The Last of Us: Plot/Ending Discussion

[Zhukov]

I'm with Joel.

I could sympathize with the Fireflies, but for one crucial thing: They never asked Ellie if she was okay with it. Hell, if they had, she may well have submitted. If they had, and she accepted it, and the game gave you a choice, I would have let them do it.

Of course, Joel didn't ask her either. But between the two parties I'm inclined toward the one who isn't planning on murder. Although I do like that in the end it came down to two people trying to do different versions of the right thing.

Besides, at the end of the day, what kind of parent, even adoptive/surrogate parent, would let their kid essentially be killed in her sleep?

Plus, I've always been a sucker for characters who say, "I'm saving the one(s) I care about and fuck your greater good with an extra large pineapple."

 

[snowmaneddy]

Ellie is a smart girl and even assuming Marlene lied to her and said it was a simple surgery, why would they sedate her for the surgery (she woke up from being sedated in a hospital gown which isn't hard to put two and two together) and then decide "meh, let's not worry about a cure". I think Ellie is much smarter than that. However, I also believe Marlene was completely honest with her as it seems in Marlene's nature. However, even if she wasn't the truth is pretty evident. Thus, I take it that Ellie knows what happened at the hospital in truth if not the details. She is however, willing to accept Joel's lie as truth because she has shown to trust his judgement - and she also can let go of that fear of being alone a bit due to it. It is sort of a professed commitment from Joel in the shape of a lie about something else.

That's my take on it anyways.

I couldn't have said it better! I feel like Ellie can see through Joel in the very final scene when she asks him to swear to her. And like you said, I think that Ellie accepts the lie because she finally sees that Joel was willing to give up humanity's chance at a vaccine for her own sake, and it shows that Joel deeply cares about her (as demonstrated when he repeatedly whispers "baby girl" to Ellie at the end of Winter and while escaping the hospital) and doesn't just see her as special cargo that holds the key to a vaccine (basically, he sees her as a human being).

It might sound kind of twisted/evil of Ellie to accept Joel's lie (and not go through with the vaccine business), but Ellie has gone through a lot of terrible experiences during this journey (particularly during the Winter portion of the game). And it seems like Ellie has somewhat lost her faith in humanity not only because of this journey, but also because everyone she cared about before the journey "has either died or left [her]". And Joel is that one person who has refused to leave her side.

Now that Ellie has found a person who cares for her and whom she cares about, I think that she willingly accepts the lie so that she will never have to be alone again. And one last thing, throughout the journey, she gains a deeper appreciation for life and is very curious about the world (giraffes, college life, etc.), and I feel that she knowingly accepts the lie so that she can have a life of her own for once and not just be vaccine-girl. She might still have survivors' guilt, but Joel is essentially her solution to that problem.

 

[snowmaneddy]

Here's a pretty good link to a post-mortem discussion on the ending (as well as some other nice tidbits about the acting): http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/06/18/major-spoilers-naughty-dog-talks-the-last-of-us-beginning-ending-and-slightly-alternate-ending/

It's implied that Ellie knows about the lie.

 

[Hazy]

Food for thought:

Apparently one of Marlene's voice recorders indicated that the surgeries have been done before UNSUCCESSFULLY. Immune people robbed of their lives because of the scientists' inability to create a vaccine. Anyone able to confirm/deny this?

Anyway, It's hard to either condemn or justify Joel's actions, because this is a world where there are no morals - there is "good" or "bad." Everyone is trying to survive, Joel included, and the only way he can keep on living is with Ellie. Absolute masterpiece of a game, and a title that gets virtually everything right. Naughty Dog once again proves their pedigree for making unmatched experiences.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Absolute masterpiece of a game, and a title that gets virtually everything right. Naughty Dog once again proves their pedigree for making unmatched experiences.

I never expected them to be able to craft such an intense yet restrained drama though.

And points if you noticed the Jak and Daxter pinatas.

