The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

SilentPony

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Not really, Antman just tells people where he was, and the time travel is just something they pull out of their asses for the movie. It's all technobabble anyway.
Are you seriously complaining about plot elements seemingly being pulled from nowhere, while also bragging about skipping 50% of the plots?
Yeah time travel in Endgame is out of nowhere, if you didn't watch Antman and the Wasp and hear their conversations about time travel being theoretically possible.

Its like complaining Iron Man 2 does a shit job explaining how Tony got his suits and that thing in his chest, while bragging having not seen Iron Man 1.
 

Buyetyen

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Not really, Antman just tells people where he was, and the time travel is just something they pull out of their asses for the movie. It's all technobabble anyway.
"Yo, I just watched this Return of the King movie everybody says was so good. Skipped the first 2 though. Who is this Frodo guy and why are we supposed to care about his jewelry?"
 

Johnny Novgorod

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"Yo, I just watched this Return of the King movie everybody says was so good. Skipped the first 2 though. Who is this Frodo guy and why are we supposed to care about his jewelry?"
Your analogy doesn't work.

I said it doesn't matter in the MCU, where half the movies are just spinning wheels and filling time in between the relevant ones.

The Lord of the Rings is a cohesive work of literature adapted into a cohesive movie trilogy all shot at the same time by the same director.

To give you an example you might understand, you can watch Episodes 7-8-9 of Disney Star Wars while skipping Rogue One/Solo.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Are you seriously complaining about plot elements seemingly being pulled from nowhere, while also bragging about skipping 50% of the plots?
Nope.

Yeah time travel in Endgame is out of nowhere, if you didn't watch Antman and the Wasp and hear their conversations about time travel being theoretically possible.
They have the same conversation at the beginning of Endgame again. Antman 2 is a bathroom break movie.
 

SilentPony

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Nope.



They have the same conversation at the beginning of Endgame again. Antman 2 is a bathroom break movie.
Yes in the same way Avengers called Tony Stark Iron Man. Technically that's the end result of Iron Man 1, but skipping it doesn't mean the plots and stories are meaningless. I mean I hope you don't think you've proven you understand the MCU by skipping 50% of it. Unless your argument is that its all made up, so why bother watching in the first place?
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Yes in the same way Avengers called Tony Stark Iron Man. Technically that's the end result of Iron Man 1, but skipping it doesn't mean the plots and stories are meaningless. I mean I hope you don't think you've proven you understand the MCU by skipping 50% of it. Unless your argument is that its all made up, so why bother watching in the first place?
You could lose a few and it wouldn't make a difference. I don't know if a strict 50%. But do I think that all 23 movies/31 seasons across 14 TV series of the MCU are crucial to understanding movie 24 or series 15? I don't think you do.

Falcon and WS isn't gonna say or do anything that would alienate the people who only follow the movies. Disney didn't build the biggest money machine in movie history by splitting their audiences with streaming services or making it hard for the widest possible demographic to keep up with their dumb plucked-from-a-children's-comic-book plots.
 

thebobmaster

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Will it be impossible to only follow the movies and still understand what's going on? Probably not, but you will almost certainly lose context for some things. I can feel comfortable saying this, because it actually has already happened in the MCU with one character: Countess Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, as played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus.

You see, her introduction to us, the audience, seems a bit overdramatic for a brand-new character. You hear heels clicking, and then the camera slowly pans over to show...someone we've never seen before, almost as if they are showing off "Look kids, it's Julia Louis-Dreyfus!" *applause*

The reason for that dramatic reveal? Originally, Black Widow was going to be our introduction to Val, and her appearance in FATWS would have been an actual reveal for the character. Without that little detail, the reveal just loses some of its impact. Does it make it impossible to figure out who she is? No, because she introduces herself, but a fair bit of context and impact is lost compared to the original plans.
 

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So, has anyone watched the show yet? What did you think?
I've seen the first three episodes. Can't say I'm impressed.

The intro flight/fight is great, but the characters come off as lacking, or at least, their motivations do.

