The "Male Power Fantasy": what do women generally and actually find sexy?

[Burnouts3s3]

I have a question for the female members of this forum.

Spoiler

Often, when the issue of objectification is discussed, there comes to be a point where critics say "Men are objectified too". The response is usually, "That's an example of false equivalence; that is not the same thing as those are figures for men to idolize", otherwise known as the male power fantasy.

But, there's been a large output of media, marketed towards women, especially on billboards and on the covers of harlequin romance novels that show men that are well-built and/or muscular. Other characters in novels such as 50 shades of Grey and Twilight focus on men's abdominals, pectorals, biceps and other areas of physique.

The mainstream generalizes that men are attracted to women with large breasts, skinny waists, and large butts (note that this is a generalization and does not apply to every man, especially those with different sexual orientation). What are physical attributes women generally find attractive in a man?

 

[BreakfastMan]

Yes, many women find well-built men sexy (though a lot of women like men on the skinnier side as well). Notice the "well-built" there. Not overly muscular and scarred. Face is also INCREDIBLY important as well (as that above web-comic illustrates). I mean, there is a difference between Marcus Fenix/Kratos and Dante. Most women I know don't want Rob Liefeld characters.

 

[Eamar]

I'm a woman who swings both ways and I can honestly, hand on heart say that I'm not overly fussy when it comes to physique for men or women so long as they're healthy.

Now that's out of the way... objectification. You have to realise it's about so much more than just body shape: it's about how they're posed/shot (the camera gratuitously lingering on Miranda's ass in Mass Effect 2 and 3), the character's motivations and reasons for existing (for example, female characters are often the token love interest - they only exist so the male lead can get some). The differences between how male and female superheroes are posed in comics is really striking. Honestly you'd have to be blind not to see it.

Ever heard of the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a project where people take artwork of female characters and then draw a male superhero (usually Hawkeye) in the same pose. It really highlights how blatant and ridiculous the whole situation it. Check it out.

 

[Lilani]

I have a question for the female members of this forum.

Spoiler

Often, when the issue of objectification is discussed, there comes to be a point where critics say "Men are objectified too". The response is usually, "That's an example of false equivalence; that is not the same thing as those are figures for men to idolize", otherwise known as the male power fantasy.

But, there's been a large output of media, marketed towards women, especially on billboards and on the covers of harlequin romance novels that show men that are well-built and/or muscular. Other characters in novels such as 50 shades of Grey and Twilight focus on men's abdominals, pectorals, biceps and other areas of physique.

The mainstream generalizes that men are attracted to women with large breasts, skinny waists, and large butts (note that this is a generalization and does not apply to every man, especially those with different sexual orientation). What are physical attributes women generally find attractive in a man?

Hey, if you're going to talk about me feel free to send a message

It's a false equivalence not just because the criteria are different. It's because they are done for different reasons, they are choices made with two different end results in mind. The male power fantasy exists to appeal to what men think when they think of being powerful. The female sexual fantasy exists to appeal to what women think of when they think of a sexy man. Is there a bit of overlap? Yes, but as BreakfastMan pointed out Marcus Fenix is muscular and manly but not really what women think of when they think "sexy."

And you'll notice on that covers it's not just that they're muscular. Those men also happen to be missing their shirts, or if they are wearing shirts they're unbuttoned in an inviting way. There's also no chest hair and no facial hair apart from maybe some five o'clock shadow. Hell a few of them don't even have faces--some guns and a nice pair of abs. Games have plenty of muscular men, but they're pretty much always advertised with their faces intact. So you can the fire and determination in their eyes. But no, these are displayed more like females are advertised in games--tits first, face second. And if there is a face, they're either emphasizing those sexy, smoldering eyes or demurely hiding them to add some sexy mystique. Everything about those covers is to appeal to different feminine ideas of masculine sexiness--clean, sensual, intimate, and mysterious.

 

[viscomica]

Well, yes men can be objectified too. I think once I heard a joke about teenage girls making instagram albums (or something of the sort) called "eyecandy" or "omg chris hemsworth shirtless" and that if teenage boys dared to do something like that about girls it would suddenly stop being ok. I don't think seeing men or women as sexual objects should be ok but... let's be real, whoever says they never ever ever had a thought of a celebrety such as "I would bang" or anything along those lines is a big fat liar. You know it!

 

[Vault101]

The difference is a "make power fantasy" is not seen as an object of desire, Kratos is not there for our viewing pleasure

Also those romance novels are not male power fantasys, they are romantic fantasys by and for women.

 

[mecegirl]

The way I see it, with animated or illustrated characters, several things can help them appear attractive.

The characters personality and how that personality is infused within their chracter design is one. And the way that the chracter is posed is another.


