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Silvanus

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ravenshrike said:
Had you merely demanded proof, that would not have been an issue. But then you get picky. You demand it from a source that is not Beale, not because you have any reason to believe that he is dishonest other than he is an abrasive asshole with views different from yours. Done.
Actually, I didn't say that. What I said was, "I'm not inclined to trust the word" of Beale. I'm not taking hearsay at face-value.

ravenshrike said:
That gigantic wall o text is the proof. Moreover, I tell you where you yourself can CONFIRM said proof.
...Only by saying I should read said wall of text. Just give me something that takes less time than it takes an Ent to finish a conversation to read and I'll read it.

ravenshrike said:
You then DISMISS said proof and effectively say, okay, they were log rolling the Nebulas, the same sort of people are involved in the Hugo noms every year and said log rolling is patently against the rules, but unless you present proof that the nominations weren't worthy then that doesn't matter.
Uhrm, I asked for the relevant section, that's all; I didn't "dismiss" it, I asked you to save me the age it would take to read. I didn't "effectively say" they were log-rolling the nebulas; I said the same few people were nominating, but you can't really blame them for the fact that other people weren't nominating.

It also doesn't evidence that they were voting without regard to merit.

ravenshrike said:
I point out the execreble Redshirts. And then, THEN, you tell me to calm down. Why in the Nine Hells of Baator should I? Where EXACTLY, are your goalposts? Should my source have four SJW grandparents to become acceptable perhaps?
My goalposts are, "some evidence, not hearsay, and please provide me with the relevant section".

Unreasonable, I know. I asked you to "calm down" because you've adopted a condescending, insulting tone-- which is unwarranted, as my request was fair and fairly stated.
 

rgrekejin

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As a lifelong reader of science fiction, I feel somewhat conflicted about this. To me, a book that wins the Hugo is a book that goes on the reading list, no questions asked. I've read every novel that's ever won one, and as many of the winners in other categories as I can get my hands on. Looking back at some of the names and books that have won it, you can feel the weight of history associated with the title of "Hugo Winner". I also tend to consider myself a pretty apolitical reader - oftentimes when I read a book I won't even look to see who wrote it, and only really take note if I either really liked or really hated the book, so I know who to seek out more of and who to avoid. So when I'm reading something, I usually don't even really know who wrote it, let alone what their politics are.

So in that respect, the claims of the Puppies to be nominating works solely on quality ring a little hollow. Larry Correia writes popcorn flick gun-porn. It's not bad by any means, and it can entertain an audience, but that sort of fare lost any sense of newness for me after Robert Asprin wrote the Rolling Thunder belt-fed shotgun into the 'Phule's Company' books. I've only read one collection of Brad Torgersen's work, a short story collection called 'Lights in the Deep'. I found it utterly unremarkable. Not bottom-of-the-barrel bad, just... unremarkable. Nothing against either man personally, I just don't think their work to date has been Hugo-quality. I doubt if I've ever read anything by Vox Day. In fact, I'm quite certain I have not. Maybe I should sometime, just to see if all this fuss is really warranted.

Maybe the tastes of the Puppy voters differ from mine, and they really think all these things are the best works of the year in review. Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with the Hugo voters. I've never understood the appeal of Joe Haldeman, and regard both his best novel winners ('Forever War' and 'Forever Peace') to be absolute rubbish. Great as Isaac Asimov was, I feel like his win for 'Foundation's Edge' was a bit like Al Pacino's Oscar for 'Scent of a Woman' - sort of a make-up award for past works overlooked, rather than a meaningful commentary on the work at hand. Hell, J.K. Rowling won the 2001 Hugo for 'Goblet of Fire' over a relatively weak slate of novels that didn't even manage to include the hands-down best novel that year, Tim Powers's breathtaking 'Declare'.

