The Holocaust.

[TheLiham]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and retards.

It's even worse to treat the holocaust like it's some sort of unique event, because it's really not. If we start treating it like it's unique, it's much easier to rationalize it away and say that nothing like that will ever happen again.
Because it will.

... You were doing so well.

Gypsies, yes
Homosexuals, yes
...Retards? i dont think thats the right word. Mentally handicapped. This isnt political correctness. Retard is a derogitrory term. It would be like if you said puffs, instead of homosexuals, or pikey instead of gypsie.

Just saying, its not a very nice word really. Fine if your just calling a mate a retard, but when you actually refer to someone who is mentally handicapped its wrong and rude.

I thought retarded was a scientific term for someone with a severe mental handicap :S

OT: I think that the holocaust, while important, isn't as devastating as other events

Mental retardation is a technical descriptive. Retards is derogatory, but you knew that.

Anything can be derogatory, including gypsy and homosexual yet they are still the correct terms. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks people changing things like this because they might possibly be offensive to some people in certain situations is ridiculous.

 

[NewYork_Comedian]

People use "Jew" or "Jew Monkey" as an insult at my school now.

And when someone unpopular guys makes a joke about Jews [doesnt include me, dont worry], they call them racist...

I really want to throttled some of them.

OT: I kind of realized that if it wasn't for The Holocaust, Hitler could possibly be considered, err, a genius. ...And possibly badass as well...huh.

But yeah, it was a bad thing, and even i know about the gypsies, Africans, POW, ect. that were also in it. Its kind of sad he didnt know about that.

 

[MaxwellEdison]

It's always bugged me that Hitler was remembered as hating the Jews. Not because he didn't, or because they weren't a 'main focus', but because it's leaving out the fact that Hitler was against everyone who wasn't of Germanic descent, anyone who was against any of his ideals, and anyone with any disfigurements or handicaps. All of these people were killed in the Holocaust.

It really seems as though that's all people learn about ww2: Hitler hated Jews, and we went in because Hitler was evil. Leaving out almost all the political reasons and many of the idealogical causes for a war is never a good thing.

 

[Dwarfman]

Hello dear Escapist, me again with yet another tale of intrest.

Earlier in the week, I was having a rather interesting and all around intellectually stimulating disscussion with some friends over a nutritional source of food. Or in laymans terms, Speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out I was talking to my friends during lunch in the library.

Half way until we had to go somewhere else our conversation made the gradual shift from World War 2 games, to the actual World War 2 and the infamous Holocaust that took place within Axis controlled territory, when we were stopped by an individual who we shall, for the sake of argument, call X.

X approached us and said, "The holocuast was a horrible time for the Jewish people". While I agree with this statment, I dissagree with his reaction with me saying "We must not forget the suffering of the other groups involved" I.E. Gypsies, Communists and other 'inferior scum'.

X responded with the straight faced question, "There were others killed by the Nazi's in the Holocaust?" At this point all eyes were on X and I asked the question, "Do you know what the word holocaust means?"
X: "Yes, an ethnic cleansing"
Me. "No, it is a great offering by fire, usually to a god"
Upon this point X simply wandered off without responding to the question and our conversation went on as it had previously, but there was a sinking realization it left me with.

I realized that the Holocaust has completly overtaken the genearl view of the word and made it synomous with the suffering inflicted upon followers of the Jewish religion. I feel that this is a bad thing that people can be mislead by an event to completly view something as the event made it seem. How does the Escapist stand on this?

Ahhh...God bless the historically ignorant, cause no one else will.

Actually I feel sorry for your X. He said nothing wrong. It was a terrible time for the jewish people, but as you so elloquently put the holocaust of WW2 had many more victims.

That being said, and other people have already mentioned it the term holocaust was one coined with the jews in mind. It's a real shame to not mention or remember the other fallen, however by the end of the war when the mandate was passed to ethnically cleanse the jewish race from the face of the Earth...well that's something that needs to remembered for generations to come so that it should never happen again to anyone.

 

[Dwarfman]

Genocides might not be, but something so fervent and production-line-esq? As far as I know that's unique.

So that's some other level of genocide to the interwahame hacking up any Tutsi they could find with machetes and leaving them in piles in the street? Or the Great Leap Forward ending in the starvation deaths of tens of millions?

Well yes, to be honest I think it is.

Seriously? Are you arguing to declare the Holocaust Best Genocide Ever? How about the 400 years of the slave trade? Would you say to the Bosnians and Rwandans and Liberans "Yeah, you had a little ethnic cleansing here, but it's a pale simulacrum of a real genocide"? What possible justification could you use?

Witch trials and burnings were public spectacles on a par with the opening of blockbuster movies. The Inquisition had a corporate structure and banked the assets of its victims. The Spartans set aside one day a year when it was legal to kill a slave. The Nazis invented nothing; they merely aped the worst crimes of others.

I'm going to have to second this motion here people. Whilst I'm sure nobody was trying to do anything as morbid as working out the '...Best Genocide Ever?' world history has been full of many horrible things done by people to other people. I think one thing we can all agree on is there are no best or worst genocides. There are just genocides and they are all equally repugnant.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally handicapped.