Walker as Cap makes little sense. I get the idea of a symbol, but FFS John, if you're going to go out in the field, bring a gun, for crying out loud. When you see him alongside armed soldiers, or operating just with Lamar, it's just, well, silly. Steve at least had the excuse of being super-human, but this guy should be dead already because he isn't even bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Sam's a mercenary now? Um, okay...and how are he and Bucky paying for their globe-trotting adventures? Even before meeting Zemo, they have to get to Germany somehow. I can't help but wonder if the money Sam spent getting there could have been better spent on Sarah. And if he's a mercenary for the USAF, it seems astounding to me that he couldn't wrangle up the cash to fix the boat (or she refuses? Christ, I can't even remember).

The worldbuilding also makes no sense. I get that The Blip would make things difficult for people (see Far From Home), but trigger a refugee crisis? Um, how? I assume most people blipped out were within their own countries, so while there might be a housing/employment crisis within countries, how does this transfer to a refuee crisis? If I lose my job and become homeless, that sucks, but it doesn't make me a refugee. There's vague references to borders shifting, but there's not enough detail to really explain the situation, and the "camp" I've seen so far is simply an urban area in Latvia. The result of this is that the Flag Smashers make no sense, or at least, there's so little context to their actions I can't like or dislike them, because things are so bad. The GRC is apparently evil because...um...treating refugees is bad? I mean, of course that's bad, but there's nothing in-universe that should have led to a refugee crisis in the first place.
 

Gordon_4

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I've seen the first three episodes. Can't say I'm impressed.

The intro flight/fight is great, but the characters come off as lacking, or at least, their motivations do.

Walker as Cap makes little sense. I get the idea of a symbol, but FFS John, if you're going to go out in the field, bring a gun, for crying out loud. When you see him alongside armed soldiers, or operating just with Lamar, it's just, well, silly. Steve at least had the excuse of being super-human, but this guy should be dead already because he isn't even bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Sam's a mercenary now? Um, okay...and how are he and Bucky paying for their globe-trotting adventures? Even before meeting Zemo, they have to get to Germany somehow. I can't help but wonder if the money Sam spent getting there could have been better spent on Sarah. And if he's a mercenary for the USAF, it seems astounding to me that he couldn't wrangle up the cash to fix the boat (or she refuses? Christ, I can't even remember).

The worldbuilding also makes no sense. I get that The Blip would make things difficult for people (see Far From Home), but trigger a refugee crisis? Um, how? I assume most people blipped out were within their own countries, so while there might be a housing/employment crisis within countries, how does this transfer to a refuee crisis? If I lose my job and become homeless, that sucks, but it doesn't make me a refugee. There's vague references to borders shifting, but there's not enough detail to really explain the situation, and the "camp" I've seen so far is simply an urban area in Latvia. The result of this is that the Flag Smashers make no sense, or at least, there's so little context to their actions I can't like or dislike them, because things are so bad. The GRC is apparently evil because...um...treating refugees is bad? I mean, of course that's bad, but there's nothing in-universe that should have led to a refugee crisis in the first place.
Its created a refugee crisis because in the five years since the Snap, borders got softer or were redrawn to allow easier crossings so countries with space and infrastructure but limited people could accept immigration. And communities took root after that movement - and we humans can move when we need to - but suddenly when everyone came back it was like the India-Pakistan partition writ world wide.
 

thebobmaster

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In addition to what Gordon said, there's also the issue that literally half of the world disappeared for 5 years. That's plenty of time for homes to be demolished, moved into, etc., and then all of the sudden, half of the world shows back up, having had no time lost for them, suddenly displaced.
 

Gordon_4

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The one thing that was never made clear to me - in the movies or the show - is just where that 50% loss was felt. Like I doubt Thanos drilled it down so every nation lost exactly half of its population or an appropriate percentage compared to density. The United States might have only lost one to two million people. China might have lost one billion. Australia could have lost three. Tonga could have been completely wiped out.

Based on the locations on the show, I’m guessing Eastern Europe got hit really hard.
 