Also, is that Savage Starlight a real comic strip or what? Because it seemed remarkably authentic for it to be just a joke comic. Though it wouldn't surprise me with the amount of detail Naughty Dog put in the environment.

 

[Shodan1980]

And points if you noticed the Jak and Daxter pinatas.

Also, is that Savage Starlight a real comic strip or what? Because it seemed remarkably authentic for it to be just a joke comic. Though it wouldn't surprise me with the amount of detail Naughty Dog put in the environment.

On the subject of easter eggs, was the map Joel used while torturing those two guys to get Ellie's location a map of Silent Hill from Silent Hill 2 or was it just me? Its been many years since I saw that map but looked hauntingly familiar.

OT I loved the ending and actually found it quite positive. Ellie was a symbol of hope for both Marlene and Joel. Reading Marlene's diary and listening to her logs she is at the end of her tether. She's given up all hope of ever being free of the responsibility of leading the Fireflies while doubting her fitness as a leader and sees Ellie as her only chance of an end to all of it. I think that's why she's convinced herself that Ellie would be fine with it, she's desperately needs to believe it to justify her course.

And obviously for Joel she's the thing that's currently keeping him alive and has given him the reason he needs to try and make a better life for himself and her by settling down in Tommy's settlement (which I took to have a much better chance of survival than the QZs. The abandoned QZs seemed to have been abandoned more because of insurrections than failings, something unlikely to be an issue for Tommy and his willing group of families). Like others have said Ellie is willing to go along with it all because its the proof she needs she'll never be alone.

 

[Hero of Lime]

I felt pretty conflicted in the end, on one hand if it had been guaranteed that the vaccine had been created and could've been distributed to finally save humanity, I don't think I could do what Joel did. On the other hand, the idea that this experiment could've failed and Ellie would've died pointlessly, or even if a vaccine could be created but the fireflies wouldn't be able to mass produce and distribute it, then Joel's actions are completely justified.

I would've felt better in the ending scene if only Ellie didn't express doubt that Joel hadn't sabotaged the experiment. I'm really glad Ellie didn't die, even if it meant that a vaccine would be lost to humanity, although I'm glad they went back to Tommy's town in the end, it seemed like the last place on Earth that was well organized and fully functional.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

I'm with Joel.

I could sympathize with the Fireflies, but for one crucial thing: They never asked Ellie if she was okay with it. Hell, if they had, she may well have submitted. If they had, and she accepted it, and the game gave you a choice, I would have let them do it.

Of course, Joel didn't ask her either. But between the two parties I'm inclined toward the one who isn't planning on murder. Although I do like that in the end it came down to two people trying to do different versions of the right thing.

Besides, at the end of the day, what kind of parent, even adoptive/surrogate parent, would let their kid essentially be killed in her sleep?

Plus, I've always been a sucker for characters who say, "I'm saving the one(s) I care about and fuck your greater good with an extra large pineapple."

There's one other reason to hate the Fireflies too.

You can learn from Marlene's journal that they wanted Joel to be killed after he got to the hospital. Why I don't know. I mean really.

Firefly 1: Hey you know that guy who fought across this infested hellhole of a country, going against all odds to bring us this girl who is the key to saving all human kind?

Firefly 2: Yeah. That was cool of him. I hear the guys found him trying to save her from drowning. Nice guy.
Anyway, what about him?

Firefly 1: Well, I think we should kill the shit out of him. What do you think?

Firefly 2: F@#K yeah! Lets do that!

Marlene: x( Did the fungus eat some of your brains or something? We ain't doing that!

Firefly 1+2: :'( Aw.......

Don't get me wrong. Joel is no hero.
He's a survivor.

 

[Zhukov]

[snip]

Right outside the hospital, when you meet the giraffes, I realised what was so special about Naughty Dog's apocalypse. It isn't desolate. It isn't a barren wasteland of fear, and hatred, and loathing. This is a beautiful place, reclaimed by nature and full of life.

