you're liable for your actions, same as any adult.

[edit] If having sex with a drunk person is rape, is taking their money theft?

Because in that case, the last nightclub I went to stole my money. So did the guy in the kebab van afterwards. I was drunk at the time and I now regret it, so I can prosecute them and get my money back, right?

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I agree with the don't have sex with drunk people but only because you risk them crying rape when it never happened.
Would I be arrested for stealing your car if you let me drive you home because you were drunk?

 

[madster11]

So... if i pick up an ugly Chick while im drunk and regret it the next day... that would be rape as well?
Seems to work the same way nobody was forced to have sex but obviously i wouldnt have done it if i was sober... so can anyone of you explain to me whats the difference?

Men can't be raped, obviously, and we're not allowed to complain when we do stupid shit while drunk like women can.

 

[The Funslinger]

-Drunk people are accountable for their actions
-If someone consented while intoxicated that means they are willful, and, if they didn't mean it, then they shouldn't have gotten drunk
-If both parties are drunk then it can't be rape because neither had a sound mental state, so no one can be blamed

1. Yes, drunk people are accountable. Get pissed and shoot someone in the face. "I was drunk" will not get you off.
2. I will assume that first one is about the anti-rape ad. In which case, we were saying "If you get drunk, you make yourself more vulnerable to having your drink spiked." not "If you get drunk, it's your fault if you have your drink spiked."
3. They gave consent. Unless the other person has been with them all night, they might not know how drunk they are. If someone is staggering about, but her friend says she has an inner ear problem, how do you know whether or not she's drunk out her tits? Or maybe some other girl can maintain control of her body when she's drunk. Again, how do you know? You pick one of these girls and find out she was drunk when she calls you a rapist.

My problem is is that if I get drunk on wine I tend to jump on the nearest male thing in the vicinity, I can hardly blame them for that in the morning can I. xD

I do try not to drink wine...but it's so tasty. :<

there's this too.
i mean, if i met her and gave her a load of wine i would consider myself taking advantage of her.
if it was her that did it, nope.

Exactly. When you go to a party, you have the right to assume (although it may be unrealistic to assume it, but bear with me) that people are at least going to be semi-responsible and know their own limits. If they're drunk, they're still responsible for their own actions. As for actively getting someone drunk to make them lower their inhibitions for you is morally reprehensible (and I'm too much of a gentleman to ever consider doing it) but not illegal.

In any case, reaching the point of inebriation where you could even be close to saying your desires would be totally warped to the point where your judgement didn't factor at least a little (which would still be a straw man argument at best) would take a fair bit of time. You'd notice if someone happened to be giving you a lot of drinks. If you don't want to wake up with him and fear that you would do so under influence, you refuse those drinks. Don't go mooching because you can and then refuse to shoulder the consequences.

Oh, and hey there, Will. I'm wearing my trilby right now!

 

[MassiveGeek]

Rape is having sex with a person against their will, sometimes using means like force to do it as well. Correct?

Then I'd have to say that if you made the concious decision to get so pissed that you'd give consent to a stranger, that is not rape, because frankly, you've given consent.

That doesn't make any sense. You consented to get drunk (and that's stupid) but you did not consent to anything else. Once you are drunk I can take all your money too then right, since you consented? Beat you up? Slash your throat? What, you consented!

Read the post properly before throwing around accusations.

I said that if you're so pissed that you would give consent to a stranger that's on you, because it is. I didn't say being drunk automatically gave consent, or at least, that's not what I fucking meant and most people with half a brain would understand that no one would agree that being drunk automatically means you can use the person as much as you want.

Fucking hell.

Read what I said. You can't consent to anything when drunk. All that person did was consent to get drunk, they didn't and couldn't consent to anything else. In a good part of the world, and morally as well in my view, you are describing rape.

Of course you fucking can. You don't lose the ability to speak when you're drunk - if a drunk chick came onto a drunk guy or vice versa, and propositioned them for sex, if they then said yes, they have given their consent. It's that simple.
We can't fucking cosset every idiot out there, if you got drunk and said yes to having sex with someone and you did, then that's all there is to it. If you, or both people regret it afterwards, then boo-fucking-hoo, it happened. Tough. Deal with it.

And fucking hell, not everyone is a decent person, and if you put yourself in a very exploitable position(like getting pissed like a ************) then you have indeed put yourself in a very exploitable position and that is something you can be, and should be, held accountable for. You can't just fucking assume everyone will think rationally(especially not if everyone's a drunk ************) and always consider the consequences. It would be amazing if that was what happened, but it's not.

