The Last of Us: When Does it Get Better?

[Sarge034]

Eh, turns out if was a rumor spread by some assholes on a forum that misinterepreted a data log, and I didn't question it since it was mention several different times by several different people, or something. Fail by me.

The plot is still a red herring though, since the Fireflies are a bunch of assholes, but that was indeed a failure on my part, sorry about that.

Spoiler

I thought that was the point. Every group is in it for themselves and the Fireflies were supposed to be shown as being just as corrupt as the military and the bandits. The moral point of the game is not "how far would you go to save humanity" but, "is it worth losing your humanity to potentially save humanity?" At least that is what I think it was going for, but that is the beauty of this game. It touches on so many philosophical points that there is intelligent discussion to be had everywhere.

 

[genghisKwong]

No, it doesn't scream for "hub based gameplay." It REALLY doesn't. The game doesn't take place in a 3 square mile city, it takes place as a cross country journey. The world is big and epic in scope, while the story is small and personal, which makes a great contrast. This wouldn't be possible with "hub based" missions.

I disagree. The few bits I've encountered that opened up an area even a LITTLE bit really improved the experience. Naturally this is opinion based, but I think "it wouldn't be possible" is a pretty hefty overstatement, unless you're seriously misunderstanding what I mean by "hub based".

I disagree about the game screaming to be "hub-based." Joel and Ellie are trying to make a bee-line for the firefly base. They aren't going to be interested in doing missions for people(whom are likely dangerous to begin with), or searching some dilapidated apartments for medicine, or eavesdropping on the Hunter leader for their stockpiles of food or anything like that. Joel and Ellie only want to move forward, not backtrack through a hub. If it doesn't help them get to the fireflies then they wouldn't do it. It just wouldn't do anything to serve the story.

A hub-based game in the setting of TLoU would be great, but that's not what this particular title is about. It would only work if the story isn't what it is.

And also-- what's wrong with "linear" games? Why is a game being "linear" such a toxic word for gaming these days? I don't believe that every game should be open world. Linear games are better when it comes to telling a story. Open world games can also tell stories, but are generally better for experiences.

 

[Zhukov]

Oh-ho, you've done it now.

So I'm around the part...the booby trapped town part? Does that make sense? Just went through the whole "hanging upside down/booby trap/shooting sequence". I assume there's just one. Although knowing this fucking game there's probably 50 of them.

By that point you've seen the core of what the game has to offer in terms of gameplay. Obviously you get new weapons and stuff further down the line, but it's not about to to suddenly become an open world game or something.

Oh, and there's only one hanging upside down bit.

Some caveats...I hate shooting with a controller. I'm sure some of you are pro at it, it feels like trying to swim with winter boots on for me. Sluggishly prodding the cursor around the screen attempting to aim makes me crazy. I also think the inventory system is appalling, it's some arcane sequence of buttons and d-pad presses and hold downs just to switch a fucking gun. I have no idea how anyone tolerates that. But this is all UI unfamiliarity/system crossover, so I'll minimize the bitching.

Aaaactually... I'm pretty sure some elements of the controls and UI were made deliberately unwieldy or slow.

The aiming, coupled with relatively low ammo supplies, forces you to place you shots with care and turns a guy charging you with a baseball bat into an actual threat rather than a passing nuisance. (The weapon sway can be mitigated and eliminated with upgrades.) Likewise, the inventory means you have to plan what you have on hand and what you store away rather than being able to magically conjure you the contents of you backpack into your hands while in mid punch or pause time Bethesda style to shuffle some potions. If you do want to access the rest of your inventory or whip up a molotov then you need to hide or wait for a quiet moment.

This isn't meant to excuse what you see as a flaw. "Deliberately clumsy is still clumsy so fuck that" is a valid viewpoint, but personally I enjoyed being a regular guy with a gun and a two-by-four rather than a 360-no-scoping super-soldier.

1. It's hyper linear. I thought maybe it was a bit of an open world scrounger, but it's an action set piece corridor runner, much like Tomb Raider.

Uh... yeah. It's a linear game. They're a thing. Not sure what would have led you to believe otherwise. You're still not quite out of Tutorial Town. Later areas have some wriggle room, making "corridor runner" a definite exaggeration but it's unquestionably a linear game.

2. Also much like Tomb Raider, it's a goddam QTE apocalypse. MASH THE BUTTON TO DO THE THING. Whee!

Umm... don't remember many of those. I mean, they're in there, sure, there's a few mash-square-to-fend-off-unfriendly-individual, but "QTE apocalypse" is an exaggeration.

3. I shoot a guy wearing a baseball cap in the face with a 9mm, he doesn't flinch. Damage modeling seems pretty kooky. I also remember someone saying The Last of Us was a game that "properly modeled the consequences of taking a wound" post Tomb Raider. Well, I'm getting shot to fuck and I'm slapping bandages on it and that's that I guess. So far it's pretty gamey.

