The Ethics of "Project Harpoon"

[Queen Michael]

Imagine if it was like this with illiteracy. We'd constantly say that illiterate people are ugly and unattractive, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"

That's... not entirely useful analogy, quite "apples and oranges"-ey.

Imagine seeing claims that illiterate people can function well in a modern society, that putting any pressure on them is pretty much "ableism".[footnote]It may sound extreme and unlikely, but imagine it's an over-the-top extension of (already strained) policy of accomodating various "dys-" labels. Hell, you don't really need to go over the top, just couple it with depressing effects of "cover-my-ass" attitude, second-rate skill and work ethics plus everyday-level corruption among people responsible for assigning those labels.[/footnote] Now, if your example was more like:

We'd constantly say that illiterate people are obviously retarded, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"

...then its merit would be easier to accept. Insults above are at least seemingly related to the problem, while still managing to be over-the-top and misused, even as insults.

On the other hand... imagine some idiotic campaigns like "Make *important* TV/VG characters more "normal" ie. they should be closer to near-illiteracy level of (too) many students because... representation". It's one thing with Deadwood, but popular culture embracing "sorta illiteracy, cool" in general is shooting itself in a foot, encouraging a race to the bottom. [footnote]Hey, I guess it already happeened, to some extent - at least looking at a devolution of mass-media over several decades, with internet years as Turbo Mode. Different subject, similar racing rules.[/footnote] Now, if I had to choose between a social campaign that hurls insults at illiterate people and one that normalizes their state, both would have their own shit outweighing everything else. But as a reactionary move, after the "positive" version gets at least some media traction? My bar is suddenly not that high anymore - especialy when there's little noticeable counteraction from "normal", "polite" side of society, apparently too afraid of coming out as inpolite. Kinda sucks that 4chan, of all places, gets to push that pendulum back, even if a few milimeters.

To go along with the TV character analogy, I don't think it's too much to ask that TV occasionally acknowledge that dyslexics exist.

And skipping the analogy for a while, let's be honest--there is pretty much no risk that the fat acceptance movement will actually make people ignore the health risks associated with fatness. All that it might accomplish is stuff like making people stop looking down on fat folks.

Besides, there are two possible explanations about why somebody is fat:

1. He doesn't like to excercise, and he loves fatty foods. In which case, hey, it's his life to live the way he wants, and in the end he'll die anyway. I never got the idea that dying at 90 is a much happier ending than dying at fifty, when in the long run it doesn't change anything at all.

2. He's the kind of person who can't keep a healthy weight unless he devotes literally all his time to it. Let's be honest--if this is the case, it's just not worth it.

 

[F4TK]

Reminds me a lot of the people that end up in meme pictures. Scumbag Steve, Sudden realisation guy or Overly attached girlfriend. They had photos on the net, endlessly reproduced. What can they do about it? Pretty much just roll with it.
The internet has you now.

 

[spartan231490]

If you post an image to the internet voluntarily, you have no right to cry about privacy.

As for "project harpoon" it sounds funny as fuck and I wish I'd seen it before the pages got tore down, but I'm not sure what, if anything, they actually expected to accomplish.

 

[renegade7]

proportions the average American female (ie. overweight).

Ugh, why? The "average American female" is not a body type anyone should be aspiring to, statistically speaking having the body of the average American is a risk factor for early death on par with being a smoker for your entire life (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23404873 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/). Is this supposed to be some kind of viral marketing for McDonald's, or something?

Sure, it's kind of an asshole thing to do on the part of the members of "Project Harpoon", but why give them attention by engaging with them?

 

[eberhart]

To go along with the TV character analogy, I don't think it's too much to ask that TV occasionally acknowledge that dyslexics exist.

Acknowledge that dyslexics exist - sure. That 1st world illiteracy exists - not sure about the point, but ok.

