The Future of the Health Bar
- Thread starter Felstaff
- Start date
Exactly. I'd love to see a melee combat game thats really done properly. They always seem to use the same gameplay mechanics that they were using back in the official Lord of the Rings games, the first games I played in this genre.Phlakes said:
I think one of my favorite authors sums up my feelings on this perfectly.
?Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.?
― Grant Morrison, Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us about Being Human
I enjoy fighting dragons.
Also, Heavy Rain didn't seem to have a health bar, but it was more interactive story. And you died. Or didn't have a finger anymore.
?Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.?
― Grant Morrison, Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us about Being Human
I enjoy fighting dragons.
Also, Heavy Rain didn't seem to have a health bar, but it was more interactive story. And you died. Or didn't have a finger anymore.
If one wants to evolve the health bar, he has to understand what the health bar really is.
It's neither a measurement of your characters health, nor a measurement of your characters luck, it has nothing to do with your character whatsoever. At least not if you look at it in terms of mechanics.
The Health in games measures the mistakes a player does. It measures how good he is at any given moment.
And that's what is at the core of nearly every game out there: A challenge that the Player has to meet.
Someone mentioned the margin of error that is important, and here is where it is important.
None but the best of the speedrunners can finish a game without ever being hit, without ever making a mistake. So in order for games to be beatable at all while not playing themselves for you, the need to allow for some amount of error on the players part. That is what a health bar does.
That is, what any system has to do that wants to replace the health bar. It has to tell the Player how he does, how much more errors he can afford before it's game over.
Some games do this and some of those games have already been mentioned. But all of those games have their own unique system that cannot be easily transferred to another game.
Thats the strength of the health bar: It's universal. It's fits every genre there is, every game can use it.
Every System that tries to be more realistic by differentiating between your different body parts or by the different ways you can hurt yourself, runs the risk of being needlessly complicated.
In order for it to work, the Player have to be able to easily read how he is doing and would have to be able to control to some degree where and how he is hit. That is near impossible in say an FPS.
There would be a huge amount of randomness involved, and randomness in negative things happening to the player ranks pretty high in gaming mortal sins.
In addition to this, in order for it to make sense, there would have to be mechanics in the game that deal with the different kinds of injuries.
However, as soon as an injury in a game has an impact that goes beyond a drop in health, as soon as it impacts gameplay, it quickly becomes a chore.
Example: You move slower and cannot aim smooth while moving, if your leg is hurt. Unless your game is centered and build around this, Players will just reload their save, until they make it to the next checkpoint without being shot in the leg. Which would be boring.
TLDR: Health bars ar good because the fit every game there is. More advanced Systems have to be tailor made for each game individually.
It's neither a measurement of your characters health, nor a measurement of your characters luck, it has nothing to do with your character whatsoever. At least not if you look at it in terms of mechanics.
The Health in games measures the mistakes a player does. It measures how good he is at any given moment.
And that's what is at the core of nearly every game out there: A challenge that the Player has to meet.
Someone mentioned the margin of error that is important, and here is where it is important.
None but the best of the speedrunners can finish a game without ever being hit, without ever making a mistake. So in order for games to be beatable at all while not playing themselves for you, the need to allow for some amount of error on the players part. That is what a health bar does.
That is, what any system has to do that wants to replace the health bar. It has to tell the Player how he does, how much more errors he can afford before it's game over.
Some games do this and some of those games have already been mentioned. But all of those games have their own unique system that cannot be easily transferred to another game.
Thats the strength of the health bar: It's universal. It's fits every genre there is, every game can use it.
Every System that tries to be more realistic by differentiating between your different body parts or by the different ways you can hurt yourself, runs the risk of being needlessly complicated.
In order for it to work, the Player have to be able to easily read how he is doing and would have to be able to control to some degree where and how he is hit. That is near impossible in say an FPS.
There would be a huge amount of randomness involved, and randomness in negative things happening to the player ranks pretty high in gaming mortal sins.
In addition to this, in order for it to make sense, there would have to be mechanics in the game that deal with the different kinds of injuries.
