The Honorable and Dishonorable Game Mentions For 2014
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
So, I suppose I'll put my head in the theoretical fire here and and try to explain Yahtzee's reasoning as if I knew the guy. His statements shouldn't be taken at face value if you're trying to understand what he's saying. His statements are about how he feels/views the genre and not literal fact. The context to keep in mind is in the person speaking. It's not uncommon to hear statements like Yahtzee's in many places, it's just the view of an outsider from something they don't care for. I've heard FPS genre cast off as skill-less spray n' pray as well as established sports being cast aside for lack of extreme physical exertion(especially curling). In the end, Yahtzee's simple view of the genre stems from his dislike of it so it's better to view his words as what he sees when looking at fighting games as opposed to how they are to people who are more knowledgeable of the genre.Nazulu said:
[small][side note]Reading over the first paragraph, it feels like I just said the same thing with different words about 4 times. I apologize, I'm rather tired right now so I may be rambling.[/small]
As to why he dislikes them(ignoring the common lack of good narratives in the genre), I'll reach a bit here and say that the pace of fighting games are too fast for him which is understandable since you measure tells and openings in frames. If you can't keep up with the game's pace, you'll likely find more success in keeping a constant offensive up, even if it's random(after all, memorizing all the combos doesn't help your reaction time any). Keep in mind that this isn't about beating good players with mashing, it's about seeing how successful you are, on average, playing a game you can't keep up with, which if you aren't into fighting games to begin with will likely be against bots anyway.
I appreciate it, but this wasn't called for.-Dragmire- said:
I know he's looking at them "from behind bullet proof glass" speculating. My problem is he says it with such tenacity, and it's only wearing him thin.
It's like a bad habit. It feels like he cuts himself off on purpose and then labels it whatever, and while it's sometimes funny, the only people who are going to agree with him are the people who already agree, and it harms his image as a professional. I'm criticising him, I know he could do it better.
I don't know if you're the type that says he's only good for comedy, but I strongly disagree with that as he usually brings up some interesting points and actually does effect the industry sometimes.
To bring this analogy back to Smash Bros., there is no way someone like Mango or Mew2King would lose to someone randomly mashing buttons. I'm decent at Melee, but I doubt I could ever take a stock off those guys.President Bagel said:
Anyway, I don't buy the idea that people only play Smash Bros or Nintendo games for nostalgia purposes only. Maybe some do, sure, but I never really liked the Wii, and even though I am enjoying the Wii U quite a bit, I didn't get past the second world of New Super Mario Bros U that came bundled with it, because I thought it was too bland and boring.
Yes, Nintendo recycles their old properties a lot, but to paraphase the end of his Shovel Knight video, I don't play Nintendo games simply out of nostalgia, but because Nintendo still makes their old stuff well, and that old stuff does what I want that new stuff doesn't do.
Damn it, Yahtzee, do you know how hard it is to defend your stance in this argument when all you're doing is trying to shoot yourself in the foot?
Yes, we know you don't like fighting games. Great. Yes, we know you don't like multiplayer games. Obvious. Yes, we know you have a love for narrative driven stories within games. Old hat at this point.
That should have been all you needed to say. But no.
You had to start "defending" your reasoning by giving incorrect information; you know you're only going to give people who are against you ammunition to fire back.
You've based your whole argument against SSB as if you're treating it like a classic Street Fighter style game...when SSB's rise to fame was the fact that it was a well game fighting game that was about a far away as you could get from Street Fighter styled fighting games. There are no fancy button inputs. There are no insane frame-perfect-super-combo-counter-thingies. It's insanely simple, yet with a high skill ceiling. This is why the game series became so popular.
And what makes it worse is your Dark Souls analogy. Possibly the most tame thing said on the matter, but the most easily thrown against you. You like games where you look for enemy tells, then either attack, dodge, or block? Well that's literally all that you do in smash bros. This isn't Street Fighter. This isn't Tekken. There are no counters, high guards, low guards, grapples, sweeps, breaks, or what have you. All you do in smash is attack, dodge, and block. Your opponent is doing a weak attack, you block and ready a counter attack. Your opponent is doing a powerful attack with a huge tell, you dodge roll and strike from behind. It's almost like...Dark Souls.
In the future, just say you don't like the fighting genre, multiplayer only games, and prefer story-focused stuff. We all know this by now, we've all been SAYING this to the people asking "where's da smash bruhs revuw?" But for the love of Shiva, don't try to justify it by arguing over the mechanics and specifics when you barely know anything about the mechanics and specifics. I hate JRPGs for their often slow, eye-rolling plots, but I'm not going to grab FF7 out of the crowd and try to guess plot points to prove myself to everyone.
Yes, we know you don't like fighting games. Great. Yes, we know you don't like multiplayer games. Obvious. Yes, we know you have a love for narrative driven stories within games. Old hat at this point.
That should have been all you needed to say. But no.