Heck, it may even be that the tastes of the non-Puppy Hugo voters are diverging from my own. I've been supremely disappointed with the last two Best Novel winners - I found 'Ancillary Justice' pretty underwhelming, and although I have no problem with giving 'Redshirts' a Hugo, the one it actually got was in the wrong bloody category! 'Redshirts' was a Best Related Work if there ever was one, but it's an embarrassment as a Best Novel. In fact, I don't think we've had a truly great Best Novel Hugo winner since 2007, when 'Rainbows End' took the prize.

All of which brings me, I suppose, to what is probably the controversial part of this post.

Knowing what I know now about his politics, and having seen the reaction to his nomination play out in real time, I've got to believe there's no way John Wright would ever have been on a Hugo shortlist without the Puppy slate.

Which is a shame, because he's one of the best SF writers I've ever read.

He writes like a cross between Gene Wolfe (Who, for my money, is the best living English-language writer. Not SF writer, just writer, period... come to think of it, how has Gene Wolfe never won a Hugo?) and E.E. Smith. He can adapt his style to reflect that of another author when writing in-universe better than anyone I've ever seen. His imitation of A.E. van Vogt in 'Null A Continuum' was spot-on, but his William Hope Hodgson pastiche, 'Awake in the Night Land' might have been better than the original. And Big Picture stories... no one does Big Picture stories like Wright. The sheer scale he's envisioned in 'Count to the Eschaton' is unlike anything I've seen in a very long time.

And yet, as far as I can tell, he's never even been considered for a major award before this year. Why? If it's because of his politics, that would make some sense. There was enormous enthusiasm for him when he first burst on to the scene, but since then, it seems like he's been quietly shunted off to the backroom somewhere, and Tor never really seems to promote or even really talk about him much. I stumbled on him basically by accident - it certainly wasn't through normal SF channels. And it isn't like his politics really come through in his work. Well, his SF work - I understand that 'Transhuman and Subhuman' is uncomfortably polemic in places, (I haven't read it) but it's a collection of essays, not a story.

Since this whole brouhaha has whipped up, I've looked into the politics of a couple of authors, something I almost never do. While I suspect Wright isn't as bad as he's being made out to be here and a lot of other places, I admit there's plenty there to find objectionable. But I'm also a pretty strong believer in separating the art from the artist, even in the super-icky cases, like Woody Allen... although I've never liked Woody Allen, so maybe it's easier for me than most. So, in the end, I'm mostly just left confused about how to feel about this whole thing. I'm not a fan of slate voting, but I've seen enough evidence to know that it's always been at least a little bit of a thing. I'm not a fan of nominating stories solely due to author politics, which it appears has probably happened. But I'm also against blackballing stories based on author politics, which the vehement anti-Puppy backlash has made clear to me probably also happens. I guess the best thing for me to do at this point is just wash my hands of the whole affair and wait and see what happens. In the meantime, I'll keep doing what I always do - read stuff without really caring who the author is.
 

kurokotetsu

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ZiggyE said:
"Rigged" was hyperbole, but is there discrimination against conservative writers by the voterbase is recent years? Absolutely. I haven't been following this thread so I don't know if this was posted already, but it's a good run down of the situation.

http://difficultrun.nathanielgivens.com/2015/04/14/sad-puppy-data-analysis/
Interesting article, poor analysis. First, the devide in "publisher" submission is only for one branch of one publisher and not a general trend. And it's only submission, we don't know the makeup of published works (which could explain the later chart abou higher female note on GOodreads).

Second, the charts are horrible, almost unreadable. And convey unaccurate information. ALl recen winners are over 3.6 and the "chasm" is sometimes less tha .5 (or ina over ten system, less than a point, less than ten percent of possible points) and sometimes as low as .2. The difference is exagerated by the scale used. THe highest difference is ana anomaly recognized by the text itself.

Third, speaking if the text, he says that COrreira Warbound is far higher than the winner that year. It alos has a fifth of the reviews (and both under what he conisders the average number of reviews). Those numbers mean it may be altered.