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Hawki

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As an aside, it made me wonder if there's something like the Blackdel test (yes, that's a pun on Bechdel), which you pass by having two black characters talk about something that's not white people. When I started thinking about it, I couldn't name many major movies or series that would actually pass such a test.
It exists in some form, it's the DuVernay Test or the Kent Test, even if these haven't entered linguo to the same extent.

To be frank, plenty of films and TV series would pass such a test. For shits and giggles, looking at my 'IP list,' I could get 20-40 entries alone, depending on how strict I was being with the criteria.

I don't really understand how they got the flag smashers so wrong. With many current world problems like nationalism and refugee crises being solved only to be kinda maliciously brought back one the Blip was stopped they should be way more sympathetic then they currently are. There's even a scene of UN diplomats maliciously conspiring to force back migrants they previously accepted, by force of need be and I still feel very little for Karli and co.

No one seems to think the Flag Smashers are very likable or interesting, yet with their motivations and the world building surrounding it should have been incredibly easy to make them well received.
Having now watched four episodes, to be frank, I'm completely blase about the Flag Smashers.

If we want to look at real-world parallels, we've long been at the point where the MCU simply can't be considered our world. And if we look at things from an in-universe perspective, the actual logistics have been so poorly explained up to this point, that all we have is the Flag Smashers' word that "bad things are happening."

Show, don't tell.

So my take away is that if you're a terrorist with a sympathetic cause you should try to commit terrorist acts because eventually someone will see reason and you'll get what you want. Seriously, Karli might have been a nice girl and her cause righteous but are we really going to ignore the fact that she killed people? And intended to kill many more?
Can I just point out that the world's intelligence agencies must be totally incompetent if they can't find Karli as she walks the streets in Riga? FFS, Osama Bin Laden at least had the sense to stay hidden in Pakistan.

But yeah, so far, it's hard to root for Karli. She makes vague references to making the world better, and can kill people to do so, but the stakes and worldbuilding has been so vague so far, it's hard to get invested.

Your analogy doesn't work.

I said it doesn't matter in the MCU, where half the movies are just spinning wheels and filling time in between the relevant ones.

The Lord of the Rings is a cohesive work of literature adapted into a cohesive movie trilogy all shot at the same time by the same director.

To give you an example you might understand, you can watch Episodes 7-8-9 of Disney Star Wars while skipping Rogue One/Solo.
I dunno. If anything, the MCU is too interconnected at points.

For instance, you can watch Iron Man 1/2 back to back, but can't watch Iron Man 3 without watching The Avengers. Similarly, you can watch Captain America 1 & 2, but can't watch Civil War without watching both Avengers movies. Not without missing out on a lot of context.
 

Hawki

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Its created a refugee crisis because in the five years since the Snap, borders got softer or were redrawn to allow easier crossings so countries with space and infrastructure but limited people could accept immigration. And communities took root after that movement - and we humans can move when we need to - but suddenly when everyone came back it was like the India-Pakistan partition writ world wide.
Technically true, but none of what you described actually makes sense when you think about it.

First, Thanos wiped out 50% of the human race. Maybe some countries lost more than others, but if so, there's nothing to suggest that's the case, nor that some demographics were affected more than others. So if 50% of the world's population was blipped out, there's no reason why anything should actually change, because the demographics would remain the same the world over.

Second, even if that was the case, you don't need to redraw borders to accomodate refugees or immigration. The Pakistan-India partition thing doesn't work as an analogy here, because the flows of refugees in both directions came as a result of the border being drawn, not vice versa. But even assuming that borders were redrawn, how? There hasn't been a single map displayed so far with the exception of Libya/Tunisia, and as far as I can tell, the border remains in place. And if new countries have sprung up, we haven't seen any evidence of it. There's a line of flags in the GRC ad, and unless I missed something, all of them are real-world countries.