Let's make some of "cool" characters illiterate? ...er, wtf for? (Inb4 "catering to a growing audience")

Even Wired, which could easily put many things under its "showing a society as it is" umbrella, had importance of education pushed to near-comical levels, with drug kingpin as a star pupil.

And skipping the analogy for a while, let's be honest--there is pretty much no risk that the fat acceptance movement will actually make people ignore the health risks associated with fatness. All that it might accomplish is stuff like making people stop looking down on fat folks.

Oh, there's no doubt about that - both "trigger" and 4chan's reaction are waddling in a very small and shallow pond. Both are typical "1st world controversies" that have bigger impact in getting some short-term emotional reactions than in changing anything about society. All hyperbolic statements could (and should) be easily treated as "internet speak", where "I hate this shit !!1!" is a very accurate translation of "I dislike this product". As long as relative equivalence of both campaigns is remembered, there's no danger of ending up with some crazy expectations/fears.

It's obviously different for owners of those pictures, who experience it on personal level - but, on the other side, 4chan would probably find a different target or at least less conviction in their antics if "polite" side of society was seen as capable of casually refuting such small-scale bs. I can imagine it's not being seen as such for quite a while - and for, usually, good reason. I am not buying "victim blaming" either - if anything, they are not being blamed for 4channers misusing their pictures - just for their stupidity, exhibited in an expectation or even angry demand that nothing ever happens to things they post online. Doubly so for people who even got paid. Triply so for people using Internet for more than a month.

Besides, there are two possible explanations about why somebody is fat:

In all honesty, illiterate person would fit in there as well, but it's not necessarily about them anyway.

As any kind of "social activism" or even a parody of such[footnote]We can too often observe there's no solid line between those two anyway[/footnote], 4channers could simply claim it's about everybody else, those potentially affected. After all, the most entrenched people or eg. those who are simply happy in their state, offer the worst effort/effect ratio.

 

[Amaror]

proportions the average American female (ie. overweight).

Ugh, why? The "average American female" is not a body type anyone should be aspiring to, statistically speaking having the body of the average American is a risk factor for early death on par with being a smoker for your entire life (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23404873 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/). Is this supposed to be some kind of viral marketing for McDonald's, or something?

Sure, it's kind of an asshole thing to do on the part of the members of "Project Harpoon", but why give them attention by engaging with them?

I might not be thinking about the right article, but i think it was posted on a website which advocated against bulimia. It wasn't really "Hey guys and girls you should eat more fat, so you can look like this!" and more "This isn't a realistic body image and this character would normally look like this instead. So don't try to starve yourself to death in order to look like this unrealistic character.".
I have to admit it wasn't done in a particullary great way. They went a bit overboard "correcting" these various characters, exspecially for some characters like Lara Croft that have no reason why they should look like the average woman since their lifestyle is everything but average.
But the message that was meant was one i heavily aggree with and i don't think it actually was one of those "fat-acceptance" movements.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.

Also, honestly, the most I remember from the article is a couple of users here desperately trying to defend and convince people that the altered women in the article were just fine even though some of them were clearly not or dangerously overweight.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.

Take pictures of fat people and make them thin; all you have to do is google 'Project Harpoon' to see them. Honestly, the most surprising thing about them was how well done most of them were; A lot of the 'adding weight' pictures end up looking cartoonish (even when they are of video game characters), but if you saw only the altered image from many of Project Harpoon's works you would guess it was a real photo.

 

[Areloch]

Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.

Take pictures of fat people and make them thin; all you have to do is google 'Project Harpoon' to see them. Honestly, the most surprising thing about them was how well done most of them were; A lot of the 'adding weight' pictures end up looking cartoonish (even when they are of video game characters), but if you saw only the altered image from many of Project Harpoon's works you would guess it was a real photo.

Hardly surprising. One of the biggest past times on any chan is shooping.

snip

You got trolled. I was browsing /b/ when the idea for Project Harpoon was first brought up and while there were some people who saw it as a great way to express their anti-SJW, anti-feminist, anti-fat acceptance feelings. The vast majority of people just saw it as an opportunity to troll and get a rise out of people who are baited way too easily and who are way too reactionary.