Fourht he only uses the average. He completely disregards the standar deviation (a simple tool he could've used) which means that the "anomalous" short run may fall perfectly within the acceptable and statistical expectations of results. Hell the "short run" (which is tooo short for a run really, only three years) is only deviated form the "average" by .3 points again less that 10% of the possible points that a book might get. THat is hardly a chams or great devide or anything It is pretty small.

Interesting but very flawed and not proving SP points at all. Least that there is a clique. Just that thee last 4 years some nominees where more liked. But Correira work presented here has a better score that Don Quixote in general and doubt that says anything at all about what is better.
Ambient_Malice said:
I've noted in the past that Vox Day is an arsehole. But he hasn't, IMO, ACTUALLY advocated the truly horrible shit attributed to him. In particular, his supposed support for honor killings and acid attacks on women and such. From my research, any such statements have been rhetorical thought experiments designed to illustrate how he doesn't believe these things, but logically, or so he thinks, his opponents must for whatever reason.

He also may possibly be prejudiced against black people. I'm undecided simply because there's only really one incident I know of.
From what I see in this blog post http://voxday.blogspot.mx/2012/06/scientist-beats-up-pz.html where the allegatiosn come from, VD doesn't say his opponents propose those. He goes into a discussion between two bloggers about the benefits of religion form an evolutionary stand point, ans takes PZ Myers' rethorical questions about terrible religious practices and answers them in a "logical" way. ANd what I see problematic is his "Logical hypothesis" being terrible with statements like "Because female independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills." and "Because female promiscuity and divorce are strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills" as "logical" reasons why those things are accepted. Putting forth those "hypothesis" as a possible answer to questions of "What is good about honour killings/throwing acid" is a bit telling about his thought process. Of course you may take it as a simple "thought experiment" but reading implications into those hypothesis isn't out of the realm of the reasonable.

Also tried to read ravenshriek's proof. The bile was so hideous and the slanted politics so obvious and the style so infurating I couldn't do it. THe "proof" seem to be two articles and time and grand chest puffing wihtout any true show of facts about the "liberal bias" or the "existance of a clique" beyond the especulatiosn of a writer. Hardly proof and barely readable.
 

Silvanus

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ravenshrike said:
The relevant section? What, you think TNH and PNH screamed from the rooftops their collusion? That was a 3000 word analysis of the evidence that is available and exactly how it proves collusion. There is no single sentence of 'proof' and you demand not to be fed 'hearsay'. As such, one must assume you want the evidence itself. Yet you are too lazy to read said evidence. Tis an impossible conundrum to solve.
There's really no way to cut down the essay? That would kind of suggest really bad structuring, but I'll read it when I have the time.
 

Schadrach

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Silvanus said:
Still, is there actually any reason to believe these books were judged without reference to quality? All we have is the hearsay of (extremely dubious) individuals.
Who is claiming this? Let me put it another way: If I ask you for the list of your top 10 games ever, and the list of your top ten indie games ever, I'd be willing to bet that both lists will contain good games with an eye for quality, but that AAA titles will be excluded from the second list regardless of quality (because being a AAA title would actively exclude them).

This is what is being alleged happened with the Hugos in recent years. It's not that quality isn't considered, but that some works are being excluded on the basis of the politics of their authors. To put it in a way that might make more sense, they're saying that if it were written today, Ender's Game wouldn't even be nominated for a Hugo (as opposed to winning Best Novel like it did) because Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage.

Silvanus said:
EDIT: On a side-note, and spoken generally, the notion that "good" or classic sci-fi/ Fantasy has typically been free of strong political/social themes seems bizarrely ignorant to me. To discount strongly political work in Science Fiction, one would have to discount Isaac Asimov, Arthur Clark, Frank Herbert, Philip K. Dick-- some of the greatest contributors ever. To discount it in Fantasy, you would have to discount Tolkein, which is enough said.
Again, who is claiming this? The closest I've seen is people claiming that "good" or classic sci-fi/fantasy does not all follow the same or similar political lines, that is, that a specific political ideology is not a requirement. When people claim that the SP3 slate is apolitical, they aren't claiming that the works are individually apolitical or that being apolitical is a sign of merit in a work, but rather that the politics of the works and their authors is not a determinant for selection.