Third, so far, the only 'refugee camp' (to call it a "camp" is frankly rediculous, since it's a small corner of Riga) is in Latvia. I'll concede that the MCU isn't our world, but referencing our world for a bit, Latvia is part of the EU, and the EU is pretty liberal when it comes to freedom of movement within its borders. So, let's say that after the Blip, for whatever reason, a bunch of people move into Latvia. What's the holdup in them moving out? If the EU doesn't function like our world, or the borders have gone haywire, or anything else, the show has so far done nothing to actually explain it.

The Blip would absolutely cause issues in society, but those issues, I'd have thought, would be within nations, not between nations (losing your house, your job, etc.) I imagine that when most people blipped, they were within their original countries.

Now, I get why the show has done this - you only have to type in "refugee crisis" in Google to get your answer. Problem is, none of the stuff I've seen so far makes any sense. We get vague references to refugees, and camps, and the GRC, and redrawn borders, but we've been "told" all that, not "shown" it. The show doesn't get a pass just because it tries to engage with real-world issues, if anything, it's harmed by it, because the analogy doesn't work, and as worldbuilding, it doesn't work either.

The one thing that was never made clear to me - in the movies or the show - is just where that 50% loss was felt. Like I doubt Thanos drilled it down so every nation lost exactly half of its population or an appropriate percentage compared to density. The United States might have only lost one to two million people. China might have lost one billion. Australia could have lost three. Tonga could have been completely wiped out.

Based on the locations on the show, I’m guessing Eastern Europe got hit really hard.
All possible, but again, the show doesn't explain any of it.
 

Bob_McMillan

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First, Thanos wiped out 50% of the human race. So if 50% of the world's population was blipped out, there's no reason why anything should actually change, because the demographics would remain the same the world over.
The snap was pretty much the apocalypse though. Planes falling out of the sky, no more electricity, no more internet. For a while at least. That's pretty much what I'm envisioning, maybe a year or two of post-apocalyptic living. Even after the five years, the world still looks like it ended in Endgame. I don't think its farfetched to see the remaining 50% clustering together in less affected areas, hence the immigration. I'd imagine there would be a lot of people travelling all over the world in general, trying to find out what happened to their loved ones and reuniting with them, maybe settling down somewhere new. You could bet your ass that I wouldn't be staying in my shithole of a country after the Snap, it would get all Mad Max in an instant.
Second, even if that was the case, you don't need to redraw borders to accomodate refugees or immigration.
I'm pretty sure that was just a figure of speech. What are borders worth when the world has just ended? The government was in shambles, who would be controlling the entry of refugees and immigrants? People were just freely moving between countries for five years. That's a lot of time to get used to something enough for you to be angry that's its being taken away.
So, let's say that after the Blip, for whatever reason, a bunch of people move into Latvia. What's the holdup in them moving out?
There was no hold up, which I think was the point. These people made new lives for themselves in the five years and now the governments of the world just want them gone. You just spent five years making a place your own, only to be told to fuck off so some rando can enjoy everything you've worked to rebuild.

I agree that the show didn't do enough to highlight or explain the post Snap and Blip world, but I don't get why you see this immigration thing as so illogical.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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I dunno. If anything, the MCU is too interconnected at points.

For instance, you can watch Iron Man 1/2 back to back, but can't watch Iron Man 3 without watching The Avengers. Similarly, you can watch Captain America 1 & 2, but can't watch Civil War without watching both Avengers movies. Not without missing out on a lot of context.
The context is always obvious. These aren't movies that thrive on subtlety or ambiguity, or there wouldn't be 23 of them. The trick is to make you feel the next one is always super important in the development of the series, Sunk Cost Fallacy style.
 