 

[Darkmantle]

I said it before, I'll say it again, under your definition, I guess mutual rape happens everyday. can u imagine that case in court? both parties suing the other for rape lol.
Your definition would never hold up in a court of law, sorry, but this is modern society.

 

[Phoenix Arrow]

Eh. It's all about context really, isn't it? I've fooled around with people who were drunk, but then they were at partys where I was drunk too. So what does that mean? Did we rape each other?

When it comes down to it, if when you drink so much you agree to have sex with people you wouldn't normally have sex with, maybe you shouldn't be drinking that much? Alcohol, as far as I'm concerned, is about knowing your limits and being responsible. You have 1 or 2 drinks, you're having sex with people you're going to be ok with having sex with, if that makes sense. Drink a little more than that, you still know what you're doing when it comes down to it. You might regret, but is it enough to brand the other person a rapist? That's a very big word to put on a mistake a lot of people make once in their lives.

Having said that, there is a point when you've drunk so much you don't know what the fuck you're doing. I've had people like that force their tongue down my throat, grab me in some place and start undressing me. Even when I've been drunk too, you know that's not what should be happening. I actually know someone who's currently serving jail time for doing some weird shit with a drunk girl. Was he guilty? Abso-fucking-lutely. She's still a moron for getting that drunk in the first place, but he's worse.

 

[Uncreation]

My problem is is that if I get drunk on wine I tend to jump on the nearest male thing in the vicinity, I can hardly blame them for that in the morning can I. xD

I do try not to drink wine...but it's so tasty. :<

If that's a problem, just get drunk on something else. And yes, wine is tasty. (Damn you wine!! )

 

[anthony87]

I'm gonna take a guess and assume that the self-righteous bunch in this thread and the others like it, the ones who seem to believe that any volume of alcohol makes you a bumbling rapist magnet have never actually consumed alcohol before.

Come back when you've got some actual experience on the subject before you start tossing down those half-assed arguments from atop your high horses yeah?

 

[Robert Ewing]

So tell me escapists, why are men always responsible for this sort of scenario?

 

[BrassButtons]

Read what I said. You can't consent to anything when drunk.

So if someone gets drunk in a bar and then orders a sandwich, the waiter shouldn't consider the order valid since the person can't actually consent to buying the food?

What if this person is sober enough to realize they shouldn't be driving, and so asks their sober friend to take them. Are they able to consent to being driven home?

And if someone who gets drunk and agrees to have sex isn't responsible for that choice due to intoxication, why is someone who gets drunk and then decides to drive held responsible for that choice?

 

[OtherSideofSky]

This tangle of red tape is why, on the rare occasion I attend a party, I remain relatively sober (I have basically no tolerance, so even a glass of champagne makes me slightly tipsy) and punch anyone I think might be hitting on me until they go away. I'm autistic and can't actually recognize or participate in flirtation, so I punch a lot of people. Some people have accused this of being extreme or insane, but I think it's very important to avoid raping anyone. I think that if everyone else were to follow my example, we could avoid this whole problem entirely.

In all seriousness, as someone who physically cannot stop worrying for medical reasons (I need pills to calm down enough to sleep), the huge grey areas and potential for exploitation in these laws have basically scared me off of even trying to have sex with anyone.

Sweet jesus, fellow escapists. I thought your views on kids were bad enough, but good god, if any sort of legal counsel or law enforcement official saw any of the two popular threads on what's considered rape or not, they'd probably vomit in rage.

I don't know why you were surprised that people's views on morality do not agree exactly with the law or that most people on a gaming site are raving idiots trying on extreme moral/political stances they're too scared to express in real life. That's pretty standard for basically any internet community except for a few very small or very academic ones.

Vomiting in rage is bad for your health. They could be developing serious problems with their throats and stomach lining, so I suggest you contact a doctor immediately. I believe that it is better to deal with all the people and statements you come across with a clear head (meditation and breath control are your friends in this regard). If you allow anger to cloud your judgment just because you disagree with someone, you'll often miss opportunities to learn from others or to show them the error of their ways. Ideally, an argument should be a valuable and informative experience for both parties and keeping a level head and an open mind is the first step toward achieving that goal. I hope that if you ever do meet these officials you can help them to manage the psychological issues underlying their anger problems.

 

[Master Kuja]

So tell me escapists, why are men always responsible for this sort of scenario?