Every post referencing Project Harpoon since has been along the lines of "look at [insert news organisation here], they've actually reported on our trolling, this is hilarious don't they have anything better to do."

When did people forget that the chans are largely about trolling and for the lulz when it comes to them interacting with the rest of the internet?

Occasionally, yes, there are some people that organize operations that have some actual intent behind them, but largely anything they put together is designed to get a rise out of at least one group of people.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

If you post an image to the internet voluntarily, you have no right to cry about privacy.

As for "project harpoon" it sounds funny as fuck and I wish I'd seen it before the pages got tore down, but I'm not sure what, if anything, they actually expected to accomplish.

And if you let your name or any personal details get on the internet, you have no right to cry when people use that information to get your phone number, address, email and dox you. It's great that you think that mocking people for being fat is hilarious though.

How did I find out about the page? A friend of mine had a photo of hers edited and posted on the page. She was absolutely humiliated, and I filed my own report against the page because of that. According to Facebook's own community standards, the page was unacceptable (because it featured altered images of private individuals).

Shit, I'm sorry about your friend. It's one thing to manipulate fictional characters, but to use real people as ammunition for your dig at a political campaign is just all kinds of scummy.

You got trolled. I was browsing /b/ when the idea for Project Harpoon was first brought up and while there were some people who saw it as a great way to express their anti-SJW, anti-feminist, anti-fat acceptance feelings. The vast majority of people just saw it as an opportunity to troll and get a rise out of people who are baited way too easily and who are way too reactionary.

Every post referencing Project Harpoon since has been along the lines of "look at [insert news organisation here], they've actually reported on our trolling, this is hilarious don't they have anything better to do."

It's not really harmless trolling anymore when you're using real people as a part of it. If the people who released the nude pictures of celebrities online did it with the intent of trolling, it doesn't make the fact that the world now knows what they look like naked go away. I'm sure it's all good fun to them, but it's a fair bit less for the people who get showcased for their little game.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I actually have to say, this is taking it too far.

If the images are public domain or of a public figure/character? By all means, shop away.

But private citizens? Nah. Not a good move.

You can get your point across with more readily justifiable targets, easily, but this is a simple matter of not being a dick and making things unnecessarily 'personal.' Which, I know, is difficult for some people online to grasp, yet it should still be mentioned from time to time if only to say that, yes, we've broached the subject.

With that said...it's 4chan. I both love and hate them for stupid stuff like this.

Makes the internet a more interesting place to be.

 

[Lictor Face]

If the only thing getting hurt from this Project Harpoons are egos and feelings. I don't see the fuss.

People, adults especially, should know by now how to ignore people who say mean things to them.

If the fat people want to campaign on their rights to be obese and unhealthy, I'd say let them. If the chains want to mess around and do nothing other than piss off hotheads, I'd say let them too.

Nothing important was gained, and certainly nothing of value was lost.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Since when has /b/ ever cared if their trolling was harmless or not?
In any case this is hardly the same as people stealing private property. It's people taking already public property and changing it.

Oh I know they don't give the slightest damn. I'm just saying that passing it off as "This is just trolling, getting riled up is what they want you to do" only works if the only damage caused is people being riled up. The comparison I was going for in the analogy wasn't that they're both stealing something private, but that they both have an effect irrespective of whether people get upset about it. Not getting upset about it doesn't make it any less humiliating for the people they targeted, and that more than anything else is what I think is the issue.

EDIT: Also, this is just my experience, but everyone I know who does racist things just to get a rise out of people is exceptionally racist in reality. The last person who liked to make those jokes went on and on for a half an hour in a Tim Hortons commenting about how the "Chinks" across the street must be running a cocaine ring, and publicly refers to any middle-eastern person as towel heads (all of this loudly "whispered" in front of middle-eastern and chinese people). The person before that was calling every asian person on the bus "Japan" including the guy who specified they were from Korea, and asking them if they were all related.