Uh, what about the Blacks, Czechs, and Communists?

 

[Berethond]

Yes, it's bad to forget that Hilter also killed Gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally handicapped.

Uh, what about the Blacks, Czechs, and Communists?

Uhhhh..... They're not important.
(I'm just kidding. I actually just didn't feel like listing all of them.)

 

[Cliff_m85]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

OT: In general I am enraged by people not knowing things about history. If any of you happen to have an old school history book (or young siblings) pick it up and prepare to laugh till you cry with the bullshit we were all taught that was the truth.

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

Only if you like to revise history (Hitler was a theist) or pretend that leaders setting themselves up as Gods (Kim Jong Il, for example) are 'Atheists'. Claiming that you ARE a god =/= Atheist.

 

[Lord Legion]

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

I understand that many atheist individuals have done terrible things, for instance Stalin, or Chairman Mao, but they didn't commit, and I'd like to stress I'm in no way defending or empathizing the atrocities they were guilty of, their crimes as a result of being atheist. Dawkins makes this argument (not that I particularly like him), during his debate with Bill O'Reilly.

Additionally, Hitler was a Christian, but he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs (to my knowledge, I'm not a specialist on Modern History).

Digressing slightly, it appears that religion is the terrible excuse, or the means of control, by which certain men and women of notoriety, time and again, instigate war and racial hatred.

I'm not saying "religion" is innocent, by any means, it's just the lever that was pushed sometimes. I just hate that ridiculous notion that once atheism is embraced by all in sundry suddenly the world will be a magical utopia.

On the Hitler as a christian topic I think we can safely say that the Thule occult society practiced contrarily to the church. They believed some crazy shit, I'm talking Scientology ridiculous.

Bingo, we aught to remember the number of AMERICAN scientists and philosophers that were all FOR the extermination of "inferior races" and undesireables. It is a blatant lie in many cases when people say that no one knew what the nazis were doing. Papers were written on how the human race was going to be strengthened through eugenics and guided reproduction. Many of these people heralded it as the final break away from religion and the "preposterous notion" that all life has worth.

Of course the Vatican supported Hitler too, or at least turned a blind eye.

 

[Iron Lightning]

Very well put, my friend, we must always be cognizant of the difference between "The Holocaust," "Holocaust," and "Porno Holocaust" (but we'll not discuss that last one.) That said, as this is a matter of fact and not opinion, this lacks discussion value. While I appreciate your amusing anecdote, I'm sorry that I cannot think of anything to state beyond the obvious.

Porno Holocaust did not happen dammit, it's just a myth created by porn stars for attention and pity.

OP, you forgot the Slavs by the way.

Oh yeah, well check this out [http://thecinemasnob.com/2009/08/05/porno-holocaust.aspx] (no nudity, but you might get funny looks for watching a review of something called Porno Holocaust.)

 

[Blind Sight]

Very well put, my friend, we must always be cognizant of the difference between "The Holocaust," "Holocaust," and "Porno Holocaust" (but we'll not discuss that last one.) That said, as this is a matter of fact and not opinion, this lacks discussion value. While I appreciate your amusing anecdote, I'm sorry that I cannot think of anything to state beyond the obvious.

Porno Holocaust did not happen dammit, it's just a myth created by porn stars for attention and pity.

OP, you forgot the Slavs by the way.

Oh yeah, well check this out [http://thecinemasnob.com/2009/08/05/porno-holocaust.aspx] (no nudity, but you might get funny looks for watching a review of something called Porno Holocaust.)

Clearly the Cinema Snob is in on the Pornist conspiracy to make Porno Holocaust look like it actually happened, it's lies, LIES I SAY.

/satire of Holocaust denial theorists.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Genocides might not be, but something so fervent and production-line-esq? As far as I know that's unique.

So that's some other level of genocide to the interwahame hacking up any Tutsi they could find with machetes and leaving them in piles in the street? Or the Great Leap Forward ending in the starvation deaths of tens of millions?

Well yes, to be honest I think it is.

Seriously? Are you arguing to declare the Holocaust Best Genocide Ever?

Wasn't the biggest, but it was those most mechanised and organised. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Aur0ra145]

Let's not forget the mass amounts of Russian POW's that died as well in Nazi captivity.

 

[Dys]

I'm polish, a significant portion of my family were treated as poorly as the most unfortunate Jews, saw the Warsaw uprising and then, some were even so blindingly lucky that they ended up in russian capture. Anyone who claims that Jewish people are the only people who suffered/suffered the worst are going to get an earful from me.

I find it a bit unfair how people generally think that only Jewish people were persecuted by nazi Germany. But, I guess given all the drama that surrounds the Jewish people (isreal etc), it is understandable how it gets spoken about more. It still annoys me.

 

[manythings]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

OT: In general I am enraged by people not knowing things about history. If any of you happen to have an old school history book (or young siblings) pick it up and prepare to laugh till you cry with the bullshit we were all taught that was the truth.