Much agreed on that point.

A lot of post apocalyptic setting seem to kind of "assume" that the downfall of humanity necessitates the world turning into a wasteland.

The Last of Us does the opposite. Humanity is circling the drain but the wider world really doesn't give a damn.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Absolute masterpiece of a game, and a title that gets virtually everything right. Naughty Dog once again proves their pedigree for making unmatched experiences.

I never expected them to be able to craft such an intense yet restrained drama though.

And points if you noticed the Jak and Daxter pinatas.

Also, is that Savage Starlight a real comic strip or what? Because it seemed remarkably authentic for it to be just a joke comic. Though it wouldn't surprise me with the amount of detail Naughty Dog put in the environment.

Well, I did see a Dark Horse Comics logo on the back, so they could be real. If not now, maybe later.

OH! You know what Naughty Dog should do for DLC?! They should make one like the Far Cry: Blood Dragon/ Boarderlands 2 Tiny Tina's Assault on Dragon Keep.

It can start with Joel getting Ellie the last Savage Starlight issue, and have her deciding to go back and read them all in order. Then we can get to play as Daniela, kicking ass all over the galaxy fighting the Travelers!

Yeah, it's a long shot, but I can hope.

 

[Robot Number V]

Well....I'm pretty conflicted. It wasn't a BAD story by any stretch of the imagination. Far from it, it was fantastic. I'm just not sure I AGREE with the message behind it.

The thing is that no matter how you interpret Joel's actions, there's no happy ending. Either he was right to save Ellie and the human race didn't deserve a cure, or he was wrong to save Ellie and Joel is pretty much the worst person to ever live.

And I'm honestly not sure which interpretation the game wants me to take. On one hand....Well, this:

Right outside the hospital, when you meet the giraffes, I realised what was so special about Naughty Dog's apocalypse. It isn't desolate. It isn't a barren wasteland of fear, and hatred, and loathing. This is a beautiful place, reclaimed by nature and full of life. Just because it isn't human life doesn't make it less valuable or less meaningful. To murder a young girl for some lofty, idealistic view of rebuilding an inherently vicious and desperate species seemed utterly despicable.

I realized looking through some concept art galleries that this concept is pretty much beaten into us throughout the entire game, the moment with the giraffes being the most telling. The world will go on without us. And after witnessing what humanity has become, you can understand why Joel might think that possibility isn't so bad.


But on the other hand....

That was how felt. It's very easy to sit back and condemn Joel from a distanced, lofty position but if it had been me in his position (and with his ruthless capability for violence) I would have saved Ellie. It's not the logical thing, nor is it the heroic thing, but it is the humane thing.

Is it though? Ellie probably would've consented to the procedure. It's true that her consent isn't explicit, but it IS very probable. And the fact that Joel lied in order to avoid giving her that choice means that he knew it, too. All Joel wanted was to live out the rest of his life in peace with is brother and Ellie, and what Ellie would've wanted didn't matter to him. That means that what he did, he didn't do for Ellie's sake. he did it for his own. He did it based on his own nihilistic (if earned through experience) view of humanity, and his pathological need to protect her. By removing Ellie's choice from the equation, hasn't Joel mistreated and betrayed her JUST as much as the Fireflies did?

Again, I want to state that I think the story of The Last of Us is absolutely fantastic, it just also happens to be depressing as fuck.

 

[snowmaneddy]

Ellie probably would've consented to the procedure. It's true that her consent isn't explicit, but it IS very probable. And the fact that Joel lied in order to avoid giving her that choice means that he knew it, too. All Joel wanted was to live out the rest of his life in peace with is brother and Ellie, and what Ellie would've wanted didn't matter to him. That means that what he did, he didn't do for Ellie's sake. he did it for his own. He did it based on his own nihilistic (if earned through experience) view of humanity, and his pathological need to protect her. By removing Ellie's choice from the equation, hasn't Joel mistreated and betrayed her JUST as much as the Fireflies did?

