The Kids are All Right

[Phoenixmgs]

They would like to be seen to be onboard with them, but that mostly boils down to not opposing them too much and paying lip service, rather than definitely promoting them in a meaningful way.

But when normal people see their method that they used to elect party officials, they think they're fucking crazy.

 

[Silvanus]

If they lost weapon support from their primary packers they would just get it from russia or china. Not like the US is the only weapons manufacturer.

Russia and China have been significantly more hesitant about providing lethal support to Israel than America. Israel knows that in order to maintain its current international support-- on which it heavily relies-- it needs to maintain some illusion of plausible deniability. They've pushed that about as far as they can possibly go already.

I don't recall saying that, are you sure you don't have a mouse on your head?

What was all that irrelevant stuff about the Rwandan genocide, then?

 

[Worgen]

Russia and China have been significantly more hesitant about providing lethal support to Israel than America. Israel knows that in order to maintain its current international support-- on which it heavily relies-- it needs to maintain some illusion of plausible deniability. They've pushed that about as far as they can possibly go already.

That's because the US is already providing them weapons. Israel is pragmatic, if we stop selling them weapons they will go to russia or china and either of them will be super happy to provide since having an ally in that area is really useful.

What was all that irrelevant stuff about the Rwandan genocide, then?

Because I would expect some numbers closer to their numbers if this was a genocide. Like at least 10% of the population by now.

 

[Seanchaidh]

If they lost weapon support from their primary packers they would just get it from russia or china.

with whose money?

That's because the US is already providing them weapons. Israel is pragmatic, if we stop selling them weapons they will go to russia or china and either of them will be super happy to provide since having an ally in that area is really useful.

they already have Iran, which they would lose if they did that.

 

[Silvanus]

That's because the US is already providing them weapons. Israel is pragmatic, if we stop selling them weapons they will go to russia or china and either of them will be super happy to provide since having an ally in that area is really useful.

Look, you can speculate that they'd be exactly as capable without US support all you like. But the fact is, the government of Israel has decided it needs international & domestic support, and that pushing it beyond breaking point must be avoided. Hence a piecemeal, plausible-deniability approach.

Governments-- even authoritarian and repressive ones-- require the acquiescence of their people and the world at large. And so, when they pursue their worst impulses, they will dress it up, or hire it, or go slowly and deny its happening.

Because I would expect some numbers closer to their numbers if this was a genocide. Like at least 10% of the population by now.

So you are using one of the worst genocides in modern history as a benchmark, and concluding that if this doesn't approach it, it cannot be ethnic cleansing. Can you not see how utterly inane that is? Plus, the Rwandan genocide led directly to the fall of the government perpetrating it. So obviously more cautious powers will avoid emulating it.

Besides which, we've already established that ethnic cleansing isn't simply about absolute numbers dead. The population of Gaza has reduced by 6%.

 

[Worgen]

So you are using one of the worst genocides in modern history as a benchmark, and concluding that if this doesn't approach it, it cannot be ethnic cleansing. Can you not see how utterly inane that is? Plus, the Rwandan genocide led directly to the fall of the government perpetrating it. So obviously more cautious powers will avoid emulating it.

Besides which, we've already established that ethnic cleansing isn't simply about absolute numbers dead. The population of Gaza has reduced by 6%.

All I'm hearing from you is that there is a war going on, which we agree on. I am curious, is what Hamas would like to do, would you consider it ethnic cleansing?

 

[Silvanus]

All I'm hearing from you is that there is a war going on, which we agree on.

Then you're not listening. A war against Hamas doesn't somehow necessitate the targeted slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians, the displacement of 80% of the population, or the expulsion of people of specific ethnic groups from swathes of territory. That is categorically ethnic cleansing according to all relevant definitions, and is recognised as such by all independent observers.

I am curious, is what Hamas would like to do, would you consider it ethnic cleansing?

Yes.

 

[Worgen]

Then you're not listening. A war against Hamas doesn't somehow necessitate the targeted slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians, the displacement of 80% of the population, or the expulsion of people of specific ethnic groups from swathes of territory. That is categorically ethnic cleansing according to all relevant definitions, and is recognised as such by all independent observers.

It kinda does if you want to kill hamas. They don't have uniforms, they love to launch attacks from civilian areas, they target civilians, they have no regard for the lives of Palestinians, and they use guerilla tactics (booby traps, pretending to be civilans, using civilians as cover, etc etc).

 

[Silvanus]

It kinda does if you want to kill hamas. They don't have uniforms, they love to launch attacks from civilian areas, they target civilians, they have no regard for the lives of Palestinians, and they use guerilla tactics (booby traps, pretending to be civilans, using civilians as cover, etc etc).

You're genuinely going to argue all of this is proportionate and necessary? The utter devastation, 80% displaced, tens of thousands of women and children dead, the entire hospital sector razed.

This is war crime apologia. If you believe war should have no rules, that all civilians are fair game and warlords should be able to do whatever the fuck they want, then you believe that. The civilised world is supposed to be beyond that grotesque barbarism. Yours is a standard that would see you (and me, and everyone else) dead.

 

[Worgen]

You're genuinely going to argue all of this is proportionate and necessary? The utter devastation, 80% displaced, tens of thousands of women and children dead, the entire hospital sector razed.

This is war crime apologia. If you believe war should have no rules, that all civilians are fair game and warlords should be able to do whatever the fuck they want, then you believe that. The civilised world is supposed to be beyond that grotesque barbarism. Yours is a standard that would see you (and me, and everyone else) dead.

Never said that. My point is that its understandable, not that its proportionate or necessary, they might think it is, but I think it has gone overboard.

I tend to just get annoyed when people pretend that the Palestinians are without sin and that anything they do is easily justified, but any reaction that Israel has is not. Hamas has broken more international law then Israel has, but Israel has much more capacity for destruction then they do. Not to mention that Hamas does not give a shit about the Palestinian people, they would rather lob ineffective rockets into Israel and try to kill a few Israeli civilians then build up Gaza or even just make bomb shelters for its people. But too many people just ignore that and seem to be saying that Israel should just take their shit and shrug and be like "oh well."

 

[Thaluikhain]

Never said that. My point is that its understandable, not that its proportionate or necessary, they might think it is, but I think it has gone overboard.

I tend to just get annoyed when people pretend that the Palestinians are without sin and that anything they do is easily justified, but any reaction that Israel has is not. Hamas has broken more international law then Israel has, but Israel has much more capacity for destruction then they do. Not to mention that Hamas does not give a shit about the Palestinian people, they would rather lob ineffective rockets into Israel and try to kill a few Israeli civilians then build up Gaza or even just make bomb shelters for its people. But too many people just ignore that and seem to be saying that Israel should just take their shit and shrug and be like "oh well."

You seem to be equating the Palestinians and Hamas there.