The Main Reason why Indoctrination Theory is Wrong :)

[Zen Toombs]

okay, you know what? From my experience as a Dungeon master of many games, if I were in bioware's shoes, I would take the Indoctrination Theory and fucking RUN WITH IT. If your players can present you a more interesting conclusion or interpretation to the clues you left them, fucking GO FOR IT. Art can be a collaborative process, maybe bioware was just feeling the strain and couldn't get what they wanted to do straight, that's understandable, it's happened to me plenty of times, but when a player gives you an idea that's BETTER than what you had, take it and play it off like it was the plan all along, Xanatos speed chess THAT *****. I've rewritten countless adventures on the fly because a player came up with something better than I did, and you know what? Everyone enjoyed the game more as a result.

So be a good DM bioware, Adapt the material, make it better.

Yes, yes oh god yes. My experience as a DM has led me on the same path. If your players have a better idea than you had, take the idea and RUN. This Theory allows for the game to end on a note that doesn't clash with the series as a whole, and allows them to end the series in a way that is closer to how they said it would be.

 

[Zen Toombs]

My theory is that Shepard died on Eden Prime activating the Prothean beacon, and every event since then has been an elaborate part of a highly intricate death dream.

Luckily, my theory is supported by just about everything in the game:

1. The story has been convoluted from the second you hear about the hokey dokey ancient mystical alien race (for those keeping score, that's like a few minutes into the first game).

2. A meaningless exposition character pops in to explain the entire thing before Shepard's final breath.

3. It's convenient. Much like the Indoctrination theory, it can explain anything. Game writers can't be held accountable for how shoddy their work was when it never really happened. Why should we limit it to Mass Effect? Uwe Boll movies have all been reaper indoctrination. Isn't he just sooooo clever?

......Really? You're gonna go there? Because the story wasn't all that convoluted, at all. Also, everything but the ending of the game wasn't shoddily written (for the most part).

 

[WanderingFool]

Wait.... people still believe the indoctrination theory. When will you people learn that the endings were poorly written.

That's more or less what it comes down to, isn't it?

I think Occam's Razor can be applied here. What's more likely:

(1) That Bioware deliberately did the opposite of what they advertised, creating a Shyamalan-esque twist ending (because everybody loves those, and that's why Shyamalan movies always dominate the box office for months at a time) as part of some secret master plan to needlessly galvanize their fanbase into waiting several months for the "real" ending to their Biggest Game Ever, or

(2) That they just plain fucked up?

I really have to go with Door #2 here. They slapped together a shitty, last-minute hack-job of an ending, possibly because EA didn't give them a chance to do better; it blew up in their faces, and now half the fanbase is twisting itself into pretzels to give them an excuse for it (no offense intended, but that's what it seems like to me) while the other half is threatening never to buy their games again (that's the half I'm in, by the way).

I just can't believe they would do this to themselves on purpose.

Ahhh, Occam's Razor... I really wish I had more chances to use that in a conversation.

To OP: I think of indoctrination theory as a more Schrödinger's ending. If, like you, you dont have a high enough EMS, than there is no indoctrination. If you do, than its indoctrination. Its more part of the grieving process (denial, I believe) than anything.

 

[Moth_Monk]

As for the things from the dreams well...saying that because there a few bushes similar to the ones Shepard dreams about around, so it must be an illusion, is a bit like me saying that because I had a dream with cars in and then when I woke up I saw some similar cars, later on in the day; therefore I must still be asleep!?

It's more likely that Shepard dreamed about the bushes because they were bushes from Earth, which of course are on Earth at teh end.

But in the end run where Shep is running towards the... beam-of-light-thing-that-teleports-you-to-the-Crucible,[footnote]the part where Shep gets zapped by [Harbringer]Lazer[/footnote] there are no trees. When Shep stands up from being blasted, there are now trees. And those previously invisible[footnote]'cuz you couldn't see them[/footnote] and indestructable[footnote]'cuz they weren't destroyed by [Harbinger]Laser spam[/footnote] trees look exactly the same as the ones in your PTSD/Indoctrination dreams.

EDIT: Did not realize this was already four pages. If this has already been addressed, my bad!

The guy in the video actually addresses this. Before Shepard gets hit by the laser there ARE trees around.

 

[zefiris]

The indoctrination theory isn't a theory because we can't falsify it. It's a mere hypothesis. It can explain anything, anything can be considered proof for it. I mean, people even cite plain bad writing as "proof" for it.

Yes, good writers can do mistakes. THey just did.

Face it, it's just another rushed, poorly done ending. We can see this right from official material. This happens in many games. That's all there is to it.

 

[Moth_Monk]

This video is pretty good too.

 

[Zen Toombs]

The guy in the video actually addresses this. Before Shepard gets hit by the laser there ARE trees around.

No, there aren't.