However, as soon as an injury in a game has an impact that goes beyond a drop in health, as soon as it impacts gameplay, it quickly becomes a chore.
Example: You move slower and cannot aim smooth while moving, if your leg is hurt. Unless your game is centered and build around this, Players will just reload their save, until they make it to the next checkpoint without being shot in the leg. Which would be boring.
TLDR: Health bars ar good because the fit every game there is. More advanced Systems have to be tailor made for each game individually.
The big problem of trying to make the health facotr more realistic being nobody wants to sit around in game to watch their character lying in a hospital bed with both his legs in a cast.
It would not be all that fun in a game if you took a single bullet in the stomach and your character is reduced to a wailing crumpled mess on the ground as he writhes in pain.
Sorry to say, but health bars/regenerating health will most likely be in just about any game in the foreseeable future.
It would not be all that fun in a game if you took a single bullet in the stomach and your character is reduced to a wailing crumpled mess on the ground as he writhes in pain.
Sorry to say, but health bars/regenerating health will most likely be in just about any game in the foreseeable future.
Why do we have to make it realistic? I am fine with lifebars, lets stick with that. I am sick of all the realism trying to pry its way into my video games.
Well you could always go one shot kill like the original ghost recon, but if you want an accessible game that isn't horribly frustrating, you're going to need SOME lack of realism.
In terms of games that exist, Flashpoint manages to do a pretty good compromise. Pretty much 2-3 shot kill, but with a medpack that takes AGES to heal you back to full health. You bleed out after a short time if you don't stabilize yourself.
It's still horribly unrealistic, and more in depth than most people want from an FPS (I really like it, but I'm one of those weird people that enjoy making things more difficult for themselves)
I guess with RPG's you have a bit more freedom, but even so, it's difficult to get a balance. Most people don't want to worry about going for a piss or eating or catching hypothermia or heatstroke or getting infected wounds when they're exploring goblin dungeons or radioactive wastelands or whatever.
In terms of games that exist, Flashpoint manages to do a pretty good compromise. Pretty much 2-3 shot kill, but with a medpack that takes AGES to heal you back to full health. You bleed out after a short time if you don't stabilize yourself.
It's still horribly unrealistic, and more in depth than most people want from an FPS (I really like it, but I'm one of those weird people that enjoy making things more difficult for themselves)
I guess with RPG's you have a bit more freedom, but even so, it's difficult to get a balance. Most people don't want to worry about going for a piss or eating or catching hypothermia or heatstroke or getting infected wounds when they're exploring goblin dungeons or radioactive wastelands or whatever.
How about instead of a health bar you attach electrodes to different parts of your body and the game gives you a little electric shock every time you get hit.
You were shot in the leg, ZAP!
That cover was just too far away... BZZZZ!
You got distracted trying to eat a slice of pizza when you suddenly notice the rocket shaped object hurtling toward you....
And so on. Seriously though, the health bar isn't that bad, sure it's not perfect but hey who wants a realistic game. Lets try to play COD4 in real life......
I know! Holiday to North Korea!
You were shot in the leg, ZAP!
That cover was just too far away... BZZZZ!
You got distracted trying to eat a slice of pizza when you suddenly notice the rocket shaped object hurtling toward you....
And so on. Seriously though, the health bar isn't that bad, sure it's not perfect but hey who wants a realistic game. Lets try to play COD4 in real life......
I know! Holiday to North Korea!
Health Bar.... health... bar... a bar showing the health.
Seriously? With all the crap currently with the regenerating health, you have a problem with good old health bars?
Games where the character can die will always have some sort of health bar. Else the game couldn't know when you're dead. The only thing that changes is how "good" it's hidden. Some games hide, it some mask it, some use the good old hearts (YEAH! Zelda hearths are awesome, stfu).
You know, we play GAMES. You want a war SIMULATION. Either join the army or play a simulation game. But do not touch the games you don't play. You probably didn't even play a Zelda game, jet you use the image to show how little the industry has gone. Let me tell you something. Health bars work perfectly find and they don't need to change. No, not only that they don't need to change, they can't change in a better way.