You had to start "defending" your reasoning by giving incorrect information; you know you're only going to give people who are against you ammunition to fire back.
You've based your whole argument against SSB as if you're treating it like a classic Street Fighter style game...when SSB's rise to fame was the fact that it was a well game fighting game that was about a far away as you could get from Street Fighter styled fighting games. There are no fancy button inputs. There are no insane frame-perfect-super-combo-counter-thingies. It's insanely simple, yet with a high skill ceiling. This is why the game series became so popular.
And what makes it worse is your Dark Souls analogy. Possibly the most tame thing said on the matter, but the most easily thrown against you. You like games where you look for enemy tells, then either attack, dodge, or block? Well that's literally all that you do in smash bros. This isn't Street Fighter. This isn't Tekken. There are no counters, high guards, low guards, grapples, sweeps, breaks, or what have you. All you do in smash is attack, dodge, and block. Your opponent is doing a weak attack, you block and ready a counter attack. Your opponent is doing a powerful attack with a huge tell, you dodge roll and strike from behind. It's almost like...Dark Souls.
In the future, just say you don't like the fighting genre, multiplayer only games, and prefer story-focused stuff. We all know this by now, we've all been SAYING this to the people asking "where's da smash bruhs revuw?" But for the love of Shiva, don't try to justify it by arguing over the mechanics and specifics when you barely know anything about the mechanics and specifics. I hate JRPGs for their often slow, eye-rolling plots, but I'm not going to grab FF7 out of the crowd and try to guess plot points to prove myself to everyone.
I think its more likely to sell if it had all the nintendo properties and controlled like ass then if it was a good fighting game with no recognizable characters. But I find smash has both so I don't mind.Gladion said:
OT: I think this article highlights is inexperience with fighting games but that's the point. Do you look that closely at something that you don't like that much? Maybe he could do better since he is paid to do it but he hasn't done an official review so it doesn't matter if he is paid or not.
Ultimately I don't think it matterrs since its a multiplayer focused game that not only doesn't appeal to Yatzee's sensibilities but as he is introverted, its physically exhausting. And computer players aren't really a fair judge of the experience of the game.
Not counting last year, you have to go back over a decade to find a year when Valve didn't release a game.Thunderous Cacophony said:
2013 - DotA 2
2012 - Counterstrike GO
2011 - Potal 2
2010 - Alien Swarm
2009 - Left 4 Dead 2
2008 - Left 4 Dead
2007 - Half Life 2 Ep 2
2006 - Half Life 2 Ep 1
2005 - Day of Defeat Source
2004 - Half Life 2, Counterstrike Source and Condition Zero
2003 - Day of Defeat
2001 - Half Life: Blue Shift
2000 - Counterstrike
1999 - Team Fortress, Half Life: Opposing Force
1998 - Half Life
That's two years out of the last 16 in which they haven't released a game, not counting the many ports to other platforms which is still a fair amount of work even if it doesn't result in a new game. That's actually a lot more than many developers. Yes, we know they still haven't made Half Life 3, but let's stop pretending they don't make games at all. If that list isn't enough to make Valve a developer, then CoD can't exist because Infinity Ward certainly isn't one either.
Nazulu said:
Nah, I also like his insight in many areas. However, he has specific areas that he excels in and those areas just don't include fighting games(or real time strategy). I also don't think there would be that much to gain from him going in depth about mechanics that he doesn't enjoy in the first place.
It also seems too much to consider him a professional when it comes to all games/genres, that's a lot of ground to cover for anyone.
Sorry, needed to shorten this-Dragmire- said:
You're probably right about those 'specific areas', but I can't help but think that he chooses to ignore certain genres for the wrong reasons, some of them shared in this article even. Such as, I don't understand how he could enjoy a Sim City game but not 2 shits about the RTS genre, especially when one of those actually has an unfolding story. It really seems like one certain thing can make him more critical towards it and then he decides he won't bother with any of that genre anymore, giving it no chance to redeem itself. As much as I like his Halo Wars review, I can't ignore that he just decided to drop RTS games altogether because of one stupidly designed mission.
What do you think? I know he doesn't want anyone to recommend any of the others to him, but don't think one of the great RTS games might turn out to be a surprise? I am going by my own experiences here. I'm not a fan of the FPS genre at all, but I decided to give certain popular franchises a chance, and I'm still stunned out how great Half Life is. Do you think that's impossible for Yahtzee?
Yeah! Post 6000 baby!
So what you're saying is they haven't made a real game since 2011. (Portal 2)Kahani said:
Counterstrike remake/report/whatever. And Dota 2 is just a port of Dota with better graphics and a better multiplayer framework.
Three years, no new games, and no major project they're working on? Yeah, safe to say they stopped making games.
Personally I actually like that yathzee isn?t reviewing smash bros, he?s made it perfectly clear that he doesn?t like or even understands fighting games and smash bros, so a review would just be a waste of his and our time, nor would it really add anything to the discussion.