With people like that, at worst they're racist, at best they're complete assholes. Neither are particularly favorable in my opinion. I'm not saying this is racism, but its the same in the sense of "saying offensive things to get a rise out of people"

 

[jklinders]

Main problem here is, what counts as a fat activist?

First there's the clear cases. The people who insist that any medical professionals saying that fatness is unhealthy are just part of a conspiracy. The wackos.

But then there's people who just don't want to get bullied for their weight. That's the problem here--you're labeled a "fat activist" if you're fat and like your looks. Your only options are disliking your looks or being called a fat activist. You post a photo of yourself on Facebook? That means you're "promoting obesity." Ridiculous, of course.

"But being fat isn't good for you!" So? Nobody denied that. Apart from a few extremists--like you get in any movement--most fat activists wouldn't have had a problem in the first place if we focused on the health aspects. The problem is that when fat people don't bother to excercise and eat healthy--which they have no obligation to anybody to do--they get told they're ugly.

Imagine if it was like this with illiteracy. We'd constantly say that illiterate people are ugly and unattractive, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"

Look, fat activists aren't saying that you should try to be fat. What they're saying is that people who are fat aren't automatically ugly. And that you shouldn't get harassed for your weight.

Once again: If people had actually kept it to health issues we wouldn't have had a problem in the first place. But it seems like 9 out of 10 comments on fat people are about them being ugly, which has nothing to do with health issues.

On-topic, I'd say this isn't an okay thing to do. Don't manipulate pictures of strangers and make them public. That's kind of obvious. And come on... "Prject Harpoon?" Whaling reference when you're talking about fat people. Tasteful, guys.

I pretty much fully and wholeheartedly agree with the above. I guarantee the chans are not doing this to promote healthy living like those trollish punks are claiming. they are simply taking pot shots at a demographic that they see as fair game. Everyone takes potshots at the overweight.

And like you said, the name of their event says it all. this is just professional trolls being professional trolls. Legal or not has nothing to do with it. It's all about intent. They have ill intent here and are therefore assholes. Therefore they should be seen as such.

 

[Sanderpower]

I never said they should be free to do as they please. That doesn't mean they will face consequences and it's silly to think that they will. Also your comparisons are just...laughable and are not in any way the same thing. You're comparing rape to having photos online edited.

I should make it clear that I'm not saying humiliating edited photos are on par with rape. Rather, it's comparable because of victim blaming. "If you don't want people to do (bad thing X), don't do (completely acceptable thing Y)".

It's less victim blaming and more "You know this shit happens in reality and you know the people responsible are rarely made to face the consequences, so why are you expecting something different all of a sudden?"

So somebody who puts a picture online should expect random strangers to begin sharing said picture? Okay fair enough, but that doesn't mean that the people who are taking the pictures are in the right. There is a huge difference in "expecting something" and "accepting something". You can expect people to not give a rat's ass about other people's privacy online, however that doesn't mean it should be accepted.

 

[Neonsilver]

So 4chan started a reactionary movement called "Project Harpoon". This was a response to photoshopped images of female video game characters, designed to have the proportions of the average American female (ie. overweight). The response was a campaign to photoshop overweight people who used social media, whether they were professional or amateur models, or even members of the public who had the audacity to post a selfie to Facebook or Twitter.

The project's Facebook and Instagram pages were taken down after numerous reports, and as usual they've cried censorship. While the original set of images, as well as similar fat-advocacy campaigns are tasteless and insulting, I believe "Project Harpoon" have fought fire with napalm here. I don't even believe that fat-shaming is the issue, but rather an invasion of people's privacy. As much as "Project Harpoon" claim to want to advocate "healthiness", they were clearly seeking to provoke.