A headshot with any weapon on any difficulty is a kill on any human not wearing a helmet. Clickers can survive one headshot from weaker weapons. Either the game bugged or you just missed.
Not sure what your guy was talking about regarding "properly modeling blah-de-blah". I suspect they were referring to an injury-related plot event further into the game which is treated rather different to similar events in Tomb Raider. Has no bearing on gameplay.

4. Stealth is pretty garbage. It seems like there's an engine there with the whole listening system that SHOULD support a fun stealth game, but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to how or why you get spotted. I was getting spotted and shot through walls during one sequence.

Umm... if you're in cover, you don't get spotted. If there's an enemy facing you and you're out of cover or the enemy walks around the cover then you do get spotted. I've done three playthroughs and never had a problem with this.

Enemies don't spot you and open fire instantly. There's an audio indication when you're visible, a sort of rising hum.

I wouldn't recommend using the listen mode. It ruins the fun. It's disabled on harder difficulties.

5. Gunplay is pretty garbage, largely due to A) I hate the controls and B) damage modeling seems off. Yes I realize the first one is my fault. The AI also seems to alternate between being dead eye accurate and brain numbingly stupid, which reminds me of Crysis AI, which was balls.

Adressed controls earlier. Not sure what you mean by "damage modelling".

I found the AI to be pretty good. Impressive range of actions available to human enemies. Although, granted, they're far too quick to go into let's-split-up-and-start-patrolling mode. They also don't seem to think of specifically patrolling the area where they last saw you.

6. Clickers and insta-death for failure. Awesome game mechanic. Makes me want to punch the developer in the dick.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from on this. I never got particularly frustrated, but I can see how some people would. I just learned to deal with them.

There's an upgrade that lets you fend off clicker bites at the expense of a shiv, but I never used it.

7. Throwing distractions seems to work maybe 30% of the time. Half the time there's no noise in-game, and the enemies show no reaction. Bug?

Three playthroughs, never had this happen. I suspect that you're assuming that the enemy's hearing radius is larger than it really is.

So...does it get better? When does it get better?

From you perspective, I don't think it does get any better. What you've played so far is indicative of the rest.

The game is not about to sprout a mouse and keyboard and morph into Stalker.

 

[sune-ku]

Spoiler

I disagree, the fireflies are barely established in the slightest, and while it does make sence that the rebel group is morally questionable indeed, we don't actually get to know everything about them, and thus they aren't very interesting. At the end of the day, they're just being there to set up the plot (or the little plot there is) and to produce some mooks for Joel to shoot at in the final stage.

And the whole "man's inhumanity to man" schtick has been played so many goddamn times I'm not exactly in awe that someone has figured out that humans can be quite terrible to eachother.

I feel like I got something completely different from the ending than you and I really loved it because of what it did. It's a shame you saw it in a different way and didn't gain anything from it, but here is my understanding of it:

Spoiler

The Fireflies (which were admittedly vaguely developed) weren't really bad guys at all. If anything they were the closest thing the game had to a good organisation. The establishment went all martial law and are no longer trying to find a solution to the problem, but this group of radicals is desperately trying to save humanity and believe they have the key in Ellie. Turn's out they have to kill her for it to work though, which is the crux of the final act. You have Marlene - the Fireflies leader, who had to look after Ellie when she was younger and is almost a mother to her, and Joel - a father figure who's just been through this crazy ordeal and journey with her.

Marlene decides (and you can hear from her voice recordings that she hates herself for this) that finding a cure is more important than the life of a girl, even one who she has such a close connection with. It's a torment filled, selfless decision, driven by a desire to do the right thing for humanity. Joel on the other hand can't bring himself to let her go, his connection with her is too strong and the entire journey through the game has built up this 'him & her' versus the world attitude that gets you to sympathise. Really though it's a selfish decision - he can't stand the thought of life without her and because of that, he kills Marlene, the scientists, and any Fireflies that cross him, to escape with Ellie.

After all that he lies to Ellie, tells her they couldn't have used her as a cure. Ostensibly to protect her innocence - but really because he wants things to stay the same. Doesn't want her to hate him. He doesn't care about anything except keeping her close to him.

The hammer blow falls when Ellie reveals she'd rather die than live if it could help people (slightly paraphrased) and you realise that if it was her choice, Marlene would have got her way, not Joel. He murdered and lied his way out. It may have been because of love for Ellie, but even a villain can love, and that's exactly what he is.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, and there's only one hanging upside down bit.

Thank god.

This isn't meant to excuse what you see as a flaw. "Deliberately clumsy is still clumsy so fuck that" is a valid viewpoint, but personally I enjoyed being a regular guy with a gun and a two-by-four rather than a 360-no-scoping super-soldier.

I hear that. I just wish there'd been a better way to model it. Sluggish UI just *feels* bad to me, as a game. Like, it feels crappy to play. It's almost like simulating lag or rubber banding.

Uh... yeah. It's a linear game. They're a thing. Not sure what would have led you to believe otherwise. You're still not quite out of Tutorial Town. Later areas have some wriggle room, making "corridor runner" a definite exaggeration but it's unquestionably a linear game.