Your point about Joel not giving Ellie a choice (just like the Fireflies) is really good! I never really thought about Joel's lie from that perspective. But even then, I still think that Ellie is ultimately "at peace" with the life that is ahead of her because I'm pretty sure that she is aware of the lie (at least that's what the developers implied they were aiming for) and still wants to continue on with the rest of her life now that she knows she won't be alone (with Joel's lie being sort of an "expression of commitment" to quote a previous post).

 

[Robot Number V]

Ellie probably would've consented to the procedure. It's true that her consent isn't explicit, but it IS very probable. And the fact that Joel lied in order to avoid giving her that choice means that he knew it, too. All Joel wanted was to live out the rest of his life in peace with is brother and Ellie, and what Ellie would've wanted didn't matter to him. That means that what he did, he didn't do for Ellie's sake. he did it for his own. He did it based on his own nihilistic (if earned through experience) view of humanity, and his pathological need to protect her. By removing Ellie's choice from the equation, hasn't Joel mistreated and betrayed her JUST as much as the Fireflies did?

Your point about Joel not giving Ellie a choice (just like the Fireflies) is really good! I never really thought about Joel's lie from that perspective. But even then, I still think that Ellie is ultimately "at peace" with the life that is ahead of her because I'm pretty sure that she is aware of the lie (at least that's what the developers implied they were aiming for) and still wants to continue on with the rest of her life now that she knows she won't be alone (with Joel's lie being sort of an "expression of commitment" to quote a previous post).

Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure she knows he was lying. I mean, Joel's story is pretty shaky at best. "We found the Fireflies, but it turns out that they're not even looking for a cure, which is why we left before you even regained consciousness, but after someone put you in a hospital gown. And put an IV in your arm. Great news, huh?!"

....Yeah, Ellie is smarter then that. I think at the end of the game, when she asks him to swear he was telling the truth, what she's really asking him to do is swear that whatever happened, whatever he did, it was the right call.

Of course, whether it actually WAS the right call or not is still up for debate. I'm not even sure yet, myself, despite my previous post.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

If the Fireflies had allowed Joel to see Ellie and had given him the chance to talk to her--alone--and she had said, "I'm fine with this, Joel, really," then I would have been okay with what would have happened to her. As it is, since we never saw any of that and they wouldn't even let Joel talk to her after all they'd been through, I can't really blame him for what he did. Saving humanity is a tough choice when you are not actually given a choice in the sacrifice that will be needed.

But that's the kicker, or at least one of them. Can it really be called 'Humanity' after everything that Joel and Ellie saw? Are people worth saving like that? Even the Fireflies, the so-called good guys, don't exactly come off as heroes in the final chapter. They were ready to kill Joel on the spot, and the fact that Marlene told the guard to shoot Joel if he tried anything proved that she's no shining paragon either.

I did like the Joel went back and finished her off. And he said exactly what I was thinking. "She can't be allowed to live. She'll never give up looking for her." Still, I was appalled that Joel actually wen through with that.

I also believe Ellie is aware that Joel is not telling the whole truth, however I don't think she was given a choice for the surgery. Keep in mind that when she wakes up, she asks, "What am I wearing?" This means she wasn't conscious when they changed her into the hospital gown. She was probably still knocked out from nearly drowning. It would also explain why she doesn't start question his lie with counter information she should have easily gotten from the Fireflies. Ellie was never truly aware of what was going to happen to her, but she also suspects that Joel is not telling her the truth. And I wouldn't be surprised if that comes back to haunt both of them later in their lives--assuming they make more games.

Finally, if Ellie is immune, who's to say that there aren't others out there too? So the disease can't be cured right now. Odds are that more and more humans will become immune eventually, until the disease is no longer a threat. Just a thought.

