The Holocaust.

[silver wolf009]

Hello dear Escapist, me again with yet another tale of intrest.

Earlier in the week, I was having a rather interesting and all around intellectually stimulating disscussion with some friends over a nutritional source of food. Or in laymans terms, Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out I was talking to my friends during lunch in the library.

Half way until we had to go somewhere else our conversation made the gradual shift from World War 2 games, to the actual World War 2 and the infamous Holocaust that took place within Axis controlled territory, when we were stopped by an individual who we shall, for the sake of argument, call X.

X approached us and said, "The holocuast was a horrible time for the Jewish people". While I agree with this statment, I dissagree with his reaction with me saying "We must not forget the suffering of the other groups involved" I.E. Gypsies, Communists and other 'inferior scum'.

X responded with the straight faced question, "There were others killed by the Nazi's in the Holocaust?" At this point all eyes were on X and I asked the question, "Do you know what the word holocaust means?"
X: "Yes, an ethnic cleansing"
Me. "No, it is a great offering by fire, usually to a god"
Upon this point X simply wandered off without responding to the question and our conversation went on as it had previously, but there was a sinking realization it left me with.

I realized that the Holocaust has completly overtaken the genearl view of the word and made it synomous with the suffering inflicted upon followers of the Jewish religion. I feel that this is a bad thing that people can be mislead by an event to completly view something as the event made it seem. How does the Escapist stand on this?

 

[Berethond]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally handicapped.

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not. If we start treating it like it's unique, it's much easier to rationalize it away and say that nothing like that will ever happen again.
Because it will.

 

[Iron Lightning]

Very well put, my friend, we must always be cognizant of the difference between "The Holocaust," "Holocaust," and "Porno Holocaust" (but we'll not discuss that last one.) That said, as this is a matter of fact and not opinion, this lacks discussion value. While I appreciate your amusing anecdote, I'm sorry that I cannot think of anything to state beyond the obvious.

 

[Danny Ocean]

I realized that the Holocaust has completly overtaken the genearl view of the word and made it synomous with the suffering inflicted upon followers of the Jewish religion. I feel that this is a bad thing that people can be mislead by an event to completly view something as the event made it seem. How does the Escapist stand on this?

Erm, forgive me, but I'm pretty sure a Holocaust is an ethnic cleansing, as well as an offering to a God via fire. The two aren't mutually exclusive. They even had kilns.

X: "Yes, an ethnic cleansing"
Me. "No, it is a great offering by fire, usually to a god"
Upon this point X simply wandered off without responding to the question

From what I can see, he did respond to the question, and you seemed to object for no real reason?

I don't really understand. Are you asking if we think that the word 'Holocaust' being appropriated with an ethnic cleansing is bad?

Buh?

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not.

Genocides might not be, but something so fervent and production-line-esq? As far as I know that's Unique.

 

[Skinny Razor]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

 

[stygN]

In general the Holocaust was bad.

So.. Which part of it was worse? Is it worse to kill a Jew then a Gypsy?

The fact of the matter is, I don't think most Jews know much about the Holocaust other then about 6-7 million Jews were killed in it.

How? When? Where? Why?

And what about the Soviet Union? They killed an untold number of Jews too, for more or less the same reason!

And other "inferior scum" after the war!

Who talks about that? And what Jew knows about that?

I'm not sure about the numbers that USSR killed of their own people (including, and specifically Jews) under Stalin, but it wasn't few!

So, should Israel be mad at Communism and Russia too? Well, if they're mad at communism then they must include Cuba, China, North Korea..... But they haven't been known to kill many Jews...

We must never forget the Holocaust, but we cant ONLY remember the Holocaust..

And remember... The Jews kill innocent civilians too.. They're not all white lams of God just because they're Jews.

Is there a single innocent country left on this planet?

Even little peaceful Norway sterilized Gypsies not THAT long ago...

 

[Skinny Razor]

Genocides might not be, but something so fervent and production-line-esq? As far as I know that's Unique.

So that's some other level of genocide to the interwahame hacking up any Tutsi they could find with machetes and leaving them in piles in the street? Or the Great Leap Forward ending in the starvation deaths of tens of millions?

The Nazis weren't any more fervent, they were just more fastidious.

 

[Grubnar]

The nazis murdered anyone and everyone that they did not like.
That was alot of people.

Do I think it is sad that people today only seem to remember the jews? Yes I do!

 

[manythings]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

OT: In general I am enraged by people not knowing things about history. If any of you happen to have an old school history book (or young siblings) pick it up and prepare to laugh till you cry with the bullshit we were all taught that was the truth.

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

 

[Jacob Haggarty]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and retards.

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not. If we start treating it like it's unique, it's much easier to rationalize it away and say that nothing like that will ever happen again.
Because it will.

... You were doing so well.

Gypsies, yes
Homosexuals, yes
...Retards? i dont think thats the right word. Mentally handicapped. This isnt political correctness. Retard is a derogitrory term. It would be like if you said puffs, instead of homosexuals, or pikey instead of gypsie.

Just saying, its not a very nice word really. Fine if your just calling a mate a retard, but when you actually refer to someone who is mentally handicapped its wrong and rude.

 

[Jacob Haggarty]

In general the Holocaust was bad.

So.. Which part of it was worse? Is it worse to kill a Jew then a Gypsy?

The fact of the matter is, I don't think most Jews know much about the Holocaust other then about 6-7 million Jews were killed in it.

How? When? Where? Why?

And what about the Soviet Union? They killed an untold number of Jews too, for more or less the same reason!

And other "inferior scum" after the war!

Who talks about that? And what Jew knows about that?