Okay, I'm getting some flack from the linear lobby in this thread, and I should probably elaborate. I don't think the game should turn into Fallout New Vegas or anything. I was thinking more along the lines of some of DE:HR's city hubs. Make an AREA part of the progression of their journey, but give the player some leeway in terms of how they approach that area. I don't think having J/E rooting around in trash bins for bottle caps for 45 hours would improve the narrative, but I don't like feeling like I'm on rails, either. There has to be a middle ground.

Umm... don't remember many of those. I mean, they're in there, sure, there's a few mash-square-to-fend-off-unfriendly-individual, but "QTE apocalypse" is an exaggeration.

There's a fair amount of "hammer button X" moments, which I always find unforgivable, but "QTE apocalypse" was probably an overstatement. I was rather cross with the game when I wrote the OP.

A headshot with any weapon on any difficulty is a kill on any human not wearing a helmet. Clickers can survive one headshot from weaker weapons. Either the game bugged or you just missed.

Yeah, it was an unhelmeted human, very early on, and I didn't miss. I hit him square in the lips region, and nothing happened. It was pretty unmistakable, since it took me a good stretch of geological time to swim the cursor up to his face, and he kept popping it out of cover in the same spot. Someone earlier in the thread indicated the ENTIRE head is not mapped for "headshots", which could be the issue.

Umm... if you're in cover, you don't get spotted. If there's an enemy facing you and you're out of cover or the enemy walks around the cover then you do get spotted. I've done three playthroughs and never had a problem with this.

Well, what's cover, though? What qualifies as cover? What qualifies as "too much noise"? It wasn't until I was in this thread I heard the first thing about a rising hum, bricks hitting carpets, or that accidentally punting a soft drink can could break stealth. Either I missed a tutorial sequence explaining all this shit, or there wasn't one and TLOU is one of those "Enjoy learning how to swim" games. I've gotten better at managing stealth, although I find stealth sections to be cramped and patrol patterns tight, to the point where I almost invariably get fed up and start shanking people just to get them out of the way, since I'm still not confident eyeballing cover or safe distance.

I wouldn't recommend using the listen mode. It ruins the fun. It's disabled on harder difficulties.

It's a bit psychic, but it was the only tool that was immediately intuitive in terms of how stealth worked.

I found the AI to be pretty good. Impressive range of actions available to human enemies. Although, granted, they're far too quick to go into let's-split-up-and-start-patrolling mode. They also don't seem to think of specifically patrolling the area where they last saw you.

I still remember a moment in the third XCOM game, Apocalypse, where I had two soldiers flanking a doorway. Cultists kept running through it and dying. There was a pile of bodies in the doorway, and each new cultist had to step over them to fall into the obvious trap. This has happened twice in TLOU. Hardly the end of the world, but I thought it was funny. "OMG they got Joe! And Sam! And Mike! And Tim! I better check out this shadowy alcove alon...ggggrrlrl."

Okay, I can see where you're coming from on this. I never got particularly frustrated, but I can see how some people would. I just learned to deal with them.

I saved up my vitamins (really guys, give me less vitamins and make everything cost less) and bought the "shank a clicker" ability, and boy is it fussy. I think I have a flaky controller or it's just REALLY unforgiving, because there's a split second of time you can do it, and then the clicker eats you anyway. I guess it's better than nothing. Shotgun and Hunting Rifle have made Clickers significantly less threatening though. I just wish they'd stop mixing two into a wave o' zombies, so you get the Clicker surprise when you're thumping a regular around the neck and shoulders. They always zoom in on me too. I suspect I'm wearing eau d'protagonist.

Three playthroughs, never had this happen. I suspect that you're assuming that the enemy's hearing radius is larger than it really is.

There's only so far I can throw a bottle though, yeah? If you and I were at one end of a gymansium, and I threw a bottle to the other end, you'd hear it. In game it goes "piff" and nothing happens. I've stopped throwing things as far as I can, and started using distractions as molotov bait instead of "distractions" as was suggested earlier in the thread.

The game is not about to sprout a mouse and keyboard and morph into Stalker.

DAMN IT!

I actually like the narrative quite a lot, so I am soldiering on. I end each session when the game pisses me off so much I cease wanting to play for a while. Last time this happened was with the Boomer. Fucking bullet sponge. Is there a trick to those guys beyond "shoot em lots"? It took an emptied .45 and emptied shotgun plus my NPC chum shooting him 11,000 times to kill him (I rather suspect the NPC damage isn't counted against his hit points or something).

 

[Church185]

I actually like the narrative quite a lot, so I am soldiering on. I end each session when the game pisses me off so much I cease wanting to play for a while. Last time this happened was with the Boomer. Fucking bullet sponge. Is there a trick to those guys beyond "shoot em lots"? It took an emptied .45 and emptied shotgun plus my NPC chum shooting him 11,000 times to kill him (I rather suspect the NPC damage isn't counted against his hit points or something).