Let's take Kratos for an example. He gets brought up as proof that male characters are sexualized because of his lack of clothing. And while I'm sure some heterosexual woman somewhere likes him that way (because even Pyramid head has fangirls), most don't seem too. With a chracter like Kratos its not his body type. Plenty of women find Dwayne Johnson attractive and he's huge. But Kratos doesn't have the nicest face,and he's not really likeable either. There isn't much to go for unless you have a particular fetish. When you make a list of video game characters that have lots of female fans they tend to be likeable in some way. They also tend to be more slender, but the way I see it the body size seems to be an unfortunate byproduct of two things.

The first is stereotyping. Large muscular male characters are almost always super serious, broody, scowly men. It all about how powerful they are physically. Even just looking at Chris Redfeild and Leon Kennedy. Chris isn't super broody but as luck would have it Leon is a lot more laid back.

The second is that the artists have a habit of drawing large men like nothing more than boulders. Breakfast Man brought up Rob Liefeld. He's horrible at that, and several comic book artists follow his example. Its to the point that a chracter can be made more attractive just by hiring an artist that knows how to draw characters as if they are alive. Muscle moves, and movement, or the implication of movement, is part of what makes illustrations attractive. Simply drawing a chracter with a more relaxed posture can make them more attractive because it makes them look approachable (double points if the chracter is smiling). For example. While there is nothing wrong with his physique, this pictue

Spoiler

Sends a different message than this picture.

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Its not hard to guess which one could be considered the more attractive/flattering picture.


Take the way that female superhero comicbook fans flock(no pun intended) to Nightwing. A lot of artists who draw Nightwing emphasize movement for his chracter. And that movement mirrors several attractive traits, like flexibility, youth, and a sense of humor(Even for the short time that Dick Grayson was Batman artists focused on his gymnastic abilities). And while Batman is pretty flexible himself, despite the fact that he isn't a tank like Superman, he is often drawn to emphasize physical strength. He doesn't smile much either.

So basically this

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vs this

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Both of them are fighting an enemy, but Nightwing might be one of the only male characters that gets the same crazy camera angles.

 

[flying_whimsy]

Ever heard of the Hawkeye Initiative? It's a project where people take artwork of female characters and then draw a male superhero (usually Hawkeye) in the same pose. It really highlights how blatant and ridiculous the whole situation it. Check it out.

I've heard about the issue with comics, but since I don't read them very often I didn't have much of a basis for comparison. That website makes it quite clear at how silly many of the poses are, but I have to admit I laughed a lot at some of those pictures.

OT: I've always wondered if there is a female equivalent to the male power fantasy. I think this gets overlooked a lot whenever this question of objectification and male power fantasies come up. I wouldn't expect a female empowerment fantasy to necessarily be a power fantasy like it is for males. For men the fantasy is usually about idealizing the things that typically define masculinity (strength, physical fitness, stoicism, martial and/or sexual conquest, etc.), but what would a fantasy that appeals to women based on what it is to be a woman be like? I honestly can't even begin to guess. Would it be a fantasy about being the ultimate ideal of femininity? Not likely, given that from what I understand most of the standards for being feminine are dictated by men. Otherwise the classic Disney Princess thing (tiny waist, quiet demeanor, fancy dresses, makeup, and a mission to be nothing more than a baby factory for a prince) would be the ultimate equivalent of the male power fantasy, and just about all of the women I know would take issue with that.

So I guess my question isn't actually the same as the OP's, mine is more along the lines of what would be the sort of fantasy that appeals to a woman the same way as male power fantasy appeals to a man?

Captcha: "Which one is the hottest?" Well played, captcha.

 

[Lorien077]

OT: I've always wondered if there is a female equivalent to the male power fantasy. I think this gets overlooked a lot whenever this question of objectification and male power fantasies come up. I wouldn't expect a female empowerment fantasy to necessarily be a power fantasy like it is for males. For men the fantasy is usually about idealizing the things that typically define masculinity (strength, physical fitness, stoicism, martial and/or sexual conquest, etc.), but what would a fantasy that appeals to women based on what it is to be a woman be like? I honestly can't even begin to guess. Would it be a fantasy about being the ultimate ideal of femininity? Not likely, given that from what I understand most of the standards for being feminine are dictated by men. Otherwise the classic Disney Princess thing (tiny waist, quiet demeanor, fancy dresses, makeup, and a mission to be nothing more than a baby factory for a prince) would be the ultimate equivalent of the male power fantasy, and just about all of the women I know would take issue with that.

So I guess my question isn't actually the same as the OP's, mine is more along the lines of what would be the sort of fantasy that appeals to a woman the same way as male power fantasy appeals to a man?