Or if you don't like it, don't look at it as a health bar but as a shit-o-meter. How many more mistakes you can take until it's game over?
Seriously? With all the crap currently with the regenerating health, you have a problem with good old health bars?
Games where the character can die will always have some sort of health bar. Else the game couldn't know when you're dead. The only thing that changes is how "good" it's hidden. Some games hide, it some mask it, some use the good old hearts (YEAH! Zelda hearths are awesome, stfu).
You know, we play GAMES. You want a war SIMULATION. Either join the army or play a simulation game. But do not touch the games you don't play. You probably didn't even play a Zelda game, jet you use the image to show how little the industry has gone. Let me tell you something. Health bars work perfectly find and they don't need to change. No, not only that they don't need to change, they can't change in a better way.
Or if you don't like it, don't look at it as a health bar but as a shit-o-meter. How many more mistakes you can take until it's game over?
RagTagBand said:
trouble_gum said:
GeneralTwinkle said:
hazabaza1 said:
jajaja, we get the point. This is not what the thread's about, however. I'm not lamenting the health bar as 'broken', or complaining that it's a piece of crap. I do like it for most games that use it, and I'm not trying to enforce a belief that all games must strive for optimum realism at all times. Ever. The health bar does what it does, which is (was?) fine, but this attitude hardly embiggens an entrepreneurial spirit in the future of gaming, seeing as every combat-based game still uses them, and the variation between games in this respect is very little.ultimateownage said:
When consoles began to get powerful enough to deal with polygons over sprites, the results were less than stellar; early 3D polygonal games sucked, and sprite-based games were looking better all the time. Had games designers employed this sense of mentality ("Why go 3D? Sprites are fine the way they are. If it ain't broke...") then games wouldn't have progressed in the exciting way they did. Grab a few magazines from 1992, read the readers' letters. It's hilarious stuff. ("My Game Boy is fine the way it is. Why would I ever want one in colour?" "any console that uses CDs (which are scratchable and break easily) is going to fail over a console that sticks with cartridges (indestructible objects of pure beauty)") ...and I'm getting a similar vibe here. "I likes my health bar the way it is. Let's stick with it, and never question whether a newer, more evolved, better system could come along 'cause it CAN'T. So don't even think about it. Just, like, enjoy what's there, man."
Remember, people who make the games we'll be playing in the future read the Escapist, and join in the forums, and take on board the kind of things people have to say. Apparently the consensus is that we should leave the health bar alone and let it continue untouched and unquestioned in the future of games, so when our grandkids are playing Pong of Duty XXXVII through their neur-holo implants, they're still going to see that little green bar in the corner of their cytro-retinal display.
I think the Yahtzee system of luck and risk replacing health, particularly in bullet games, would be a viable alternative (possibly not for multiplayer) to the green bar. Some sort of system that judges how risky your behaviour is, such as your use of cover, your approach to a given situation (Crysis 2 I believe implemented a risk-based set-piece approach to taking on mobs), and whether you're a gung-ho Drakian hero who leaps over walls guns a-blazin' in the middle of a 60-on-1 firefight, or a Rainbow Sixer who tosses a flashbang into a room, followed by a smoke grenade, and crawls through a second entrance on your belly, disabling your enemies from behind by capping them in the back of the kneecap. Both styles are fun to play (and replay). The idea being that, (like in Rainbow 6) one bullet kills/disables, but you won't get hit by a bullet unless your risk-o-meter goes into the red. (point blank range would discount this, as it's pretty annoying when an AK-toting enemy is standing in front of you, and can only hit the lamp on the table behind you. Also, being in point blank range of an enemy you haven't yet killed/disabled would pretty much instantly shoot your risk factor into the red).Random berk said:
Ultimately, one hit kills, but you wouldn't get hit at all if you play well and play smart. The health bar would be gone, replaced with a hypothetical "risk bar", which might not have to be as visual and imposing as a health bar, because as an intelligent human gamer you should be able to judge whether your player-character is engaging in high-risk behaviour or not. Stay low-risk, stay alive. Of course, this could be offset by a more imposing enemy, therefore hiding behind a wall for too long would raise your risk bar higher as the enemy moves into a stronger position, say.