Fire is your best friend against all types of infected. The first bloater you fight is hard to hide from because of how he is introduced, but they are quite blind just like the clickers. Bloaters encountered later in the game can be bottle/molotov cheesed, and eventually you'll come across a flamethrower.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I actually like the narrative quite a lot, so I am soldiering on. I end each session when the game pisses me off so much I cease wanting to play for a while. Last time this happened was with the Boomer. Fucking bullet sponge. Is there a trick to those guys beyond "shoot em lots"? It took an emptied .45 and emptied shotgun plus my NPC chum shooting him 11,000 times to kill him (I rather suspect the NPC damage isn't counted against his hit points or something).

Fire.

It's the best weapon against Bloaters. It'll usually take atleast two molotovs to take one out, but there's always a possibility for one to walk through the area that's still burning making it catch fire again. If played clever or by simple luck, you can sometimes take out a whole horde of infected with just a bottle and a molotov -- Many times other infected will get drawn by the noise and just walk right into the fire patch on the floor. Fire also stunlocks any enemy, even Bloaters.

You can try shooting the somewhat glowing mushroom protrusions on it's body to stop it from throwing spore bombs. But these guys move so erratically that that's not the best strategy, especially if you find the aiming frustrating.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Bloaters encountered later in the game can be bottle/molotov cheesed, and eventually you'll come across a flamethrower.

That flamethrower totally breaks any infected encounter from then on though. With that puppy, what were previously highly dangerous creatures are mitigated to mere pests. I don't even pick it up anymore.

 

[Church185]

That flamethrower totally breaks any infected encounter from then on though. With that puppy, what were previously highly dangerous creatures are mitigated to mere pests. I don't even pick it up anymore.

I don't particularly like using the flamethrower either, the range on it is terrible, but I thought I would throw that nugget of information out there for someone who is clearly frustrated with the combat in the game. Stealth/Arrow and Bottle/Molotov/Nail Bomb are my bread and butter methods of making it through that game alive on harder difficulties.

 

[Zhukov]

Uh... yeah. It's a linear game. They're a thing. Not sure what would have led you to believe otherwise. You're still not quite out of Tutorial Town. Later areas have some wriggle room, making "corridor runner" a definite exaggeration but it's unquestionably a linear game.

Okay, I'm getting some flack from the linear lobby in this thread, and I should probably elaborate. I don't think the game should turn into Fallout New Vegas or anything. I was thinking more along the lines of some of DE:HR's city hubs. Make an AREA part of the progression of their journey, but give the player some leeway in terms of how they approach that area. I don't think having J/E rooting around in trash bins for bottle caps for 45 hours would improve the narrative, but I don't like feeling like I'm on rails, either. There has to be a middle ground.

Uhhyyeahnooyeummmambivalent.

On the one hand, I'm a fan of the Deus Ex school of level design with a linear game made up of semi-open levels. It seems to like a best-of-both-worlds deal.

On the other hand, the city hubs in Human Revolution were the worst part of that game for me. They completely threw the pacing out the fucking window in favour of making me trek back and forth across the same city block to perform mostly irrelevant oddjobs.

At the end of the day I don't think it would have fit with the brutal apocalyptic road trip structure of TLoU. The game didn't need hub based side quests. It really, really didn't.

I do not consider "linear" to be a dirty word. Most if not all of my favourite game are linear. Yes, there is such as thing as too linear. For me that point is when my actions as a player feel scripted and the game raps me across the knuckles for daring to deviate. I do not think TLoU ever crossed that line.

Well, what's cover, though? What qualifies as cover? What qualifies as "too much noise"? It wasn't until I was in this thread I heard the first thing about a rising hum, bricks hitting carpets, or that accidentally punting a soft drink can could break stealth. Either I missed a tutorial sequence explaining all this shit, or there wasn't one and TLOU is one of those "Enjoy learning how to swim" games. I've gotten better at managing stealth, although I find stealth sections to be cramped and patrol patterns tight, to the point where I almost invariably get fed up and start shanking people just to get them out of the way, since I'm still not confident eyeballing cover or safe distance.

Cover is... being behind something. I never found that hard to judge. If it helps, your character's animation will reflect when you are "officially" is cover. His stance changes a bit and he'll lean into the cover object or place a hand against it.

I found those other elements pretty intuitive. You kick a can, it makes a noise and the clickers come a runnin'. Tutorializing that would be like a shooter tutorializing the fact that having a poorly thrown grenade bounce off a doorway and land at your feet is a bad thing.

Incidentally, were you trying to be stealthy in a non-lethal fashion? I've never actually tried that. If nothing else, it always seemed more fitting to Joel's character and to the setting to kill everything in the way.

I still remember a moment in the third XCOM game, Apocalypse, where I had two soldiers flanking a doorway. Cultists kept running through it and dying. There was a pile of bodies in the doorway, and each new cultist had to step over them to fall into the obvious trap. This has happened twice in TLOU. Hardly the end of the world, but I thought it was funny. "OMG they got Joe! And Sam! And Mike! And Tim! I better check out this shadowy alcove alon...ggggrrlrl."