Well, correction - there are trees around, but they are all near the spawn point. There are no trees or bushes beyond half of the run to the Citadel.
I will say that the Makos that appear is not evidence either way - Shep was knocked unconscious, and it's entirely possible that a pair of Makos charged the Citadel after Shep was out.

As for the rest of the video... the guy had a really annoying & droning voice, and was being incredibly dismissive. Yes, he's attempting to debunk the Indoctrination Theory (hereafter referred to as IT for space and time), but one can simply say "hey, IT says that there are no trees. Here are trees. IT says x, here is the response to it. IT says y, and here is the explanation" as opposed to repeatedly adding that "people who believe in IT just aren't looking for the facts".

The indoctrination theory isn't a theory because we can't falsify it. It's a mere hypothesis. It can explain anything, anything can be considered proof for it. I mean, people even cite plain bad writing as "proof" for it.

....These are laypeople talking. They don't know the scientific definition of "Theory" or "Hypothesis". In colloquial terms, theory and hypothesis are identical, and the difference between the two is merely semantics in this context.

Also, Indoctrination Theory doesn't explain everything, and not everything is evidence for it. As has been said, there are a number of points on both sides of the theory.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

I will not stand for anyone slandering Marauder Shields!

<youtube=467pmIX-oZo&feature=related>

i just want to thank you for introducing me to the man, NAY, the LEGEND known as Marauder Shields. simultaneously the final boss and greatest hero of the series, let us never forget his heroism.

long live Marauder Shields.

I second this.

He lived as Marauder shields and died as Marauder health. NEVER FORGET

What if...Bioware indoctrinated US all along?

 

[Moth_Monk]

As for the rest of the video... the guy had a really annoying & droning voice, and was being incredibly dismissive. Yes, he's attempting to debunk the Indoctrination Theory (hereafter referred to as IT for space and time), but one can simply say "hey, IT says that there are no trees. Here are trees. IT says x, here is the response to it. IT says y, and here is the explanation" as opposed to repeatedly adding that "people who believe in IT just aren't looking for the facts".

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

No, I didn't see that part. Can you tell me which video it's in and how far it is? Because I have zero interest in slogging through even another thirty seconds of that guy if I don't have to.

Also, I will point out something. When I first saw that scene I thought it was on Earth, and that was before I had ever heard of IT.

 

[Korten12]

As for the rest of the video... the guy had a really annoying & droning voice, and was being incredibly dismissive. Yes, he's attempting to debunk the Indoctrination Theory (hereafter referred to as IT for space and time), but one can simply say "hey, IT says that there are no trees. Here are trees. IT says x, here is the response to it. IT says y, and here is the explanation" as opposed to repeatedly adding that "people who believe in IT just aren't looking for the facts".

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

No, it didn't. There is no way it could have taken place on the Citadel. There was concret around the breahthing scene. There is no concret in the Citadel. >.>

 

[Moth_Monk]

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

No, I didn't see that part. Can you tell me which video it's in and how far it is? Because I have zero interest in slogging through even another thirty seconds of that guy if I don't have to.

Also, I will point out something. When I first saw that scene I thought it was on Earth, and that was before I had ever heard of IT.

Watch the video "ME3 - Indoctrination Theory Debunked - further explanation"

 

[Moth_Monk]

Well, well, well, so much for the bushes around the beam being part of the indoctrination!

 

[Kiardras]

Wait.... people still believe the indoctrination theory. When will you people learn that the endings were poorly written.

That's more or less what it comes down to, isn't it?

and now half the fanbase is twisting itself into pretzels to give them an excuse for it (no offense intended, but that's what it seems like to me)

If Bioware truly care about their fans and the story, they can use it. Maybe people are looking too hard at IDT, but at the end of the day, Bioware fucked up, and if they want to try and make right, the fans have given them the perfect out.

 

[thememan]

As for the things from the dreams well...saying that because there a few bushes similar to the ones Shepard dreams about around, so it must be an illusion, is a bit like me saying that because I had a dream with cars in and then when I woke up I saw some similar cars, later on in the day; therefore I must still be asleep!?

It's more likely that Shepard dreamed about the bushes because they were bushes from Earth, which of course are on Earth at teh end.

But in the end run where Shep is running towards the... beam-of-light-thing-that-teleports-you-to-the-Crucible,[footnote]the part where Shep gets zapped by [Harbringer]Lazer[/footnote] there are no trees. When Shep stands up from being blasted, there are now trees. And those previously invisible[footnote]'cuz you couldn't see them[/footnote] and indestructable[footnote]'cuz they weren't destroyed by [Harbinger]Laser spam[/footnote] trees look exactly the same as the ones in your PTSD/Indoctrination dreams.

EDIT: Did not realize this was already four pages. If this has already been addressed, my bad!