Captcha: "Which one is the hottest?" Well played, captcha.

I think you raise a good point here. Perhaps some fellow ladies of the forums could share with us what they would like to see in a female power fantasy type game?

Though come to think of it I don't think it'd be much different from a male power fantasy, other than perhaps less of an interest in being a bulky tank. (But I'm fairly certain most menfolk would agree that a customizable character would be cooler than a pre-set, so you could make the character look like your ideal) Being powerful and saving the day (without sexiness being mandatory because the character is female) would be perfect in my book.

 

[Lotet]

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I thought the typical female fantasy perpetuated by all those novels aimed at them is to be a normal girl who is sad because of life. Then lovely non-threatening men come to save them from a mundane life and make all the people who hated her sad. Then she gets to make all the decisions that turn the lives of the people around her. Everyone who disagrees with her will be proved wrong before the end. Sometimes she is magical and I don't know any of them involving her killing a human herself.

Am I close?

 

[DementedSheep]

-snip-

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I thought the typical female fantasy perpetuated by all those novels aimed at them is to be a normal girl who is sad because of life. Then lovely non-threatening men come to save them from a mundane life and make all the people who hated her sad. Then she gets to make all the decisions that turn the lives of the people around her. Everyone who disagrees with her will be proved wrong before the end. Sometimes she is magical and I don't know any of them involving her killing a human herself.

Am I close?

Those are not power fantasy, it's ?I can?t even imagine a life when I'm not a completely useless ***** so I?ll fantasies about a superior guy dragging me out of this?. Fuck them.

 

[flying_whimsy]

Though come to think of it I don't think it'd be much different from a male power fantasy, other than perhaps less of an interest in being a bulky tank. (But I'm fairly certain most menfolk would agree that a customizable character would be cooler than a pre-set, so you could make the character look like your ideal) Being powerful and saving the day (without sexiness being mandatory because the character is female) would be perfect in my book.

I wasn't just talking about games, as I would like to see some examples of male-power-fantasy-equivalents in other media as well. That said, I'm talking as much about the finer details as I am about the basic plot ones: even if a female fantasy would involve having a lot of power and saving the day (which I'm unsure about, which is why I'm asking the question in the first place), there are a lot of things that could be very different about it. From symbols and metaphors to even the way the heroine would approach the problem, I would expect a female power fantasy to be substantially different in tone from a male one. I doubt a gender-swapped Gurren Lagann would have so many phallic drills, bouncing boobs, and all that endless manly will power and stoicism.

The root of my question, though, isn't what would a female power fantasy be like, but what would be equivalent in appeal and gratification in a fantasy for a woman? Would it still be a fantasy about beating enemies into submission, saving the day, and winning the heart of the love-interest/eye-candy or would it be something that has less violence and conquest? My mom took the 80s image of the power-lunch businesswoman to heart and spent most of the 90s modeling herself towards being the kind of woman that ran her own company and dominated in the board room. I have another friend where her power fantasy would probably involve being able to heal the injured as a doctor or maybe an EMT. I also know one woman that wants to be a stay at home wife more than anything in the world because she just wants to meet her soul-mate, get married, and be a mother; she's always worried about coming across as boring she'd want me to mention that her hobbies include skydiving and working behind the scenes at comic conventions.

An empowerment fantasy isn't always about violence (which is usually the basis for male power fantasies); it can be about freedom, leadership, love and/or sex, and anything else that appeals to the essence of whatever it is you happen to be. Generally speaking, what is that fantasy for women?

(Sorry this is so long, I've been up waaaaay too late and I use more words the longer I'm awake.)

 

[Vault101]

snip

it can be anything

but I think more to the point its about being a "person" first and foremost...not an object of desire OR there to serve a male charachters development or "feels" (as much as we love say... Alyx Vance)

makes me think of gravity, even though she was crying and freaking out

its just her...and space...and survival...thats it, now it could be interpreted many ways (she needs a maaaaan to help her, ect) but personally I thourght it was great, because it was just her...and space

 

[Lieju]

I have a question for the female members of this forum.

Spoiler

Those romance covers aren't presented as a 'male power fantasy'. It's not just about the physique. Those men are just standing there, looking pretty and shiny. In some cases you can't even see their face.

And when there is a woman in the picture, it's not focused on showing her body.
Those men are being objectified about as much as a lot of female characters.

Which is not a good thing. Even ignoring objectification, those poses lack personality as much as the generic 'sticking both my boobs and tits out' pose for women does. It tells you nothing about the story (which is not surprising since the pictures probably weren't taken specifically for a book), or the character of the hunky guy.