Some bullshit about a guy has to have an erection in order to facilitate sex, ergo the man must be enjoying/wanting it.
Curiously, the idea that a guy can be drugged with those little blue pills in order to have that be a non-issue is something that courts of law seem to skirt around with the elegance of an ice skating hippo.

Also, while we're on this topic for the nth fucking time.


Seriously, this could have been posted in one of the umpteen rape related threads already currently sitting on page one. Why did your not even remotely unique brand of outrage require its own thread?

 

[Pyramid Head]

Don't have sex with drunk people. Their breath is awful!
Plus one of the defining attributes of intoxication is impaired judgment, so it's easy to argue that drunken consent isn't consent because they are not in the right state of mind. Better to just stick with the sober or get consent before getting shitfaced. And i could bring up the fact that you should know your limits and stop drinking before you're liable to rise to the occasion with a total stranger, but expecting responsibility out of adults is apparently asking too much.

 

[Robert Ewing]

So tell me escapists, why are men always responsible for this sort of scenario?

Some bullshit about a guy has to have an erection in order to facilitate sex, ergo the man must be enjoying/wanting it.
Curiously, the idea that a guy can be drugged with those little blue pills in order to have that be a non-issue is something that courts of law seem to skirt around with the elegance of an ice skating hippo.

Also, while we're on this topic for the nth fucking time.


Seriously, this could have been posted in one of the umpteen rape related threads already currently sitting on page one. Why did your not even remotely unique brand of outrage require its own thread?

Hmmm... It seems to be that rather annoying trope of 'Rape is okay... If a woman does it.'

Sigh.

 

[beniki]

Sweet jesus, fellow escapists. I thought your views on kids were bad enough, but good god, if any sort of legal counsel or law enforcement official saw any of the two popular threads on what's considered rape or not, they'd probably vomit in rage.

[link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.334217-Poll-Is-it-rape-if-you-have-consensual-sex-with-a-willfully-intoxicated-person[/link]

[link]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.334108-So-according-to-some-feminists-this-anti-rape-ad-campaign-is-sexist[/link]

To sum up the majority's feelings:
-Drunk people are accountable for their actions
-If someone consented while intoxicated that means they are willful, and, if they didn't mean it, then they shouldn't have gotten drunk
-If both parties are drunk then it can't be rape because neither had a sound mental state, so no one can be blamed

First point, this one is true. Intoxication has never been a defense ever. That goes for both parties, however, and one party will usually be seen as just "the one who got drunk" while the other would be "the one who took advantage of the other". It doesn't matter if the predator was drunk, then they just drunkenly took advantage of someone.

Second, the key word here is "willful". Legally, consent is seen as a contract between two people. Consent doesn't even have to be verbally expressed. It can be implied if one of the party's actions can be construed as willful agreement. But there's that word willful again. Willful implies a mental ability to weigh the consequences of an agreement. YOU CANNOT ENTER INTO AGREEMENTS (legally) WITH PEOPLE OF AN IMPAIRED MENTAL STATE BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT SEEN BY THE LAW AS BEING "WILLFUL". I really can't stress that enough. If you go to the judge and say, "It's ok, she said yes." He's gonna reply with "Did she know that? And did she know what she said yes to? Since she's charging you with rape, I'm gonna assume the answer to both of those is no."

Finally, if both parties are drunk, rape still has occurred. We've already established that drunk people are still responsible for their actions, but it's now much harder to tell which is the perpetrator. Generally, the rapist in situations of unlawful consent would be whoever initiated sexual contact, and it's now impossible to tell who is who without further evidence. One of the parties could technically bring charges against the other, but the defense will always be, "I couldn't have consented either."

The lesson here is DON'T HAVE SEX WITH DRUNK PEOPLE UNLESS THEY CONSENT BEFORE THEY'RE DRUNK! If you find yourself constantly waking up in strange beds after getting drunk, STOP DRINKING! No one is saying that people should be running around blitzed all the time telling people they'll have sex with them without realizing there are consequences for those actions. Let's face it Escapist, drunk sex isn't even that awesome anyways.

... You realise, of course, that your argument is contradictory. You open saying drunk people are responsible for their actions, and then in the second paragraph state that (legally) they aren't.

Not that I advocate taking advantage of drunken people, I just don't like the arrogant lecture against a community I kind of like being, well, badly thought out.

 

[Kinguendo]

Whats with all the threads about rape recently? Its disturbing.