Well, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's possible in almost every stealth game ever made. The only one I've seen where it wasn't was, funnily enough, Splinter Cell: Conviction. After you took out a couple of them, enemies would stop coming for you, back up a bit and stand ready looking in the direction they last saw you.

I saved up my vitamins (really guys, give me less vitamins and make everything cost less) and bought the "shank a clicker" ability, and boy is it fussy. I think I have a flaky controller or it's just REALLY unforgiving, because there's a split second of time you can do it, and then the clicker eats you anyway. I guess it's better than nothing. Shotgun and Hunting Rifle have made Clickers significantly less threatening though. I just wish they'd stop mixing two into a wave o' zombies, so you get the Clicker surprise when you're thumping a regular around the neck and shoulders. They always zoom in on me too. I suspect I'm wearing eau d'protagonist.

Oh, that reminds me, save your shotgun ammo for infected and clickers in particular and always have it accessible in their areas. Don't use your shells against humans. You probably figured this out on your own, but yeah... there ya go.

There's only so far I can throw a bottle though, yeah? If you and I were at one end of a gymnasium, and I threw a bottle to the other end, you'd hear it. In game it goes "piff" and nothing happens. I've stopped throwing things as far as I can, and started using distractions as molotov bait instead of "distractions" as was suggested earlier in the thread.

If I wanted to get pedantic I'd point out that I might well disregard a distant noise coming from one gymnasium's length away, but a sudden noise from ten feet away is definitely going to make me turn to look.

I actually like the narrative quite a lot, so I am soldiering on. I end each session when the game pisses me off so much I cease wanting to play for a while. Last time this happened was with the Boomer. Fucking bullet sponge. Is there a trick to those guys beyond "shoot em lots"? It took an emptied .45 and emptied shotgun plus my NPC chum shooting him 11,000 times to kill him (I rather suspect the NPC damage isn't counted against his hit points or something).

Burn 'em.

Molotovs do a number on Bloaters. Nail bombs aren't half bad either. After that, yeah, shoot him a lot, preferably with weapons upgraded for armour piercing. Friendly NPCs do inflict damage, but it's heavily reduced.

Other miscellaneous tips:
- Hard difficulty is best difficulty. Anything less is for babies that don't appreciate challenge and scarcity.
- You want the weapon stability and health upgrades more than you want any of the others. In fact. you don't really want the others at all.
- Don't bother upgrading the 9mm and snub-nosed revolver.
- At some point you will find a home made flamethrower. It's essentially useless against humans due to tiny range but will turn infected encounters into minor speedbumps. If you wish to preserve the challenge then you might want to not pick it up.
- Meleeing someone with a brick is a noisy insta-kill. Meleeing with a bottle is a stun, allowing you to use the subject as a human shield. Clickers can be bricked to death, but the timing is brutal.
- Human shields are great. Grabbing one will cause a lull in proceedings, long enough for you to re-position, and gives you at least one free shot. You can also bluff it out with an empty weapon.
- The brick-o-bludgeon is extremely powerful. Throw the brick or bottle to stun, then charge and melee. Insta kills basically anything. This was my bread and butter technique.
- At some point you will get a weapon called the 'Diablo'. Upgrade it to high heaven. Armour piercing and capacity in particular. You'll be glad you did on the final level.
- The bow is an insta-kill with a bodyshot on regular infected or unarmoured humans if they are unaware of you and the arrows have a decent chance of being recoverable. However, it insta-kill clickers only with a headshot. Given how clickers have a nasty habit of erratically moving their heads, it's generally not worth using the bow on them unless they're dormant. Even then, you need to watch they head movements carefully.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

On the other hand, the city hubs in Human Revolution were the worst part of that game for me. They completely threw the pacing out the fucking window in favour of making me trek back and forth across the same city block to perform mostly irrelevant oddjobs.

Well, I meant the spirit of them more than the actuality of them. There's been a few moments in TLOU where areas open up a bit and I can ransack houses for phat lewts, and the game feels a bit more properly post-apocalyptic when that happens. They could load that shit up with more lore, beef up the item/scrounging game. It just feels like it would make the experience richer. I'm also feeling really bitchy about Games-On-Rails post Tomb Raider. At least this game doesn't have that games collection of loathsome cardboard cutouts as a supporting cast.

I do not consider "linear" to be a dirty word. Most if not all of my favourite game are linear.

Mine too, but post apocalyptic means scavenging and exploring to me. It always has, and likely always will. It feels hard baked into the setting.

Cover is... being behind something. I never found that hard to judge. If it helps, your character's animation will reflect when you are "officially" is cover. His stance changes a bit and he'll lean into the cover object or place a hand against it.

Good to know.

I found those other elements pretty intuitive.

It's possible I've just not played stealth games in this vein before. As I said elsewhere, I'm used to games like Thief, or HR, where the game is like "You in shadows, bro" and doesn't leave it up to guesswork. I never heard the music sting that clued me into the fact I was getting seen, so the "You've been seen" alarm was always getting shot, or getting bungholed by Clickers.