Also for somebody who claims that he has no problem with Nintendo, yathzee sure does like to attack its fans a lot.
Also for somebody who claims that he has no problem with Nintendo, yathzee sure does like to attack its fans a lot.
Just to shove my nose in places here, I would say that at one point or another in the life of an expert (this being a relative term here), literally any reason or excuse becomes good enough - and "I don't wanna"/"its got this one thing I don't like" become go-to.Nazulu said:
The thing is, in order to remain an expert on something, it actually requires pretty extended and regular consumption of that item - for me its technical manuals and practice, for yahtzee its videogames/writing and practice(lucky git). Adding in another thing to your expertise gets harder and harder over time, because now in addition to the actual work part of your job (work only counts as practice for that specific area of course) you have yet another thing to keep up with on your own time. Eventually you either run out of time, brainspace, or will - and the best way to save on all of those is to more or less arbitrarily cut out chunks of your field. In my case its masonry and wood. I avoid those entirely to save on my own sanity and allow me to sharpen skills elsewhere.
It feels weird to compare what yahtzee does and what I do, but on a basic level its exactly the same. No matter what you do for a living at one point or another you run out of time and brain to keep it all sharp, and it becomes clear early on that hard choices and rationing are the only way you can make it to retirement.
*cough*A Link Between Worlds farce 'review'*cough*Yahtzee said:
Y'know, some of us still have attention spans (and memory) longer than a goldfish.
You may assert that you did that because you like the WiiU's model but hate all the nostalgia bombs Nintendo has done, and that's fair (I largely agree). But in that same video you also damned every game Nintendo has produced since Super Mario Galaxy, which is hard to interpret as anything BUT holding a grudge.
Oh, resorting to genetic fallacy again are we?
Maybe if you stopped painting the opposition with one broad stroke, this wouldn't be much of an issue for you.
After all, if everyone that disagrees with you even a tiny amount is a 'frothy-mouthed rabid' fan then...
...perhaps the problem is being slightly overblown.
I mean, seriously. Seven years of this and you still haven't caught on that nobody believes you?
If my point isn't clear, let me spell it out: It's hard to take your word of there being no grudge when you deliberately paint ANYONE pointing out your bias as being frothing mad Nintendo fanboys. I have little love for Nintendo's games or systems as of late, but even I can see your bias against Nintendo seeping through your own phrasing: "loyalty that Nintendo seems to demand of anyone...".
Frankly, you sound less interested in convincing your audience of your position on Nintendo, and more yourself.
I suppose that's unsurprising, considering...
...you're quite full of yourself already.
Yahtzee, you used to be fun and insightful. This? This is just spiteful and bitter.
It'd be a real surprise if they didn't; Over half the article is dedicated towards Smash Bros and Nintendo.irishda said:
Also: Yahtzee inventing bullshit excuses like...
...tends to rile some folks up.
This isn't a case of just being a difference of opinion, Yahtzee is asserting falsehoods either out of pure ignorance or contempt, just to make himself look better by comparison.
He doesn't have to like the fighter genre; hell, I'm don't like the genre much myself, but even I wouldn't be so stupid and callous to insult everyone that does like it by saying that skill doesn't matter at all.
Funnily enough Ubisoft while being a worse company than EA, (I play games on PC), published one of my most liked games for 2014. Valiant Hearts. I don't know what is happening with Ubisoft, their AAA games range from awful to bland, but their smaller games tend to be good.
How? How do his actions NOT prove that he doesn't hate or at least dislike Nintendo? His unprovoked ranting about them indicates otherwise. Trying to say "well, but he says liked the Mario platformers" has a couple of terms that can best describe it: hollow, token, using as a shield, etc. In fact, I can pretty much say no one is losing sleep if he never reviewed Nintendo games again, mostly because those reviews have become boring and predictable to watch. We all know his criticisms of the company and we'd rather he just move on. No one is twisting his arm about them and no one bugs him over them (though considering he's now mentioned how he hasn't reviewed SSB three times, I'm started to wonder if he really DOES just want someone to ask him why he hasn't reviewed it). Now, if he skipped out on reviewing, say, the new Assassin's Creed, anything from Valve, Call of Duty, etc THEN we might be interested. Nintendo games though, eh, anyone can guess that.Thanatos2k said:
It's because their AAA titles are starting to blur together. Seriously, how many of them are A) sandboxes that B) have you liberate places in order to open up the map and C) are padded out with boring, meaningless tedium? It's like they're trying to create some kind of apex game that is flexible in anything they want it to be, thus eliminating the need to be varied and thus can churn it out with zero effort. And that's before we get into how badly Ubisoft is managing their IP portfolio.octafish said:
I've heard this before, but didn't think it would go for video games. I guess I may be under-estimating the difference between the knowledge and skill set required for each type of game.EvilRoy said:
Your nose shoving is appreciated. I'll take that on board.