Basically, the allegation is that recent Hugo nominations have essentially been "best sci-fi/fantasy books that also pass a political litmus test" rather than "best sci-fi/fantasy books." SP2 I think did a pretty good job of demonstrating that by getting a nominee up who was a rather nutty fringe conservative and watching people flip their shit over it last year. SP3 has basically shown that the handful who could essentially control the awards because of, well, voter apathy can be rather trivially overthrown if you just get out the vote (it's worth noting that Sad Puppies 3 did nothing wrong, they just encouraged people to vote, and to vote for their slate).

It's also worth noting that one of Wright's nominations has been disqualified for reasons that didn't disqualify people in previous years. Almost like they're applying different rules to some works than others.
 

Silvanus

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Schadrach said:
Who is claiming this? Let me put it another way: If I ask you for the list of your top 10 games ever, and the list of your top ten indie games ever, I'd be willing to bet that both lists will contain good games with an eye for quality, but that AAA titles will be excluded from the second list regardless of quality (because being a AAA title would actively exclude them).

This is what is being alleged happened with the Hugos in recent years. It's not that quality isn't considered, but that some works are being excluded on the basis of the politics of their authors. To put it um a way that might make more sense, they're saying that if it were written today, Ender's Game wouldn't even be nominated for a Hugo (as opposed to winning Best Novel like it did) because Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage.
Right, but that's unsubstantiated. Its a claim of prioritising ideology above merit, and its without substantiation.

Again, who is claiming this? The closest I've seen is people claiming that "good" or classic sci-fi/fantasy does not all follow the same or similar political lines, that is, that a specific political ideology is not a requirement. When people claim that the SP3 slate is apolitical, they aren't claiming that the works are individually apolitical or that being apolitical is a sign of merit in a work, but rather that the politics of the works and their authors is not a determinant for selection.
Brad Torgerson did, bemoaning how "these days" novels might turn out to be about egalitarianism or what-not rather than simply "rousing stories" like in the past. The quote is on page 3.

It's also worth noting that one of Wright's nominations has been disqualified for reasons that didn't disqualify people in previous years. Almost like they're applying different rules to some works than others.
I'll have a look.
 

Nielas

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ravenshrike said:
Rigged wasn't hyperbole. They controlled prior to SP the nominations process completely being the only clique large enough. If you control the noms entirely, then the winner doesn't really matter. Moreover, due to australian rules voting, they could ensure than any work that miraculously made it through the noms they didn't approve of tanked in the final voting process. That is the DEFINITION of rigged.
Actually that is the definition of democratic voting. The candidate with the most votes gets selected. The Hugos are voted on by fans and the nominations are also voted on. I have not heard any accusations of "ballot stuffing" or fake results so there does not seem to be any 'rigging' going on.
 

Schadrach

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Silvanus said:
Schadrach said:
Who is claiming this? Let me put it another way: If I ask you for the list of your top 10 games ever, and the list of your top ten indie games ever, I'd be willing to bet that both lists will contain good games with an eye for quality, but that AAA titles will be excluded from the second list regardless of quality (because being a AAA title would actively exclude them).

This is what is being alleged happened with the Hugos in recent years. It's not that quality isn't considered, but that some works are being excluded on the basis of the politics of their authors. To put it um a way that might make more sense, they're saying that if it were written today, Ender's Game wouldn't even be nominated for a Hugo (as opposed to winning Best Novel like it did) because Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage.
Right, but that's unsubstantiated. Its a claim of prioritising ideology above merit, and its without substantiation.