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

Only if you like to revise history (Hitler was a theist) or pretend that leaders setting themselves up as Gods (Kim Jong Il, for example) are 'Atheists'. Claiming that you ARE a god =/= Atheist.

Stalin and Mao both broke Hitler's high score. My point is that atheists have this insane notion that the abolition of religion will suddenly result in a unicorn-topia (a utopia built by unicorns, it's better than a human one).

 

[Dys]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

OT: In general I am enraged by people not knowing things about history. If any of you happen to have an old school history book (or young siblings) pick it up and prepare to laugh till you cry with the bullshit we were all taught that was the truth.

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

Only if you like to revise history (Hitler was a theist) or pretend that leaders setting themselves up as Gods (Kim Jong Il, for example) are 'Atheists'. Claiming that you ARE a god =/= Atheist.

Stalin and Mao both broke Hitler's high score. My point is that atheists have this insane notion that the abolition of religion will suddenly result in a unicorn-topia (a utopia built by unicorns, it's better than a human one).

Or maybe it's just that they'd like to think that one less reason to kill each other means there will be less pointless death.

Also, isn't it somewhat meaningless to claim that 'atheists' have a common belief when, by definition, they do not have any specific belief?

At any rate, seems like a fairly poorly thought out argument that, while not built on any flawed logic, is probably going to result in a massive "I believe x and am therefore better" flamewar.

 

[Cliff_m85]

"And retards"?

Far more Soviets died at Nazi hands than any other group, but 50 years of Cold War means that part of the story has received short shrift.


Hitler is a lazy piker when compared to Stalin and Mao. Their combined total is over 100 million dead.

There's genocides happening right now, in Congo, in Darfur, probably in Muslim China too, but most chose to remain ignorant of that fact.

There you go, bringing reality and valid furthery information into the discussion... Some people...

OT: In general I am enraged by people not knowing things about history. If any of you happen to have an old school history book (or young siblings) pick it up and prepare to laugh till you cry with the bullshit we were all taught that was the truth.

I also find it funny that people say religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and in the face of the fact that the biggest mass murderers in history were atheists. Wacky fun times, I tell you.

Only if you like to revise history (Hitler was a theist) or pretend that leaders setting themselves up as Gods (Kim Jong Il, for example) are 'Atheists'. Claiming that you ARE a god =/= Atheist.

Stalin and Mao both broke Hitler's high score. My point is that atheists have this insane notion that the abolition of religion will suddenly result in a unicorn-topia (a utopia built by unicorns, it's better than a human one).

Which is interesting because both Stalin and Mao were looked upon as gods. Chairman Mao's book became the Bible for the people at the time, hence the high selling of it (when it's forced upon you or given freely, any book can become a best-seller).

Really I don't believe it'd become a utopia if everyone was an Atheist. But I would think there'd be less murder, less hatred of homosexuals, and a great increase in science/medical technology.

 

[silver wolf009]

I realized that the Holocaust has completly overtaken the genearl view of the word and made it synomous with the suffering inflicted upon followers of the Jewish religion.

I think that only applies to the US of A.
Also your spelling is kinda bad for someone with English as their first language.

Sorry about that, I will admit that I was half asleep at time of writing.

 

[stygN]

Additionally, Hitler was a Christian, but he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs (to my knowledge, I'm not a specialist on Modern History).

Digressing slightly, it appears that religion is the terrible excuse, or the means of control, by which certain men and women of notoriety, time and again, instigate war and racial hatred.

Hitlers faith is a quite debated subject actually..

He was a Christian.

But he was also interested in Paganism (Norse and Gothic).

I believe he also claimed that he WAS a God at some point...

Was he a Christian at the beginning of his reign? Maybe. At the end? Maybe.

But it's a VERY heavy maybe.

And it was not Christianity that lead him to start wars or wanting to kill of all the "sub-human", it was Ideology and faith in old myths and sagas about the great Arian race...

So, don't go blame WW2 on religion...

I wasn't blaming it on religion at all; "he didn't undertake mass genocide because of his religious beliefs."

Sorry if you were just agreeing with me, or if you missed that.

Ooops.. Missed that : ) Sorry, we agree then : )

 

[manythings]

Which is interesting because both Stalin and Mao were looked upon as gods. Chairman Mao's book became the Bible for the people at the time, hence the high selling of it (when it's forced upon you or given freely, any book can become a best-seller).

Really I don't believe it'd become a utopia if everyone was an Atheist. But I would think there'd be less murder, less hatred of homosexuals, and a great increase in science/medical technology.

How they were viewed is purely semantics since all monarchs were viewed as living descendants of whatever heaven applied. Not to mention the secular nature of purist communism.

On the topic of accelerating scientific advancement I would call that a strict maybe since I have no doubt it would just be another system open to abuses and a lot of people pushing "the ends justify the means". Down that path you can suddenly end up in a very familiar and concentrated camping arrangement by making little compromising to other peoples lives in favour of learning.

Gay-bashers would hate gays withou religion just like racists would hate other races, people would still kill other people for all the same reasons as they did before. Maybe there'd be fewer but I'm willing to bet on a change of near zero.