Anyway, the potential is there. The health bar need not be the only system that games use. There's no real need to be conservative and hold onto it as if it's the most important aspect of a game to you, just because you can't instantly think of a better system that can replace it (for none exists). Games evolve. They always have done, and will continue to do so; why can't the health bar do the same?
My post didn't simply say "If it aint broke don't fix it" I did actually continue writing.Felstaff said:
The overall point of my post was that the more complex and/or realistic you make the system the less fun the game becomes, the closer it becomes to being a frustrating ball ache.
Variations of the Health Bar exist, Like the Luck-o-meter in Hells Highway, but my original point (the one you so easily glossed over) is that you, OP, seem to want to move games closer to simulations, or have more games which are simulations.
> "Health" indicators which are not part of the UI
> An obsession with "One hit one kill" mechanics.
THOSE THINGS ARE NOT DESIGNED TO BE FUN, they exist to be extremely challenging to people who don't mind spending an hour or two setting up for a single battle. There is a reason that Operation Flash point and Arma are considered "Niche" titles and it's their health system that puts the majority of players off.
I get you're trying to "Push innovation forward" But I want you to look at toilet paper.
Toilet paper has been the same for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, and do you know why? Because it does the job perfectly. Little improvements here and there can be made but ultimately the core stays the same. Pushing for innovation, that something entirely new should take its place, is pointless. Innovation for innovations sake is just as bad as stagnation.
I find it hard to believe the people arguing to change the health bar to a "luck" bar think its not a health bar. "Risk-o-meter" is also a health bar. Some of these actually seem worse than a health bar, because they imply you are magically immune to damage till your "luck" runs out.
The health bar is a measure of your success and failure in a game. Not much room to change it.
There MIGHT be a better system come along, but the actuality is it will probably be a hidden or name-changed health bar, like the above suggested systems in this thread.
The health bar is a measure of your success and failure in a game. Not much room to change it.
There MIGHT be a better system come along, but the actuality is it will probably be a hidden or name-changed health bar, like the above suggested systems in this thread.
And this.Clive Howlitzer said:
Lord of the Rings Online uses morale, if your morale reaches 0 you are forced to retreat and 'regroup' at the nearest spawn point. The caveat is that it feels exactly like a health bar.
Yahtzee's idea is interesting, but I think there is a risk it may go the way of Lotro and just be a health bar with a different backstory.
The best 'fix' I can think of is to change the setting. Health bars don't feel as unrealistic on mechanical targets. So if we play as a robot, a tank or a spaceship the health bar can represent mechanical damage that can be repaired. Personal power shields is another way to explain how we can magically absorb damage.
Another dynamic could be to make combat very deadly but give players awesome ways to avoid damage. Using avoidance moves would cost endurance and without endurance the player would be a sitting duck ripe for execution. It's a little bit like Yahtzee's idea, but with more player activity.
Yahtzee's idea is interesting, but I think there is a risk it may go the way of Lotro and just be a health bar with a different backstory.
The best 'fix' I can think of is to change the setting. Health bars don't feel as unrealistic on mechanical targets. So if we play as a robot, a tank or a spaceship the health bar can represent mechanical damage that can be repaired. Personal power shields is another way to explain how we can magically absorb damage.
Another dynamic could be to make combat very deadly but give players awesome ways to avoid damage. Using avoidance moves would cost endurance and without endurance the player would be a sitting duck ripe for execution. It's a little bit like Yahtzee's idea, but with more player activity.
I think the health bar is a necessary "evil" - some hate it, most don't. Games are designed to be fun and entertaining, not bog you down in the endless finicky details of "realism". You don't go to the movies and expect it to be possible for giant transforming robots to be able to... well, exist, you cannot play a video game and expect it to stick to realism.