Actually, I wondered about this. So I specifically made an effort to look around. There are plenty of trees in the area of the exact same type as after you blasted. You simply don't notice them as they are in the peripheral areas and only a couple in the main lane. Infact, the trees are identical to the ones you see after being blasted.

That said, there are plenty of other pieces of evidence that line up with it. So really, Bioware either got ridiculously lucky by having so many incidental elements line up to provide a compelling case, or they planned it from the start. Take your pick, really.

 

[thememan]

This video is pretty good too.

The guy, frankly, is an annoying idiot. In the first video, I got to "conspiracy theory" and immediately stopped watching. That said, it's hardly compelling one way or the other as far as his "deconstruction" goes, as the rubble can easily be explained for IDT theory also and earth based. Really, the hardest thing to reconcile with the whole thing being "real" is how in the nine hells does one survive a massive explosion in space, entry into the atmosphere, and the inevitable crash landing that is to occur without any sort of protective or survival gear? I can understand the bad writting argument, but this is just full-blown, Hail-Mary style stupidity in writing. Something that not even bad writers do.

That said, it the video is stretching at straws a bit in trying to be "conclusive". Most of what he showed is "meh" in the least in terms of actual conclusivity.

Edit: Also the fact that he has a FF X-III wallpaper immediately destroys his credibility. That massive pile of crap of a game with a paper thin story destroys any reliability I put in somebody.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Actually, I wondered about this. So I specifically made an effort to look around. There are plenty of trees in the area of the exact same type as after you blasted. You simply don't notice them as they are in the peripheral areas and only a couple in the main lane. Infact, the trees are identical to the ones you see after being blasted.

That said, there are plenty of other pieces of evidence that line up with it. So really, Bioware either got ridiculously lucky by having so many incidental elements line up to provide a compelling case, or they planned it from the start. Take your pick, really.

To your first paragraph: Hmm, I didn't notice that, thanks for the update!
To your second paragraph: the answer is yes. mathematician's answer ho!

 

[Zen Toombs]

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

No, I didn't see that part. Can you tell me which video it's in and how far it is? Because I have zero interest in slogging through even another thirty seconds of that guy if I don't have to.

Also, I will point out something. When I first saw that scene I thought it was on Earth, and that was before I had ever heard of IT.

Watch the video "ME3 - Indoctrination Theory Debunked - further explanation"

.......it is the same guy, and he's talking in the same voice. As I said, no interest in seeing more than a second of this guy I don't have to, but I am interested in seeing the facts for myself. Can you please tell me where in that video it is? Like is it at 2:15 or at 5:17 or at 93:87?

 

[Moth_Monk]

This video is pretty good too.

The guy, frankly, is an annoying idiot. In the first video, I got to "conspiracy theory" and immediately stopped watching. That said, it's hardly compelling one way or the other as far as his "deconstruction" goes, as the rubble can easily be explained for IDT theory also and earth based. Really, the hardest thing to reconcile with the whole thing being "real" is how in the nine hells does one survive a massive explosion in space, entry into the atmosphere, and the inevitable crash landing that is to occur without any sort of protective or survival gear? I can understand the bad writting argument, but this is just full-blown, Hail-Mary style stupidity in writing. Something that not even bad writers do.

That said, it the video is stretching at straws a bit in trying to be "conclusive". Most of what he showed is "meh" in the least in terms of actual conclusivity.

Edit: Also the fact that he has a FF X-III wallpaper immediately destroys his credibility. That massive pile of crap of a game with a paper thin story destroys any reliability I put in somebody.

If you seriously disregard someone's argument based on their likes of some games - which has nothing to do with the argument - then you obviously can't think logically. You should read this to see why such reasoning fails: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ad hominem arguments work via the halo effect, a human cognitive bias in which the perception of one trait is influenced by the perception of an unrelated trait, e.g. treating an attractive person as more intelligent or more honest. People tend to see others as tending to all good or tending to all bad. Thus, if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if the bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments.

As for surviving falling, Shepard is a cyborg. But anyway the "breath scene" is meant to take place on the Citadel, on the walkway to the thing that is blown up in the destroy ending.

 

[Moth_Monk]

Did you watch his video on why the "breath scene" was actually taking place on the Citadel? I think the proof really destroys (ba-dum tss) IDT.

No, I didn't see that part. Can you tell me which video it's in and how far it is? Because I have zero interest in slogging through even another thirty seconds of that guy if I don't have to.

Also, I will point out something. When I first saw that scene I thought it was on Earth, and that was before I had ever heard of IT.

Watch the video "ME3 - Indoctrination Theory Debunked - further explanation"

.......it is the same guy, and he's talking in the same voice. As I said, no interest in seeing more than a second of this guy I don't have to, but I am interested in seeing the facts for myself. Can you please tell me where in that video it is? Like is it at 2:15 or at 5:17 or at 93:87?

Start from 2:00 mins and carry on for as long as you can endure.