The Last of Us is no Masterpiece

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I shouldn't have to even deal with lock-on to begin with. I don't even get what strafelock is as no game has it.

It sounds like Dark Souls isn't the game for you. I don't even understand how you think being able to focus on one target is 'archaic' but want a strafelock. If you don't need a lockon because you can just face the right direction, why can't you apply the same logic to blocking? Are you a casual?

Can you name any other game where holding the block button makes your character turn around instead of backpedal? There's a bloody brilliant fucking reason for that. I beat Dark Souls, it was one of the easier PS3 games I've played. Allow for Dark Souls' checkpoint system in any more casual game like an Uncharted or Tomb Raider (only checkpoints are the campfires) and those games are instantly harder than Dark Souls. All you have to do is play careful in Dark Souls, it's not a skill-based difficulty.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The Last of Us is a great game but not a perfect game. I liked the game a lot but it had problems. The AI isn't terrible but it isn't great. It's basically the Uncharted AI which was just okay. It isn't like what Naughty Dog talked about before the game came out anyway, that's for sure. Lots of people will assume when you have problems with a game you hate the game which isn't true. That said all opinions on overall game quality are subjective.

Naughty Dog lied about the AI like Gearbox but Naughty Dog is safe from criticism. But Ubisoft gets blasted because they lie about graphics? It makes no fucking sense. Better AI makes for a much better game, better graphics makes for a marginally better game.

 

[Benpasko]

All you have to do is play careful in Dark Souls, it's not a skill-based difficulty.

In an earlier post IN THIS THREAD you said you couldn't fight multiple enemies effectively because of the block system, now you're saying it's the easiest game ever. Why do I even take the bait.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I don't see how that's possible since A.I. partners in this game spawn right by you the moment you trigger any sort of "cutscene door" or boost-up. Seriously, they could be standing on the other side of the area, and the moment you need hold open a gate or boost someone up they're with you instantly.

Oh, I forget to respond to this. It was the cutscene with Tommy JUST before the shooting scene. Tommy was walking in front of a box and I running all over the room and nothing happened. I tried pushing Tommy so that he'd continue walking but it didn't work. I had to reload. I even seen an enemy once just continually walking into a wall once as well.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

All you have to do is play careful in Dark Souls, it's not a skill-based difficulty.

In an earlier post IN THIS THREAD you said you couldn't fight multiple enemies effectively because of the block system, now you're saying it's the easiest game ever. Why do I even take the bait.

Because I avoided fighting more than one enemy at once, which is rather easy to do.

 

[Evonisia]

The listen mode thing made for interesting stealthing about, but I also feel like it kinda wrecks the story. I'm still really pissed off at the scene where you are inside a building, mere feet away from a Clicker (who can only detect through sound), and Ellie whistles. Mr Main Character than asks what she's doing and she says that she's trying to learn. *****, there's a death plant monster right outside, stop doing that!!

My problem with the game (which I actually liked for the most part) is that it's so predictable and formulaic.

Begin in location. Action section. Talk for a bit. Stealth section. Talk for a bit. Meet character(s). Talk for a bit. Action section. Talk for a bit. Stealth section (sometimes this is replaced by "help little girl across the water"). Characters are dropped from the story. Move to next location. Repeat until final climax.

Edit: Yes you could argue that some other games do something similar but some games like BioShock change the formula a bit or use those sections to do something else with the plot.

Arrive in location. Meet character. Collect things for character. Character exits story. Continue to next section.

The Sander Cohen section is a good example of changing it, as each of the three "collectibles" offer a unique segment of the game you won't find elsewhere.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

I assume that comment isn't directed at me primarily because I just criticised the AI in The Last of Us.

I'm willing to give Naughty Dog the benefit of the doubt here and assume they aren't lying bastards who lied to us in order to take all our money and rather were trying to implement the better AI and it just didn't work out. The game being good also helps. However I was disappointed with the AI that it was basically just the Uncharted AI and wasn't what was in the pre-release demos. As I said the AI wasn't terrible and I really liked the game (I like the Uncharted series too incidentally) but it was a problem with it.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Played some Last of Us for the first time yesterday... played like a perfectly fun game.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

1) If you backpedaled/strafed with a shield up, movement would only be easier on narrow edges because your character would move more slowly.