Hawki

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The snap was pretty much the apocalypse though. Planes falling out of the sky, no more electricity, no more internet. For a while at least. That's pretty much what I'm envisioning, maybe a year or two of post-apocalyptic living. Even after the five years, the world still looks like it ended in Endgame. I don't think its farfetched to see the remaining 50% clustering together in less affected areas, hence the immigration. I'd imagine there would be a lot of people travelling all over the world in general, trying to find out what happened to their loved ones and reuniting with them, maybe settling down somewhere new. You could bet your ass that I wouldn't be staying in my shithole of a country after the Snap, it would get all Mad Max in an instant.
You're right that immediately after the Snap, a lot of things would start going wrong in the way you describe. However, you're describing things on a global level. Everything is going to go bad, everywhere. Maybe worse in some places than others (e.g. if you look at modern plane routes, Europe and Asia are heavily covered compared to Africa, so they'd have more planes falling), but if you're referencing Mad Max, Mad Max is the whole world going bad. It's pointless to try and immigrate because you're exchanging one shitty area for another shitty area.

If we're talking about stuff like a lack of electricity, or vehicle destruction, yes, some countries would be more affected than others - losing electricity doesn't matter if you never had electricity to begin with (see many regions of sub-Saharan Africa). So in theory, some regions of the world might want workers to help them out. However, those same regions would have had a 50% loss in population as well. Sad reality is is that this would likely open up opportunities for the survivours, such as being able to haggle for better wages. There's historical precedent for this (see the Black Death), and real-world precedent for this - want to know why sweatshops can pay Bangladeshis so little, even if it's still better pay than what they'd get in other jobs? Because if you don't want to work in a sweatshop, there's plenty of people who can take your place. Don't think I'm arguing that wages shouldn't be higher, but if your choice is immigrating to a wealthier country, or taking stock of a sudden surge in opportunities in your own country, I'm not sure if that would be such a clear-cut choice.

Of course, this is debating the semantics of a fictional setting, but of what the fictional setting itself has provided, society was functioning normally in Endgame and in Far From Home. Even if both reference the effects of the Blip, society itself is functioning the same way it was originally. And even in the show itself (based on what I've seen), society clearly hasn't collapsed a year on from the Blip. Sam may have difficulty getting a bank loan because so many people are similarly applying for loans, but things seem normal everywhere.

I'm pretty sure that was just a figure of speech. What are borders worth when the world has just ended? The government was in shambles, who would be controlling the entry of refugees and immigrants? People were just freely moving between countries for five years. That's a lot of time to get used to something enough for you to be angry that's its being taken away.
Well, from an in-universe perspective, we already know that governments didn't collapse. Going by Endgame, governments were able to quickly deduce what had happened (Black Widow says towards the start of the film that the world's governments are conducting a census, and have deduced that about 50% of the world's population would have been lost). Even then, if a government loses 50% members of its staff, that sucks, but you've got 50% fewer people to actually govern. Similarly, if we're talking about border control, you may lose 50% of your border guards, but the no. of people you're trying to keep out has dropped by 50% as well.

If some areas of the world were worse affected than others, then yes, there'd be migrant flows of some kind, but so far, there's been nothing to suggest that.

There was no hold up, which I think was the point. These people made new lives for themselves in the five years and now the governments of the world just want them gone. You just spent five years making a place your own, only to be told to fuck off so some rando can enjoy everything you've worked to rebuild.
There's actually a way the show could have handled this, and a precedent was set in Far From Home, where it's established that the Blip led to an upsurge in homelessness and other similar issues. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the Blip would logically lead to issues within countries, but it doesn't make sense that it would lead to issues between countries as far as refugee flows go.

Thing is, there's a morally ambiguous case here. Say the Blip occurred, and I was blipped out. In the five years, someone moves into my house. I then blip back, and find these randos in what was "my" house five years ago, but is now theirs. Who has ownership of the dwelling? You can make a moral case for either side. However, at least so far, the show hasn't done that. If people move in from one country to another to make up for a fall in population, and five years later that population comes back, who has right of residence? Again, you could make an argument for either side, but the show hasn't engaged in that argument. If anything, it takes the opposite approach that Far From Home did. Which is fine, different people can stamp different takes on a shared universe, but I find FFH a much more realistic take (if anything about the Blip could be called realistic). FFH highlights stuff like losing one's home and family. FWS tries to show a refugee crisis, without actually showing us much of it, or explaining much of anything.