 

[lucky_sharm]

Ellie probably would've consented to the procedure. It's true that her consent isn't explicit, but it IS very probable. And the fact that Joel lied in order to avoid giving her that choice means that he knew it, too. All Joel wanted was to live out the rest of his life in peace with is brother and Ellie, and what Ellie would've wanted didn't matter to him. That means that what he did, he didn't do for Ellie's sake. he did it for his own. He did it based on his own nihilistic (if earned through experience) view of humanity, and his pathological need to protect her. By removing Ellie's choice from the equation, hasn't Joel mistreated and betrayed her JUST as much as the Fireflies did?

Your point about Joel not giving Ellie a choice (just like the Fireflies) is really good! I never really thought about Joel's lie from that perspective. But even then, I still think that Ellie is ultimately "at peace" with the life that is ahead of her because I'm pretty sure that she is aware of the lie (at least that's what the developers implied they were aiming for) and still wants to continue on with the rest of her life now that she knows she won't be alone (with Joel's lie being sort of an "expression of commitment" to quote a previous post).

Yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure she knows he was lying. I mean, Joel's story is pretty shaky at best. "We found the Fireflies, but it turns out that they're not even looking for a cure, which is why we left before you even regained consciousness, but after someone put you in a hospital gown. And put an IV in your arm. Great news, huh?!"

....Yeah, Ellie is smarter then that. I think at the end of the game, when she asks him to swear he was telling the truth, what she's really asking him to do is swear that whatever happened, whatever he did, it was the right call.

Of course, whether it actually WAS the right call or not is still up for debate. I'm not even sure yet, myself, despite my previous post.

It was the right call. They might have been able to find a cure by sacrificing Ellie, but remember that it was humanity that killed his daughter, not the Infected. To Joel, he was going to lose his daughter a second time to humanity.

Joel chose to keep Ellie alive over her dying, so he could teach her how to swim and what not. They bonded and created a relationship which meant everything to both of them. She hated being alone and everyone that she's ever known and cared about died...everyone except for Joel.

Joel killed the leader of the Fireflies because she stood in his way and to ensure that no one else would come for Ellie. He did it for the same reason that he's done everything else in the story, which was protect her and his reason for living.

Ellie wanted to give herself to the greater good but Joel knew it wouldn't mean anything and she would just die.

Bear in mind that the Fireflies also attempted to find a cure by sacrificing other immune patients but to no avail, based on the audio log. Even if they did find a vaccine with Ellie's death, would it actually save a world already dominated by military, bandits, and infected? The only thing that can really allow humanity to prosper at this stage of an outbreak is a self-sustainable community like Tommy's power plant in Wyoming, provided that it isn't beset upon by bandits and infected.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I loved the ending and actually found it quite positive. Ellie was a symbol of hope for both Marlene and Joel. Reading Marlene's diary and listening to her logs she is at the end of her tether. She's given up all hope of ever being free of the responsibility of leading the Fireflies while doubting her fitness as a leader and sees Ellie as her only chance of an end to all of it. I think that's why she's convinced herself that Ellie would be fine with it, she's desperately needs to believe it to justify her course.

And obviously for Joel she's the thing that's currently keeping him alive and has given him the reason he needs to try and make a better life for himself and her by settling down in Tommy's settlement (which I took to have a much better chance of survival than the QZs. The abandoned QZs seemed to have been abandoned more because of insurrections than failings, something unlikely to be an issue for Tommy and his willing group of families). Like others have said Ellie is willing to go along with it all because its the proof she needs she'll never be alone.

Underneath it all there is this linging of extreme sadness though, like it had all been for nothing. That moment after the girrafes when Joel says "Let's just be done with this and go back to Tommy's", Ellie says she needs to continue otherwise all the horrible things she has seen and done will have been for nothing. And at the end when they're walking toward the settlement, you can tell she feels exactly that. While Joel seems quite happy deluding himself, Ellie is very much aware that this is basically it - Everything she's fought for tooth and nail has all been for naught. More than that though, her hope for a better tommorow is gone. All that is left is the struggle to survive another day.