Again, who is claiming this? The closest I've seen is people claiming that "good" or classic sci-fi/fantasy does not all follow the same or similar political lines, that is, that a specific political ideology is not a requirement. When people claim that the SP3 slate is apolitical, they aren't claiming that the works are individually apolitical or that being apolitical is a sign of merit in a work, but rather that the politics of the works and their authors is not a determinant for selection.
Brad Torgerson did, bemoaning how "these days" novels might turn out to be about egalitarianism or what-not rather than simply "rousing stories" like in the past. The quote is on page 3.

It's also worth noting that one of Wright's nominations has been disqualified for reasons that didn't disqualify people in previous years. Almost like they're applying different rules to some works than others.
I'll have a look.
Sasquan, the 2015 Worldcon, has made changes to the final Hugo ballot to reflect eligibility rulings by Hugo administrator John Lorentz.
?Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus? by John C. Wright was previously published on a web site in 2013 prior to its inclusion in The Book of Feasts & Seasons in 2014, so it is not eligible for the 2015 Novelette Hugo.
John Scalzi declared Old Man's War as self-published in 2002. Three years later it was published by Tor in 2005 and was nominated as Best Novel in 2006. Wright never claimed to have self-published the story in question. He had posted some work in progress on his website, which was removed when he signed a contract to have it published.

So having self-published something doesn't count as publishing it and thus discount you from nominations once it is published, but posting some work in progress until a publisher picks it up does?

Unless you can find some point between 2006 and 2014 (read: after Scalzi's nomination but before this year) where they changed how that should be handled and applied it to the kinds of works that the allegation is are being favored, then I'd consider that holding some works to different rules than others.
 

rgrekejin

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Schadrach said:
John Scalzi declared Old Man's War as self-published in 2002. Three years later it was published by Tor in 2005 and was nominated as Best Novel in 2006. Wright never claimed to have self-published the story in question. He had posted some work in progress on his website, which was removed when he signed a contract to have it published.

So having self-published something doesn't count as publishing it and thus discount you from nominations once it is published, but posting some work in progress until a publisher picks it up does?

Unless you can find some point between 2006 and 2014 (read: after Scalzi's nomination but before this year) where they changed how that should be handled and applied it to the kinds of works that the allegation is are being favored, then I'd consider that holding some works to different rules than others.
To be fair, the administrator of Sasquan has weighed in on this, saying that he believes that it was wrong to allow 'Old Man's War' on the 2006 ballot and that it wouldn't be accepted if it was nominated today, but it's probably too late to do anything about it now.
 

Silvanus

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Schadrach said:
Sasquan, the 2015 Worldcon, has made changes to the final Hugo ballot to reflect eligibility rulings by Hugo administrator John Lorentz.
?Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus? by John C. Wright was previously published on a web site in 2013 prior to its inclusion in The Book of Feasts & Seasons in 2014, so it is not eligible for the 2015 Novelette Hugo.
John Scalzi declared Old Man's War as self-published in 2002. Three years later it was published by Tor in 2005 and was nominated as Best Novel in 2006. Wright never claimed to have self-published the story in question. He had posted some work in progress on his website, which was removed when he signed a contract to have it published.

So having self-published something doesn't count as publishing it and thus discount you from nominations once it is published, but posting some work in progress until a publisher picks it up does?

Unless you can find some point between 2006 and 2014 (read: after Scalzi's nomination but before this year) where they changed how that should be handled and applied it to the kinds of works that the allegation is are being favored, then I'd consider that holding some works to different rules than others.
Yep, looks inconsistent to me.

Examples of poor judgement or inconsistency like this are relatively common, throughout not only award events but institutions of all kinds. When something becomes politicised, as the Hugos have, then such individual examples get held up as an example of something entirely different from a mundane error of human judgement, because it's easy to see things in those terms.

It doesn't make it an entirely rational lens through which to view things, though.