Also, this is arguably beside the point, but if we assume the Latvia of the MCU is the same as the Latvia of the real-world, I'm not sure that's the best example to use. Latvia's population today is in steep decline, so if anything, it would be more likely to welcome migrants than cast them out at the drop of a hat. Or, back to my EU comment, travel between the EU is very easy. Travelling into the EU is another matter (see the Mediteranean for instance), but all the refugees we see seem to be European in ancestry.

I agree that the show didn't do enough to highlight or explain the post Snap and Blip world, but I don't get why you see this immigration thing as so illogical.
Again, basically because the 50% drop would presumably be universal, and when similar population crashes have occurred, it hasn't led to mass exoduses. The Black Plague wiped out 60% of Europe's population for instance, it didn't lead to a resetting of borders, and exoduses occurred within countries rather than between countries. Similarly, if you look at the Americas, 90% of the Amerindian population crashed due to disease, but that in of itself wasn't the reason for loss of land. The Trail of Tears didn't occur because of a population crash for instance, it came because of a land grab. The population crashes allowed displacement from land, it wasn't the reason in of itself.

Also, even from an in-universe perspective, the idea of a refugee crisis doesn't really sync with Endgame or Far From Home. In Endgame, there's no mention of anything that FWS describes in terms of people moving, or borders moving. In FFH, Peter and co. can travel Europe without issue, and there's no evidence of any displaced population. So no matter how you look at FWS, from an in-universe or out-universe perspective, its worldbuilding comes up short.
 

Hawki

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The context is always obvious. These aren't movies that thrive on subtlety or ambiguity, or there wouldn't be 23 of them. The trick is to make you feel the next one is always super important in the development of the series, Sunk Cost Fallacy style.
Um, not really.

If I watch Iron Man 1, 2, 3, then I'd be left wondering what the heck happened in New York for instance, and why Tony's so torn up over it.

Similarly, if I only watched Captain America movies, I could get to Civil War and ask "wait, who the heck are these people?"

I could piece stuff together, maybe, but the linkage is still there.
 

SilentPony

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Its created a refugee crisis because in the five years since the Snap, borders got softer or were redrawn to allow easier crossings so countries with space and infrastructure but limited people could accept immigration. And communities took root after that movement - and we humans can move when we need to - but suddenly when everyone came back it was like the India-Pakistan partition writ world wide.
Not just that. Imagine being in your shower, getting snapped away, getting snapped back. Its been 5 seconds for you. You have no idea what happened. You get out of the shower, there is a completely strange family in your house, they bought 4 years ago, a year after you died, the banks closed all your accounts, all your stuff is donated, or sold, or repurposed, your car is gone, your job is gone, half your family said their goodbyes 5 years ago, including your SO, your pet may be gone/dead, you're naked, and now you're technically tresspassing on someone else's property.

Now multiply that by 3.5 billion.

I can see there being a LOT of problems.
 

Hawki

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Not just that. Imagine being in your shower, getting snapped away, getting snapped back. Its been 5 seconds for you. You have no idea what happened. You get out of the shower, there is a completely strange family in your house, they bought 4 years ago, a year after you died, the banks closed all your accounts, all your stuff is donated, or sold, or repurposed, your car is gone, your job is gone, half your family said their goodbyes 5 years ago, including your SO, your pet may be gone/dead, you're naked, and now you're technically tresspassing on someone else's property.

Now multiply that by 3.5 billion.

I can see there being a LOT of problems.
All true, and we know it's true because of Far From Home. But what you're describing would lead to issues within countries more than between countries. Maybe some people would be outside their home countries when blipped, but they'd be the exception rather than the rule.
 

SilentPony

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All true, and we know it's true because of Far From Home. But what you're describing would lead to issues within countries more than between countries. Maybe some people would be outside their home countries when blipped, but they'd be the exception rather than the rule.
And everyone who was in the air on planes. I think the figure is that at any given time there are a million people in the skies. And everyone who was on a boat. Or in a car and just appearing on a major highway.

Yeah even if Endgame brought everyone back, several million of them died immediately upon returning.