2) Releasing L1 before turning your character wastes less than a fraction of a second. Having to lock-on to backpedal wastes more time as the game my lock-on to the wrong enemy or not lock-on at all (like when an enemy is on the corner of a wall).

3) I shouldn't have to lock-on to strafe around an enemy.

1: a) I dont want to move slower with my shield up. I should be able to run away from one threat at full speed while still defending against lesser threats in front of me.
b) Not if the narrow ledge isnt completely straight, and you have archers or toxic blow dart hollows shooting at you about once every second or faster, like in Blightown.

If anything, your control idea would lead to a lot more cheap deaths by falling, because the shield you have up locked you to a certain axis of movement.

2: And that fraction of a second could kill you. Every frame counts. This isnt really an issue with locking on because the enemy you're locking onto is usually in clear view and a meter or two away, and there arent many situations where you aggro so many enemies that flicking to the right one is an issue, and if it is, you've probably done something really stupid.

3: Says who? What's wrong with it?

1) You can move at full speed forward if you strafed/backpedaled with a shield up. It would still be easier moving in Blightown with normal controls.

2) USUALLY is the key word there. I have no problem releasing L1 to move when needed as that's how every other fucking game does it.

3) Says every other game ever made ever. I wonder why the Fog Ring was nerfed in PvP?

I assume that comment isn't directed at me primarily because I just criticised the AI in The Last of Us.

I'm willing to give Naughty Dog the benefit of the doubt here and assume they aren't lying bastards who lied to us in order to take all our money and rather were trying to implement the better AI and it just didn't work out. The game being good also helps. However I was disappointed with the AI that it was basically just the Uncharted AI and wasn't what was in the pre-release demos. As I said the AI wasn't terrible and I really liked the game (I like the Uncharted series too incidentally) but it was a problem with it.

I'm pretty sure Naughty Dog wanted better AI and probably wasn't able to quite accomplish their goal. I'm pretty sure they did straight up lie about the reveal E3 video being not scripted though.

Because I avoided fighting more than one enemy at once, which is rather easy to do.

Then the time it takes to switch targets doest really matter, now does it?

Also, Dark Souls is like a 70+ hour game. Why did you take the time to beat it instead of playing a game you actually like?

The game made me play in a different way than what I wanted to solely due to the controls. I didn't hate Dark Souls, I was always waiting for the game to "ramp up" but it never did. It's merely a below average game.

 

[Silver]

I absolutely loathe the fact that The Last of Us is hailed as the best we can do. It's embarrasing in how flawed the storytelling is, and the gameplay is a worse version of what we've been fed for years, and it was pretty poorly designed from the start.

However, of course it's game of the year material. Look at all the other dreg that gets released. A game of the year doesn't have to be good, it just has to be better than every other triple A attempt at reinventing junkfood.

 

[Saulkar]

My primary complaints about the game have been voiced time and time again so I will summarise it as an abject hatred of the gameplay and a love of the story that pisses me off because of the extreme dichotomy of my reactions to the two parts.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

1) No it wouldnt. I still hold that the change in camera angle would lead to a lot more deaths than the good system in place now.

2) That's still needlessly restricting momentum and making the layer unable to defend themselves when re orientating, making them vulnerable to attacks from behind.

3) Not what I asked for, and a red herring. I'll ask again. What is so bad about the lock on system? It works completely fine from my perspective. It takes care of keeping the enemy in sight most of the time so I can focus on maneuvering and fighting more effectively than if I had to keep the fucker in view myself.

1) What change in camera angle? Any other game has no camera angle change whether we are talking Bayonetta, God of War, Dragon's Dogma, Kingdoms of Amalur, Prince of Persia: SoT, Metal Gear Solid 4, etc.

2) The hundredth of a second you are vulnerable not nearly that important; the need to lock-on to backpedal/strafe wastes more time. Momentum isn't being restricted. I released L1 normally in-between enemy attacks to regain stamina.