Incidentally, were you trying to be stealthy in a non-lethal fashion?

YES.

Well, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's possible in almost every stealth game ever made. The only one I've seen where it wasn't was, funnily enough, Splinter Cell: Conviction. After you took out a couple of them, enemies would stop coming for you, back up a bit and stand ready looking in the direction they last saw you.

It's not a big deal, I realize AI is limited. It's part of the old "game play story disconnect" that becomes more grating as game stories become more intricate and lifelike. It's more immersion breaking because things are more immersive. And as games trade more and more on immersion as a primary selling point, it becomes more of an aggravation.

Oh, that reminds me, save your shotgun ammo for infected and clickers in particular and always have it accessible in their areas. Don't use your shells against humans. You probably figured this out on your own, but yeah... there ya go.

No worries there. I am a hoarder. I recall at the end of Ultima VII I had a bag FULL of glass swords, potions, powerful scrolls, wands, and other consumable doo-dads. I'd get in tough fights and think "Ooo, I better not use that glass sword, I'll need that later!". Then the game was over and I never used any of it. This is how I play games.

Molotovs do a number on Bloaters. Nail bombs aren't half bad either. After that, yeah, shoot him a lot, preferably with weapons upgraded for armour piercing. Friendly NPCs do inflict damage, but it's heavily reduced.

I was out of Molotovs at the time due to Dances With Clickers, but I'll keep it in mind that it's good to have one in reserve.

Hard difficulty is best difficulty. Anything less is for babies that don't appreciate challenge and scarcity.

I am on Normal. I wanted to play on Survivor because that sounded fun, but opted for Normal. As I'm still having mild to extreme discomfort with the input method as a Mouse/Keyboard user, I expect my "Normal" is akin to Hard+.

You want the weapon stability and health upgrades more than you want any of the others. In fact. you don't really want the others at all.

I've been saving for the 2nd Shiv upgrade. The one where Shivs stop breaking so much. Use a fucking KNIFE, guy. Jesus.

Don't bother upgrading the 9mm and snub-nosed revolver.

I upgraded the 9MM a tiny bit. Just made the clip bigger. Most of my upgrades were to the shotty and Hunting Rifle.

The bow is an insta-kill with a bodyshot on regular infected or unarmoured humans if they are unaware of you and the arrows have a decent chance of being recoverable. However, it insta-kill clickers only with a headshot. Given how clickers have a nasty habit of erratically moving their heads, it's generally not worth using the bow on them unless they're dormant. Even then, you need to watch they head movements carefully.

I was wondering why anyone would use a bow when you have the Rifle. Does it stealth kill? Is there arrow arc? I've been taking to headshotting Clickers from a safe distance with the Hunting Rifle, and I got the long-gun upgrade so I could quick-swap between it and the Shotgun.

 

[Zhukov]

No worries there. I am a hoarder. I recall at the end of Ultima VII I had a bag FULL of glass swords, potions, powerful scrolls, wands, and other consumable doo-dads. I'd get in tough fights and think "Ooo, I better not use that glass sword, I'll need that later!". Then the game was over and I never used any of it. This is how I play games.

Heh. Yeah, I do that too. I hoard stuff, then I get annoyed when I max out my inventory and can't collect even more stuff that I'll never bring myself to use.

If you're playing TLoU in that fashion on normal, I'd guess you'll find your self maxing out the inventory at the end of the next city. On survivor difficulty I generally find myself bumping against the limits by the game's halfway point.

It was nice to see a game, and a big budget AAA game at that, attempting to involve genuine scarcity. Some of my favourite moments involved going into fights with nothing but three bullets, a lead pipe and a brick. However I think they could have taken it further.

I was wondering why anyone would use a bow when you have the Rifle. Does it stealth kill? Is there arrow arc? I've been taking to headshotting Clickers from a safe distance with the Hunting Rifle, and I got the long-gun upgrade so I could quick-swap between it and the Shotgun.

Yeah, bow is silent. Good for thinning out the numbers before sneaking in or going balls out.

Oddly enough, a clicker taking an arrow in the head and going down thrashing and chittering will not alert his ostensibly sound-sensitive friends, but a missed arrow shattering against a wall will result in an instant clicker convention.

Also, the recoverable ammunition is great on the harder difficulties.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oddly enough, a clicker taking an arrow in the head and going down thrashing and chittering will not alert his ostensibly sound-sensitive friends, but a missed arrow shattering against a wall will result in an instant clicker convention.

I snuck through a house full of Clickers recently. My AI companions were bumping off walls and what not but otherwise creeping along with me. We got out, and we'd gone like 5 feet and suddenly they're cheerfully shouting to one another. I'm like...guys...the Clickers are still RIGHT there...

 

[Zhukov]

Oddly enough, a clicker taking an arrow in the head and going down thrashing and chittering will not alert his ostensibly sound-sensitive friends, but a missed arrow shattering against a wall will result in an instant clicker convention.