All I'm saying is, you are playing a game about slaying DRAGONS. By playing said game, you have already agreed to suspend your disbelief, so what does it matter that you have a little number or a red screen that tells you how soon your character is going to cease to function. While I don't wish to say "Don't fix what ain't broke" the reason the health bar has been around for so long is probably because it is the simplest way of representing a characters status without miring the player is countless details and their console of choice in millions of calculations.
And I have played games with "realistic" mechanics, like Operation Flashpoint and a terrible Japanese flight sim called Over G. I disliked both of them because they were far too boring to let me continue, because it was forcing me to limp over two kilometers to the next objective because some guy got a lucky shot on me from 500 meters away before I even saw him. As for Over G, it attempted to maintain realism by shouting "OVER G" in your ear every time you pulled a hard turn while the screen turned black or red. It also gave you limited fuel and missiles, but also only three enemies at any one time. It wasn't terrible because it HAD healthbars, but rather because it tried too hard to adhere to minor details that I, as a gamer, don't care about.
The current health systems are obviously not perfect, but I don't think this debate can be solved with a one-size-fits-all approach. Clearly, modern shooters would be damned near impossible if a "realistic" system was introduced, while some fighting games (such as UFC) are moving towards a system where you can damage limbs or joints and affect the other players capacity to fight back. The reason the health bar is still around is because it WORKS. It does what it needs to do, which is graphically display the player's status. After all, you are playing a video game, and I don't think realism need apply.
All I'm saying is, you are playing a game about slaying DRAGONS. By playing said game, you have already agreed to suspend your disbelief, so what does it matter that you have a little number or a red screen that tells you how soon your character is going to cease to function. While I don't wish to say "Don't fix what ain't broke" the reason the health bar has been around for so long is probably because it is the simplest way of representing a characters status without miring the player is countless details and their console of choice in millions of calculations.
And I have played games with "realistic" mechanics, like Operation Flashpoint and a terrible Japanese flight sim called Over G. I disliked both of them because they were far too boring to let me continue, because it was forcing me to limp over two kilometers to the next objective because some guy got a lucky shot on me from 500 meters away before I even saw him. As for Over G, it attempted to maintain realism by shouting "OVER G" in your ear every time you pulled a hard turn while the screen turned black or red. It also gave you limited fuel and missiles, but also only three enemies at any one time. It wasn't terrible because it HAD healthbars, but rather because it tried too hard to adhere to minor details that I, as a gamer, don't care about.
The current health systems are obviously not perfect, but I don't think this debate can be solved with a one-size-fits-all approach. Clearly, modern shooters would be damned near impossible if a "realistic" system was introduced, while some fighting games (such as UFC) are moving towards a system where you can damage limbs or joints and affect the other players capacity to fight back. The reason the health bar is still around is because it WORKS. It does what it needs to do, which is graphically display the player's status. After all, you are playing a video game, and I don't think realism need apply.
I'm still waiting for a game that replaces the health bar with a "loneliness Bar" and you just hug enemies until they go into some sort of happiness induced comatose state... PUBLISH MY GAME ALREADY DAMN YOU!
There actually was a game back in 1994 called "Robinson's Requiem" where you were stranded on an alien planet and had to try and keep your bodily functions running smoothly and appendages attached to survive.
Which was way more complicated than it sounds. Arm injury and no alcohol to sterilize it? Gangrene. Better amputate that thing. But don't forget the tourniquet or you'll bleed to death. Or the morphine so you don't pass out from the pain. Speaking of pills, don't mix those, especially when you're at risk of passing out in the middle of a carnivorous dinosaur herd. And yeah, that syringe of atropine might be nice pick-me-up when you're feeling winded, but there's only so long that your heart and blood vessels can handle a 200+ bpm sprint.
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Which was way more complicated than it sounds. Arm injury and no alcohol to sterilize it? Gangrene. Better amputate that thing. But don't forget the tourniquet or you'll bleed to death. Or the morphine so you don't pass out from the pain. Speaking of pills, don't mix those, especially when you're at risk of passing out in the middle of a carnivorous dinosaur herd. And yeah, that syringe of atropine might be nice pick-me-up when you're feeling winded, but there's only so long that your heart and blood vessels can handle a 200+ bpm sprint.
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