3) What red herring? The Fog Ring was patched so you could lock-on to an opponent who was wearing it in PvP because it was broken not being able to lock-on. There's no reason for lock-on, I can do everything lock-on in Dark Souls enables me to do in every other game without using fucking lock-on.

 

[Mirroga]

I hate these kinds or topics or even people that label their favorite games as masterpieces. No game is perfect.

I love The Last of Us. It's a fun game with a lot variety in terms of gameplay. The story is also engaging for those who just want the focus of the story to the people involved and not the full-blown event of the infection. But it is by no means perfect or a masterpiece. It has a lot of flaws, especially the AIs. Hell, my favorite game, Shadow of the Colossus is great. But I wouldn't call it the embodiment of gaming perfection that can be understood and loved by all gamers and non-gamers alike.

Also just to make this topic a bit more engaging, I'd like to ask a question to the people who, of course, will bash the game's "masterpiece" label. What game do YOU consider a masterpiece and perfect?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

1) So what, when you bring the shield up the character gets locked into whatever direction he was facing, regardless of where I make him walk, or where the camera is pointed at? Or is he automatically turned to face wherever the camera is pointing?

2) At the very least it's one thirtieth of a second, considering that Dark Souls is capped to 30 FPS. But I cannot possibly see how locking on wastes more time since it's literally a single button press, after which I dont have to worry about reorienting the camera to see my enemy. Your method leads to situations where once you dodge an attack from one of the more agile bosses that ends with him behind you, I have to manually reaim my camera at him. Oh look, while I was trying to find my enemy again, he almost killed me with a 3 hit combo. Let's hope he doesnt do that again before I can use my estus- oh, I died.
That's not genuine difficulty where my fuck ups are MY fault for not knowing his pattern, or letting my guard down. That's cheap, fake difficulty where my fuck ups are due to shit camera controls.

3) I asked for your reasoning why the lock on is shit. Saying some shit about the fog ring or 'Oh, but every other game does this' doesnt tell me anything about that.

1) Like any other game. The camera does not move unless you move it. If you are facing and fighting an enemy say to the right and an enemy starts attacking from the left, you just point the left stick left and press block. If you continue holding block, you will strafe, backpedal, or simply move forward.

2) Bayonetta has way way way more agile enemies than Dark Souls and it's pretty simple to keep track of them. You can move the camera while dodging, how do you lose enemies?

It's fake difficulty that my deaths are due to shit shield controls. Not like Dark Souls has much difficulty to begin with though.

3) If lock-on wasn't important to Dark Souls, why'd they change the Fog Ring? If it was any other game, it wouldn't make a difference because every fucking other game your character attacks in the direction you press the left stick. Then, when you hit the block button, you can strafe and backpedal just fine. But if you can't lock-on, you can't strafe or backpedal in Dark Souls, thus the Fog Ring was changed for PvP purposes.

What game do YOU consider a masterpiece and perfect?

Nothing is really ever perfect and I don't think a 10/10 means perfection either. Bayonetta is about as perfect a game gets, the gameplay is as smooth as it gets. The story matches the tone of the game with plenty of ham and cheese to go around, and it gets epic at the end. Vanquish, another Platinum game, does what it sets out to do extremely well. Shadow of the Colossus is a masterpiece as well. The gameplay is great; yeah, the controls aren't as intuitive as they could be, but once you learn them, they perform as efficiently as any other game, which is what counts. Metal Gear Online was easily the best online shooter of last gen; the aiming was as good as it gets, there was no casual shit like health regen or killstreaks, everything was balanced, there were game rooms (not lame matchmaking), etc. Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence was a masterpiece; Kojima edited himself (more gameplay than cutscenes/codec talking) and the gameplay was top-notch for that era (Subsistence added a much needed free-look camera). Deus Ex is right up there as well. Depending on how much you like the story/characters in the Telltale games, they can be masterpieces as well due to there not being really any gameplay thus there can't be much wrong with it. Journey and Super Mario 3 are a few more examples. Not that these games are all 10s in my book, but at least 9s. I reserve 9s and 10s for very special games, and 5 is average, not 7. I loved TLOU but I'm not giving it more than an 8.5.