John Lorenz said:
John,In retrospect, ?Old Man?s War? probably should not have been allowed on the ballot in 2006.
But things weren?t as clear-cut when he first posted the novel on his web site in 2002. I was able to attend more Worldcons in the early 2000?s than I have in recent years, and I remember there being a lot of discussion during the business meetings during those years as people tried to define what was meant by ?published? (we were coming out of the years when only only way to distribute stories or books was by printing them on paper).

They finally settled on that it meaning whenever the text was presented to the public, whether it was on a web site, in an e-book or printed on paper.

Now, with many stories and articles being nominated that came from online magazines or sites like Baen.com and Tor.com, there?s no question that web publishing is a major means of publishing. So posting a work on a public web site is treated as equivalent to printing it in a magazine.

I sincerely believe that a situation such as Old Man?s War won?t happen again?as long as the Hugo Administrators are aware of the initial publication. (Since the Hugo Administrators change from year to year, I can?t guarantee that to be the case. But if a future administrator reverted back to how Old Man?s War was treated, I?d certainly disagree with that action and I think most other people would, also.)

[?]
I hope that helps clarify the situation. The Hugo administrators each year are only human, and we all make the occasional mistakes.
If this were something systemic, I'd say it's a very valid concern. I'd say it was right to raise the question here anyway. However, human error strikes me as a far more likely explanation, and it happens all the time.
 

Schadrach

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Silvanus said:
Yep, looks inconsistent to me.

Examples of poor judgement or inconsistency like this are relatively common, throughout not only award events but institutions of all kinds. When something becomes politicised, as the Hugos have, then such individual examples get held up as an example of something entirely different from a mundane error of human judgement, because it's easy to see things in those terms.

It doesn't make it an entirely rational lens through which to view things, though.

John Lorenz said:
John,In retrospect, ?Old Man?s War? probably should not have been allowed on the ballot in 2006.
But things weren?t as clear-cut when he first posted the novel on his web site in 2002. I was able to attend more Worldcons in the early 2000?s than I have in recent years, and I remember there being a lot of discussion during the business meetings during those years as people tried to define what was meant by ?published? (we were coming out of the years when only only way to distribute stories or books was by printing them on paper).

They finally settled on that it meaning whenever the text was presented to the public, whether it was on a web site, in an e-book or printed on paper.

Now, with many stories and articles being nominated that came from online magazines or sites like Baen.com and Tor.com, there?s no question that web publishing is a major means of publishing. So posting a work on a public web site is treated as equivalent to printing it in a magazine.

I sincerely believe that a situation such as Old Man?s War won?t happen again?as long as the Hugo Administrators are aware of the initial publication. (Since the Hugo Administrators change from year to year, I can?t guarantee that to be the case. But if a future administrator reverted back to how Old Man?s War was treated, I?d certainly disagree with that action and I think most other people would, also.)

[?]
I hope that helps clarify the situation. The Hugo administrators each year are only human, and we all make the occasional mistakes.
If this were something systemic, I'd say it's a very valid concern. I'd say it was right to raise the question here anyway. However, human error strikes me as a far more likely explanation, and it happens all the time.
If it was just a ruling they hadn't shaken out entirely at the time, then there's the other obvious test we can place against the history of the Hugos.

Can anyone point out cases where the current rule *was* applied after Old Man's War but before this year? Something like a work in progress on an author's website, not a mass sold e-book edition (as in no, the Kindle edition isn't the same thing).

Otherwise it still creates the appearance of something fishy going on to go "Yeah, we did it wrong before, but we're going to start doing it right conveniently with this one case that's contentious, and where people have been actively looking for reasons to disqualify people on this slate."
 

Falling_v1legacy

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Actually, what you would really want is a similar case PRIOR to Old Man's War. If it was standard policy that was broken, ignored, or forgotten by Old Man's War and then reapplied after, then you might have an argument. However, if the issue simply didn't come up before Old Man's War, then the Occam's Razor explanation is that it was a new situation and that they retroactively felt it set a bad precedent and from then on they were going to apply the new rule.
 