I'm not sure about the numbers that USSR killed of their own people (including, and specifically Jews) under Stalin, but it wasn't few!

So, should Israel be mad at Communism and Russia too? Well, if they're mad at communism then they must include Cuba, China, North Korea..... But they haven't been known to kill many Jews...

We must never forget the Holocaust, but we cant ONLY remember the Holocaust..

And remember... The Jews kill innocent civilians too.. They're not all white lams of God just because they're Jews.

Is there a single innocent country left on this planet?

Even little peaceful Norway sterilized Gypsies not THAT long ago...

about the Soviet Union? They killed an untold number of Jews too, for more or less the same reason!

I'm not sure about the numbers that USSR killed of their own people (including, and specifically Jews) under Stalin, but it wasn't few!

You are aware what you avatar/picture is right? Its the fucking soviet "sickle and hammer"

A bit distasteful, considering you just said they killed an untold amount of jewish people

 

[stygN]

You are aware what you avatar/picture is right? Its the fucking soviet "sickle and hammer"

A bit distasteful, considering you just said they killed an untold amount of jewish people

Distasteful. Maybe. But because I said they killed Jews? Are you a racist? They killed more of their own civilians that were NOT Jews, but I guess you only care about the Jews..?

It is not illegal to be a communist, and I'm not a full blood communist, but pretty close to it.

If you are personally offended by my avatar, I can change it, but it's not illegal.

I do not admire communism for what it has done, I'm admiring it for what it may some day do.

 

[Berethond]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and retards.

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not. If we start treating it like it's unique, it's much easier to rationalize it away and say that nothing like that will ever happen again.
Because it will.

... You were doing so well.

Gypsies, yes
Homosexuals, yes
...Retards? i dont think thats the right word. Mentally handicapped. This isnt political correctness. Retard is a derogitrory term. It would be like if you said puffs, instead of homosexuals, or pikey instead of gypsie.

Just saying, its not a very nice word really. Fine if your just calling a mate a retard, but when you actually refer to someone who is mentally handicapped its wrong and rude.

I didn't find it offensive, but I guess I'll change it if it bothers you.

 

[TheLiham]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and retards.

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not. If we start treating it like it's unique, it's much easier to rationalize it away and say that nothing like that will ever happen again.
Because it will.

... You were doing so well.

Gypsies, yes
Homosexuals, yes
...Retards? i dont think thats the right word. Mentally handicapped. This isnt political correctness. Retard is a derogitrory term. It would be like if you said puffs, instead of homosexuals, or pikey instead of gypsie.

Just saying, its not a very nice word really. Fine if your just calling a mate a retard, but when you actually refer to someone who is mentally handicapped its wrong and rude.

I thought retarded was a scientific term for someone with a severe mental handicap :S

OT: I think that the holocaust, while important, isn't as devastating as other events

 

[Skinny Razor]

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

Reality? An unpardonable slander! I would never do such a thing. It would be putting the whole internet at risk for a sort of matter-antimatter explosion.

 

[Roperius]

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

I understand that many atheist individuals have done terrible things, for instance Stalin, or Chairman Mao, but they didn't commit, and I'd like to stress I'm in no way defending or empathizing the atrocities they were guilty of, their crimes as a result of being atheist. Dawkins makes this argument (not that I particularly like him), during his debate with Bill O'Reilly.

Additionally, Hitler was a Christian, but he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs (to my knowledge, I'm not a specialist on Modern History).

Digressing slightly, it appears that religion is the terrible excuse, or the means of control, by which certain men and women of notoriety, time and again, instigate war and racial hatred.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

the fact is, far more Jews died in the concentration camps than all the other groups combined. despite the fact that my faith was one of the other groups Hitler attempted to exterminate, i don't take offense to the Holocaust being viewed as a purge of Jews. yeah, it sucks that other groups died and most people seem to forget, but we're talking thousands vs. millions. maybe that sounds callous, but to me it's just logical.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Not this again, k guys The Holocaust was bad we've all grasped that, move on, get over it and keep documents related to it for future reference material

 

[stygN]

Additionally, Hitler was a Christian, but he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs (to my knowledge, I'm not a specialist on Modern History).

Digressing slightly, it appears that religion is the terrible excuse, or the means of control, by which certain men and women of notoriety, time and again, instigate war and racial hatred.

Hitlers faith is a quite debated subject actually..

He was a Christian.

But he was also interested in Paganism (Norse and Gothic).

I believe he also claimed that he WAS a God at some point...

Was he a Christian at the beginning of his reign? Maybe. At the end? Maybe.

But it's a VERY heavy maybe.

And it was not Christianity that lead him to start wars or wanting to kill of all the "sub-human", it was Ideology and faith in old myths and sagas about the great Arian race...

So, don't go blame WW2 on religion...

 

[manythings]

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

I understand that many atheist individuals have done terrible things, for instance Stalin, or Chairman Mao, but they didn't commit, and I'd like to stress I'm in no way defending or empathizing the atrocities they were guilty of, their crimes as a result of being atheist. Dawkins makes this argument (not that I particularly like him), during his debate with Bill O'Reilly.

Additionally, Hitler was a Christian, but he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs (to my knowledge, I'm not a specialist on Modern History).

Digressing slightly, it appears that religion is the terrible excuse, or the means of control, by which certain men and women of notoriety, time and again, instigate war and racial hatred.

I'm not saying "religion" is innocent, by any means, it's just the lever that was pushed sometimes. I just hate that ridiculous notion that once atheism is embraced by all in sundry suddenly the world will be a magical utopia.

On the Hitler as a christian topic I think we can safely say that the Thule occult society practiced contrarily to the church. They believed some crazy shit, I'm talking Scientology ridiculous.