I snuck through a house full of Clickers recently. My AI companions were bumping off walls and what not but otherwise creeping along with me. We got out, and we'd gone like 5 feet and suddenly they're cheerfully shouting to one another. I'm like...guys...the Clickers are still RIGHT there...

Yeah, there's a few moments like that.

At one point things went tits up and I found myself bludgeoning and blasting a dozen or so infected. Then in the next house I come across dormant clickers... who apparently had not been alerted by the chorus of shotgun gunfire going on all of thirty meters away, but who lost no time in waking up and biting my beard off when I walked too fast.

 

[Sarge034]

Spoiler

I disagree, the fireflies are barely established in the slightest, and while it does make sence that the rebel group is morally questionable indeed, we don't actually get to know everything about them, and thus they aren't very interesting. At the end of the day, they're just being there to set up the plot (or the little plot there is) and to produce some mooks for Joel to shoot at in the final stage.

And the whole "man's inhumanity to man" schtick has been played so many goddamn times I'm not exactly in awe that someone has figured out that humans can be quite terrible to eachother.

Spoiler

You see? I thought the Fireflies were established enough to be seen in the same light as the military. The Fireflies were executing the military and their families in the streets of that one overrun quarantine area you pass through. That was enough for me because the military was executing Firefly members at the beginning of the game. Everything else just enforced that, especially the hospital. If you listen to Marlene at the end before Joel goes Rambo the Fireflies wanted to kill Joel just because. Joel had gone above and beyond what the Fireflies had hired him to do and that is how they were going to repay him?

As for your qualms with "man's inhumanity to man"... They are just that, your qualms. It is more than the realization that people are shit. It is the question, "Are you prepared to lose your humanity to save humanity? Is there anything even left worth saving if we give up our humanity to save it?" The most common example in philosophy for this question is, "If an all powerful being appeared to you and stated that if you didn't commit the worst, most heinous crimes known to man (often times explicitly stated as raping and murdering innocent children, although not always so use your imagination) then the being would destroy humanity. Would you? COULD you?"

Spoiler

The Fireflies (which were admittedly vaguely developed) weren't really bad guys at all. If anything they were the closest thing the game had to a good organisation. The establishment went all martial law and are no longer trying to find a solution to the problem, but this group of radicals is desperately trying to save humanity and believe they have the key in Ellie. Turn's out they have to kill her for it to work though, which is the crux of the final act. You have Marlene - the Fireflies leader, who had to look after Ellie when she was younger and is almost a mother to her, and Joel - a father figure who's just been through this crazy ordeal and journey with her.

Marlene decides (and you can hear from her voice recordings that she hates herself for this) that finding a cure is more important than the life of a girl, even one who she has such a close connection with. It's a torment filled, selfless decision, driven by a desire to do the right thing for humanity. Joel on the other hand can't bring himself to let her go, his connection with her is too strong and the entire journey through the game has built up this 'him & her' versus the world attitude that gets you to sympathise. Really though it's a selfish decision - he can't stand the thought of life without her and because of that, he kills Marlene, the scientists, and any Fireflies that cross him, to escape with Ellie.

After all that he lies to Ellie, tells her they couldn't have used her as a cure. Ostensibly to protect her innocence - but really because he wants things to stay the same. Doesn't want her to hate him. He doesn't care about anything except keeping her close to him.

The hammer blow falls when Ellie reveals she'd rather die than live if it could help people (slightly paraphrased) and you realise that if it was her choice, Marlene would have got her way, not Joel. He murdered and lied his way out. It may have been because of love for Ellie, but even a villain can love, and that's exactly what he is.

Spoiler

I'm going to address this by paragraphs.

Paragraph 1- I disagree, please refer to my other spoiler box above to see why.

Paragraph 2- I agree that Marlene is torn over the decision and Joel was being selfish, however I believe there is a possibility that he was acting with other intentions as well. I disagree that it was a selfless decision for Marlene.

>Marlene's Recorder 1)
"It's 5:30PM on... April 28th. I just finished speaking... More like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the fucking kid. And now they're asking for my go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... So be it."

>Marlene's Recorder 2)
"Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times...

Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon."

So with all of that in mind I can't call Joel totally selfish. They wanted to kill Joel because he did his job and they didn't give Elli the choice. They made it for her and the person that was supposed to be taking care of Elli threw her to the wolves for a chance that they could find a cure. I would do the same thing as Joel just out of principle if nothing else.

Paragraph 3- I don't think Joel lies to Elli to protect her innocence, as they have both seen each other do horrible things to survive, so much as to keep her from experiencing guilt over what might have happened. Be it survivor's guilt or simply second guessing the whole situation. Although I will concede that in the back of Joel's mind he is probably also lying so this girl he identifies as his daughter now will stay with him.

Paragraph 4- This is the gut shot, but how was Joel supposed to know? If the Fireflies had just sat Joel and Elli down in the same room and explained the situation this whole mess could have been avoided. Elli could have made her decision and Joel would have either accepted it or become the monster you seem to think he is.

 

[sune-ku]

Spoiler

I'm going to address this by paragraphs.