Silvanus

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Schadrach said:
If it was just a ruling they hadn't shaken out entirely at the time, then there's the other obvious test we can place against the history of the Hugos.

Can anyone point out cases where the current rule *was* applied after Old Man's War but before this year? Something like a work in progress on an author's website, not a mass sold e-book edition (as in no, the Kindle edition isn't the same thing).

Otherwise it still creates the appearance of something fishy going on to go "Yeah, we did it wrong before, but we're going to start doing it right conveniently with this one case that's contentious, and where people have been actively looking for reasons to disqualify people on this slate."
Not sure where to get that information; it's a pretty specific thing to find.

Is it not pretty compelling that various other works are routinely disqualified by various rules, though? Another nomination was disqualified alongside Wright, for example, who wasn't on the Puppies' roster. It would show they routinely disqualify regardless of personal belief, at least.
 

TDA WP

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So another update on some of the goings on with Wikipedia. Vox Day's bio is still getting hit with someone trying to use "Freethought blogs" as a "reliable source" for claiming Vox Day supports acid attacks on women [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=656727849&oldid=656727580]. Another attack thrown into the article came from PresN, someone those that followed the GamerGate Wikipedia dispute might recognize [https://archive.today/5eO1x], where he cherry-picked and misrepresentated an interview Vox Day did with another author. The last source is technically allowed in an article since it is an interview with him and thus a primary source, though FTB's incendiary framing of someone else's interview is definitely not allowed as a source.

What it illustrates is how these kinds of defamation attacks can work on Wikipedia. People find the worst thing a person has said on their blog or in an interveiw and start shoving it into the person's bio to make them look bad, often misrepresenting it or taking it out of context. To compare, it would be like if someone used Anita Sarkeesian's worst tweets as sources in her biography and used them to insert statements such as "Anita Sarkeesian expressed satisfaction over the death of Christopher Hitchens" or "Anita Sarkeesian has routinely alleged that school shootings are a product of male culture" in her bio. None of the people doing this to Vox Day's bio would ever allow that kind of defamation attack to occur on her page.
 

Schadrach

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Falling said:
Actually, what you would really want is a similar case PRIOR to Old Man's War. If it was standard policy that was broken, ignored, or forgotten by Old Man's War and then reapplied after, then you might have an argument. However, if the issue simply didn't come up before Old Man's War, then the Occam's Razor explanation is that it was a new situation and that they retroactively felt it set a bad precedent and from then on they were going to apply the new rule.
That depends, are we claiming that Old Man's War was given unusual treatment or that the John C. Wright work is? I'd argue the latter. Evidence that the rule the way it's being applied to JCW is the way it's been applied in the past, and not (as Vox Day and JCW would claim) a new change not announced until it was applied here and made specifically to discount that work is what would be relevant to discount that claim.

You'll also note that no one is particularly complaining about the artist who was disqualified (at least until someone can pull out a qualifying work), or either of the works that were not disqualified despite being previously published in some form because they had been significantly expanded upon (in line with previous precedent, Ender's Game being an example of that rule in use).

Just the one case where they seemingly ignored precedent to rule something controversial disqualified. Which brings up the question of if and to what degree the decision was tied to the controversy.
 

TDA WP

New member
Sep 24, 2014
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Just as expected, after the material on Vox Day's bio had been removed by another editor the admin PresN restored all of it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657129767&oldid=657091986]. It was improved a bit in subsequent editing [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657230859&oldid=657129767], but the cherry-picking itself is staying.
 

Falling_v1legacy

No one of consequence
Nov 3, 2009
116
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@Schadrach
Ah, I see. I thought it was both that were considered abnormal- log rolling and all that. It's hard to know for sure considering so much about this year is abnormal.