 

[Steve Waltz]

And you'll notice on that covers it's not just that they're muscular. Those men also happen to be missing their shirts, or if they are wearing shirts they're unbuttoned in an inviting way. There's also no chest hair and no facial hair apart from maybe some five o'clock shadow. Hell a few of them don't even have faces--some guns and a nice pair of abs. Games have plenty of muscular men, but they're pretty much always advertised with their faces intact. So you can the fire and determination in their eyes. But no, these are displayed more like females are advertised in games--tits first, face second. And if there is a face, they're either emphasizing those sexy, smoldering eyes or demurely hiding them to add some sexy mystique. Everything about those covers is to appeal to different feminine ideas of masculine sexiness--clean, sensual, intimate, and mysterious.

You're totally right; when I look at those book covers I think "boyfriend material" rather than "bad-ass hero," but isn't that the point he was trying to make? These men are fantasies, put on the cover of books and being sexualized to sell a product to women, just like how women are fantasized and objectified to sell products to men in other mediums. Not that I think it's a bad thing...

Honestly, I think it's a good thing that these men are being objectified on female romance novel covers -- I wish male objectification would happen more often. You see, I feel guilty because I enjoy women objectification to an extent, and it gets frustrating when feminists slap me in the face with a protest sign about equality. How about, rather than taking away something for equality, why not just make the situation equal by trying to give women the same thing? More generic half-naked pretty-boy men in comics and video games! It probably doesn't happen too much in the geek scene because marketers don't think they can make money by marketing the woman demography. Hopefully sooner than later, someone realizes that they actually can make money by marketing towards the woman demography in video games (I can't say for comic books; that's not my scene).

 

[Lotet]

Those are not power fantasy, it's ?I can?t even imagine a life when I'm not a completely useless ***** so I?ll fantasies about a superior guy dragging me out of this?. Fuck them.

Oh? I thought it was more along the lines of the Glorious Queen kind of power. Influencing everyone by being so great at everything the author likes. So a Mary Sue.

 

[balladbird]

For my two cents, I think your confusion stems from a bit of a misunderstanding. The line separating the male power fantasy from the female sex fantasy is intent, not the subject itself.

No one can claim with a straight face that characters like Nathan Drake have no female fans who lust after them. Well, they can, I guess, but all it would take is a cursory fanfiction search to prove them incontestably wrong. However, he wasn't created to be so, or rather, he's appealing to ladies because that's yet another trait men aspire to possess, and he's pretty much a creation designed to help males live out their fantasies of being a badass, suave, quick-witted rebel without a cause.

There's less than nothing wrong with escapist fantasy, mind. it makes this drab and dull reality infinitely more tolerable, but trying to point out that the heroes of video games are conventionally attractive too, and thus males have it just as bad as females in games, is just laughable.

 

[mecegirl]

It wouldn't be much different than a male power fantasy. A power fantasy is a power fantasy. So long as the chracter that you are supposed to be relating too has the power to change things then that's the fantasy. The only difference that I can think of is that the love interest wouldn't necessarily be helpless. Take the Hunger Games as an example. Both of the characters that fit the love interest role aren't passive. They don't do as much as Katniss does, but they aren't the male equivalent of Damsels in distress either.

Most of the novels that I have read that are within the Action Adventure, Sci fi, and Fantasy genres with a female protagonists, the protag tends to have a heroic significant other. Sometimes he's just as physical as she is. And sometimes it plays out with him being the magic guy, or just her sidekick (and that happens a bit more often with male protags now days too. Kinda like how Alyx Vance works).

 

[Eamar]

OT: I've always wondered if there is a female equivalent to the male power fantasy.

I think it varies massively from woman to woman, but for me the current Captain Marvel (as written by Kelly Sue Deconnick) fits the bill pretty perfectly:

Spoiler

You'll notice that (like all superheroes) she still has a pretty amazing figure, because that's not the real issue. Like all superheroes, she wears a skintight costume, but lo! Full skin coverage, like a male superhero! No boob window! No wince-inducing leotard getting chewed up by her ass!.

The posing is massively important too. If you read her comics, you'll see that she doesn't get drawn in the bizarre sexual poses, but is instead often presented face-on, or striking dynamic action poses, because she's a badass, powerful hero, not a sex object. That second picture is a deliberate shout out to the famous Rosie the Riveter poster that's often used as a female empowerment rallying tool:

Spoiler: Rosie the Riveter

And again, if you read her comics it's just nonstop female empowerment stuff. The first issue even has a lengthy monologue about how society tries to keep powerful women down, but Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel and her mentor refuse to bow to that and they break out anyway; it culminates in that first image I posted (which I actually have on a t shirt, because that whole section just resonated with me so much).

Basically, my female power fantasy isn't so very different from the male one (as far as superheroes go at least). These are the comics I wish I'd been able to read as a little girl.