Right outside the hospital, when you meet the giraffes, I realised what was so special about Naughty Dog's apocalypse. It isn't desolate. It isn't a barren wasteland of fear, and hatred, and loathing. This is a beautiful place, reclaimed by nature and full of life. Just because it isn't human life doesn't make it less valuable or less meaningful. To murder a young girl for some lofty, idealistic view of rebuilding an inherently vicious and desperate species seemed utterly despicable.

I felt really melancholy about that. The beauty of this world only emphasizes our own insignificance, and how the world never really cared whether we were there or not.

 

[lucky_sharm]

Tommy's power plant has electricity, crops, livestock, and families. His community is the real hope for a better tomorrow, not a miracle vaccine.

Sadly, humanity excels at destroying itself without the help of mutants, given the bandit attack on Tommy's place.

 

[Windcaler]

I just finished the game myself and Ive been conflicted about the game from the get go. The common choice of the sanctity of life of one person (often willing to sacrifice themselves for others) vs the betterment of many is a tope that's IMHO getting a bit overdone in gaming, movies, and literature. It really is an effective story for drama and philosophical reflection in the player but at the end of the day you can only experience so many of these stories till the effect stars to loose its meaning.

That said, I think Joel was entirely selfish. That's his whole character since Sarah's death. Everything he does is for himself. He agrees to the job because of the payment and when things change between him and Ellie he chooses the selfish choice. I don't believe he made that choice because in his eyes it was the right thing to do I think he did it because in his heart he couldn't bear to loose her. Even in the last moments of the game when Ellie confronts him about the story he told her about the fireflies and there being lots of "immune" people he chose to be selfish so if anything hes consistant. Of course I don't equate the ultimate selfish choice to the "right" choice because the sanctity of a single life over the betterment/sanctity of all lives is a personal choice and I don't believe that there is an objective correct answer, only subjective ones.

To be fair, Im not so sure Ellie would have been ready to sacrifice herself. If I recall correctly we did hear she would be but only from Marlene and I question the legitimacy of her statements considering her mental state and the fact that Joel was escaping the hospital with Ellie in his arms when we heard it (I think she also had a gun pointed at her). Its possible that she could have been willing but I don't recall hearing a confirmation one way or another from Ellie

I really like the setting of the game and the characters within, however I feel like the story was rather cliché. I found myself thinking "For once can we get a "zombie" apocalypse game that doesn't rely on "finding a cure" as the main plot point?" and as I mentioned earlier I feel like the sanctity of one life over the betterment of many lives trope is getting quite stale.

As another note, we also got two very strong and non-sexualized female protagonists out of the game. Those being Ellie and Tess. Im quite happy about that

Now there was one thing that consistently annoyed me. That being that in many cutscenes the game got me into trouble before giving me back control. Ive always hated that. Its like the developers try their best to screw over my own achievments. By god if I stealthily kill every infected in an area the rest of the city shouldn't be alerted when the character makes some loud noises in the middle of a cutscene that I have no control of. If I mess up through the gameplay, ok Ill deal with the consequences but I hate it when the consequences are chosen for me despite how well or poorly I perform.

 

[captnb2thep]

Just finished the game and that ending is STILL sticking with me. I can't think of the last time I played a game with such a lasting impression. I'm still thinking about it. It was a great experience. I actually loved the ending, it wasn't predictable. In that dramatic scene trying to escape the hospital with Ellie in arms (parallel from the prologue) I thought for sure the result would be similar, except this time Joel would be gunned down and Ellies fate would be left vague, but implied that she underwent the surgery. Then when he escaped, two other scenarios popped into my mind of how it would end, both involving Joel and Ellie both dying. Hell, I even thought Ellie would shoot Joel right after she asked him to "swear" he was telling the truth. None of that happened. I'm 100% happy with the ending, its dark, a little twisted, but at the same time completely believeable considering everything.