 

[gonzo20]

1) If you backpedaled/strafed with a shield up, movement would only be easier on narrow edges because your character would move more slowly.

2) Releasing L1 before turning your character wastes less than a fraction of a second. Having to lock-on to backpedal wastes more time as the game my lock-on to the wrong enemy or not lock-on at all (like when an enemy is on the corner of a wall).

3) I shouldn't have to lock-on to strafe around an enemy.

1: a) I dont want to move slower with my shield up. I should be able to run away from one threat at full speed while still defending against lesser threats in front of me.
b) Not if the narrow ledge isnt completely straight, and you have archers or toxic blow dart hollows shooting at you about once every second or faster, like in Blightown.

If anything, your control idea would lead to a lot more cheap deaths by falling, because the shield you have up locked you to a certain axis of movement.

2: And that fraction of a second could kill you. Every frame counts. This isnt really an issue with locking on because the enemy you're locking onto is usually in clear view and a meter or two away, and there arent many situations where you aggro so many enemies that flicking to the right one is an issue, and if it is, you've probably done something really stupid.

3: Says who? What's wrong with it?

1) You can move at full speed forward if you strafed/backpedaled with a shield up. It would still be easier moving in Blightown with normal controls.

2) USUALLY is the key word there. I have no problem releasing L1 to move when needed as that's how every other fucking game does it.

3) Says every other game ever made ever. I wonder why the Fog Ring was nerfed in PvP?

I assume that comment isn't directed at me primarily because I just criticised the AI in The Last of Us.

I'm willing to give Naughty Dog the benefit of the doubt here and assume they aren't lying bastards who lied to us in order to take all our money and rather were trying to implement the better AI and it just didn't work out. The game being good also helps. However I was disappointed with the AI that it was basically just the Uncharted AI and wasn't what was in the pre-release demos. As I said the AI wasn't terrible and I really liked the game (I like the Uncharted series too incidentally) but it was a problem with it.

I'm pretty sure Naughty Dog wanted better AI and probably wasn't able to quite accomplish their goal. I'm pretty sure they did straight up lie about the reveal E3 video being not scripted though.

Because I avoided fighting more than one enemy at once, which is rather easy to do.

Then the time it takes to switch targets doest really matter, now does it?

Also, Dark Souls is like a 70+ hour game. Why did you take the time to beat it instead of playing a game you actually like?

The game made me play in a different way than what I wanted to solely due to the controls. I didn't hate Dark Souls, I was always waiting for the game to "ramp up" but it never did. It's merely a below average game.

ya know, dmc4 had a lock on system.....

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

3) If lock-on wasn't important to Dark Souls, why'd they change the Fog Ring?

They never said the lock-on wasn't important, they were asking what makes a lock-on centric combat system inherently shit. Of course lock-on is important to Dark Souls, it's the central aspect of its combat system; it would literally be an entirely different game without it.

It's all kind of pointless, though. Lock-on runs counter to your idea of good design. Many people disagree and enjoy that form of combat. The lesson to be learned here is that nobody's ideas of good design are truly universal.

So let's get the topic back onto TLOU!

Personally, I thought the plot was filled with zombie and apocalypse story clichés, but the minute to minute writing and directing made it much less of an issue. I didn't have a problem with knowing people were gonna die, because it gave those deaths weight and importance.

I'm a bit of a weird one, though, in that I liked the game better for its gameplay. It's not incredibly deep or anything, but every shot, every punch, every whack 'round the head with a pipe felt so heavy and powerful. There's such a visceral weight to every animation and sound effect. The stealth was quite simple, but it felt tense and the enemies were dangerous, so it was a lot of fun.

The best bits were the horror based bits though. The flooded hotel basement stands out as my absolute favourite part of the game. The panic run after activating the generator is just tense as fuck.

The game was far from perfect and some bits were very frustrating and seemingly poorly thought out, but for the most part it was one of the year's very best games.