@ravenshrike
Is it an example of log rolling? Or is just an example of something winning that you don't think should have won? I for instance, thought that the Lego movie should not only have been nominated for best animated Oscar, but should have won it too. But I don't think that the lack of nomination is an example of logrolling. It really isn't much more than conjecture, but you are treating it like fact.
 

kurokotetsu

Proud Master
Sep 17, 2008
428
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ravenshrike said:
kurokotetsu said:
Also tried to read ravenshriek's proof. The bile was so hideous and the slanted politics so obvious and the style so infurating I couldn't do it. THe "proof" seem to be two articles and time and grand chest puffing wihtout any true show of facts about the "liberal bias" or the "existance of a clique" beyond the especulatiosn of a writer. Hardly proof and barely readable.
So, just to be clear, you were reading the post at Mad Genius Club by Dave Freer which was 5 posts above the Silvanus post I quoted right? Because if you were, I would rather like specific examples of 'bile' in the post. I would also like to know how PNH became prescient. If you weren't, and were reading other posts which by definition weren't meant as proof, I would like to know how you managed to misconstrue them as such. And how you got 'bile' from either of those three.
Didn't count the posts but it was the first thst you made and yes I think itnwas of Dave Freer (the one where you said abou being a friend with a Trotsykist
like it was relevant to something).

The bile I felt came mainly form the excessive use of caps lock. A cursory reading also reveals calling guillible to all the people that don't make the same logic leap based on the unproven assumption that the Nebulas are rigged and so the same people rig the Hugos in the same way, even a layman like me knows that the voting process is different in both. Also making assumptions about statiatics or how it "should" be distributed Which are alos unproven. That is going without detail because I can't stand how he writes (too accusayory and pompous).

About that Nielsen Hayden or whatever (never heard of him not part of the fandom) he was probably leaked. Or not being the editor of a popular magazine maybe he recieved the list early and btoke the embargo, a possibility I don't know if that is how it works it might be as an embargo because people already have the info just aren't supposed to talk about it nit that it still was only in the Hugo administration. Even if he was leaked there is no evidence of what he says being more than his assumptions about why it happened. The whole thing reads (or all the pieces I'be read) as a conspiranoids blog about the Hugos where the only "evidence" is his "logic" about what happened. Even is Mr. Hayden Nielsen was leaked itnproves nothing else that he was leaked.

But that is just how the piece felt to me. But taht there is little to no proof about "rigging" still seems like the position I will hold. Because his interpretation of articles written amd comments is not solid proof. There may be no bile and just my reaction to how it was written (although I expressed why I think there is) but that is no solid proof I still hold that.
 

TDA WP

New member
Sep 24, 2014
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The edit war on Day's page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&offset=20150422000000&action=history&tagfilter] is still raging as the editor, WeldNeck, who has been most persistently removing the attacks from the bio popped in again [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657329251&oldid=657323066]. Another editor arrived to restore it [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657331702&oldid=657329251], followed by an IP [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657376456&oldid=657335254], but it was ultimately kicked out again. Minimal discussion occurred [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Theodore_Beale&oldid=657730137#BLP_concerns] regarding the additions. Barely a day passed before yet another editor jumped in [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657512214&oldid=657482294] with cherry-picking from Day's blogs and inserted various labels such as "neo-fascist" and "white supremacist" to his bio.

There was some wrangling between this editor and WeldNeck that concluded with the other allowing the stuff quote-mined from personal blogs to stay out, but restoring the labels [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theodore_Beale&diff=657564885&oldid=657554853]. At this point that editor, who seemed to appear after a little over three months of inactivity [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Amber388&offset=&limit=500&target=Amber388], had made four reverts over the course of two hours. WeldNeck, who had also made roughly six reverts in a 24-hour period, reported the editor to a noticeboard for edit-warring and after some back and forth with an admin who insisted most of the material was acceptable, he locked the page [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring&oldid=657851807#User:Amber388_reported_by_User:WeldNeck_.28Result:_Protection.29] for a couple days.