When an anti-SJW page I followed posted about it, I expressed my thoughts about the invasion of privacy. The responses I got were... troubling. I was called an SJW and a shill of course, but what bothered me was how privacy wasn't an issue with anyone. In fact, I was told that "if you don't want your photos edited, don't post your photos on the internet". Actually, the responses to many news articles about the page expressed a complete lack of concern for privacy.

How did I find out about the page? A friend of mine had a photo of hers edited and posted on the page. She was absolutely humiliated, and I filed my own report against the page because of that. According to Facebook's own community standards, the page was unacceptable (because it featured altered images of private individuals).

So what do you think? Did "Project Harpoon" have the right to do what they did? Was it a valid response to fat-positive feminist campaigns?

In regards to the privacy issue, I don't think anyone has much right to complain if they upload pictures and make them available for everyone.

In regards to the original videogame character pictures and project harpoon, the only difference I see, is that the videogame characters can't complain about being used like this. I don't see much of a message in either sets of pictures.

 

[Qizx]

So 4chan started a reactionary movement called "Project Harpoon". This was a response to photoshopped images of female video game characters, designed to have the proportions of the average American female (ie. overweight). The response was a campaign to photoshop overweight people who used social media, whether they were professional or amateur models, or even members of the public who had the audacity to post a selfie to Facebook or Twitter.

The project's Facebook and Instagram pages were taken down after numerous reports, and as usual they've cried censorship. While the original set of images, as well as similar fat-advocacy campaigns are tasteless and insulting, I believe "Project Harpoon" have fought fire with napalm here. I don't even believe that fat-shaming is the issue, but rather an invasion of people's privacy. As much as "Project Harpoon" claim to want to advocate "healthiness", they were clearly seeking to provoke.

When an anti-SJW page I followed posted about it, I expressed my thoughts about the invasion of privacy. The responses I got were... troubling. I was called an SJW and a shill of course, but what bothered me was how privacy wasn't an issue with anyone. In fact, I was told that "if you don't want your photos edited, don't post your photos on the internet". Actually, the responses to many news articles about the page expressed a complete lack of concern for privacy.

How did I find out about the page? A friend of mine had a photo of hers edited and posted on the page. She was absolutely humiliated, and I filed my own report against the page because of that. According to Facebook's own community standards, the page was unacceptable (because it featured altered images of private individuals).

So what do you think? Did "Project Harpoon" have the right to do what they did? Was it a valid response to fat-positive feminist campaigns?

Well the argument "don't post your photos online if you want privacy" is kinda a solid arguement. Once you're out there online it's not that easy to keep it entirely private for all. There's concern for privacy, then there's the reality of privacy on the internet.

Also fuck fat advocacy, if a bunch of lazy fucks want to take pride in their overweight joy then be my guest. But don't start hating and then warping images of people who put the effort in to take care of their bodies because you're a lazy ****.

I agree with not posting photos of yourself on the internet if you're gonna get really upset when random wankers mess with it. Once you give out your photo, it's up to whoever you've given it to in order to be a custodian. If I gave my photo out to people on the street I would fully expect at least a few people to draw dicks on them, or worse.

 

[Quellist]

Nah, IMO it was cruelty and trolling, plain and simple. The hateful remarks that accompanied those pictures were frequently worse than the pictures themselves.

Also they never photoshopped the breasts smaller for some reason...

 

[chikusho]

It's like the difference between telling somebody she's an ugly cow and telling your friend, in private, that this fat girl you saw was ugly.

More like the difference between telling somebody she's an ugly cow and plastering a doctored, embarrassing photograph along highways and bus stops to encourage everyone to publicly mock the person from a safe distance.

OT: This thing, like all similar efforts that came before it, are nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse to be dipshits for sadistic reasons.

 

[madster11]

I can't believe a thread with a few dickheads posting some really badly photoshopped images has managed to make the entire world mad so successfully.

Actually makes me very worried about the new stock market crashing thing that's going on over there, i initially wrote it off as hopeless but now...