Paragraph 1- I disagree, please refer to my other spoiler box above to see why.

Paragraph 2- I agree that Marlene is torn over the decision and Joel was being selfish, however I believe there is a possibility that he was acting with other intentions as well. I disagree that it was a selfless decision for Marlene.

>Marlene's Recorder 1)
"It's 5:30PM on... April 28th. I just finished speaking... More like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the fucking kid. And now they're asking for my go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... So be it."

>Marlene's Recorder 2)
"Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times...

Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon."

So with all of that in mind I can't call Joel totally selfish. They wanted to kill Joel because he did his job and they didn't give Elli the choice. They made it for her and the person that was supposed to be taking care of Elli threw her to the wolves for a chance that they could find a cure. I would do the same thing as Joel just out of principle if nothing else.

Paragraph 3- I don't think Joel lies to Elli to protect her innocence, as they have both seen each other do horrible things to survive, so much as to keep her from experiencing guilt over what might have happened. Be it survivor's guilt or simply second guessing the whole situation. Although I will concede that in the back of Joel's mind he is probably also lying so this girl he identifies as his daughter now will stay with him.

Paragraph 4- This is the gut shot, but how was Joel supposed to know? If the Fireflies had just sat Joel and Elli down in the same room and explained the situation this whole mess could have been avoided. Elli could have made her decision and Joel would have either accepted it or become the monster you seem to think he is.

I think there's probably a lot of different ways to view the end events - it's a been a while since I played it so I was a bit rusty on the details and you make a strong case. My post was really more about my interpretation of events as they happened, right or wrong, and why I found them so impactful at the time. The beauty of a game like this is that you can see it in a number of different lights and revise your opinion in retrospect.

 

[mmmikey]

So...does it get better? When does it get better?

1. Yes I realize part of the issue is I'm a bit shit aiming with controllers.
2. Please avoid spoilers.

So far the game has been a crushing disappointment. 75% aggravation, 25% enjoyment. I've said "Fuck this, I'm done" a few times now, and one of these times I'm going to end up meaning it.

I'm in pretty much the same camp as you. I don't think I was as frustrated as you were, but found the game to be underwhelming to the resounding amount of perfect scores the gaming community at large gave it.

I'd have to say the Winter chapter is worth slogging through the first 70% or so of the game. You'll have upgrades that will have gotten you past a lot of the nagging issues that I think ND has with all their games. There's a whole town used as an arena. The game doesn't break its linearity but I felt like it was its most open at this point.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

I loved it but I won't play it again unlike some other games like R&C which are just fun. I will say I almost rage quit because I HATED Joel for most of the game. He's an asshole and I wanted to shot HIM in the head

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Spoiler

You see? I thought the Fireflies were established enough to be seen in the same light as the military. The Fireflies were executing the military and their families in the streets of that one overrun quarantine area you pass through. That was enough for me because the military was executing Firefly members at the beginning of the game. Everything else just enforced that, especially the hospital. If you listen to Marlene at the end before Joel goes Rambo the Fireflies wanted to kill Joel just because. Joel had gone above and beyond what the Fireflies had hired him to do and that is how they were going to repay him?

Spoiler

If I remember the section your talking about correctly, it wasn't the fireflies that were executing military personnel and their families in the streets, it was a group of hunters. Essentially the fireflies incited a rebellion in a town, and a lot of people joined them because they were tired of being oppressed by the military, and then they went too far, and when the fireflies tried to stop them they turned against the fireflies as well. In that town there were groups of both military and fireflies that had been killed by the inhabitants. The fireflies sparked the rebellion against the military, but then it got away from them and turned into something they hadn't anticipated and didn't want to be a part of.

The fireflies aren't exactly choir boys throughout the game, but I do think they were supposed to be the defacto "good guys" or as close to "good" as you can get in a setting like the one presented in Last of Us.

 

[Sarge034]

I think there's probably a lot of different ways to view the end events - it's a been a while since I played it so I was a bit rusty on the details and you make a strong case. My post was really more about my interpretation of events as they happened, right or wrong, and why I found them so impactful at the time. The beauty of a game like this is that you can see it in a number of different lights and revise your opinion in retrospect.

I kindda figured, and I wasn't trying to attack your views or interpretation just add my own to the mix. As you say there are a lot of different ways to view what happened and I do love dabbling in philosophy for a good conversation.

The fireflies aren't exactly choir boys throughout the game, but I do think they were supposed to be the defacto "good guys" or as close to "good" as you can get in a setting like the one presented in Last of Us.

I believe we were supposed to start thinking of them like that, but then come to the realization they were there to reinforce the point that there are no "good guys". Everyone has an agenda, everyone is out for themselves and their people.

Edit- Completely forgot to address your spoiler box. Derp moment.

Spoiler

If I remember correctly the Fireflies started the rebellion and was involved with the executions and public display of the corpses as a warning to those who would oppose them. There was not infighting until the residents refused to help the larger Firefly movement at which time the residents drove the Fireflies out and became bandits.