The moral behind Skyrim's two factions

[nokori3byo]

Another question that lingers in the air like a bad smell is what chance would an Ulfric-lead independant Skyrim have of repelling the Thalmor on their own? Since the population of Skyrim seems to be around 42 (not including elk), I would say next to none (remember too that Nords are traditionally shite at magic). Looking to the supplementary lore we see that the Redguard fought the the Thalmor to a standstill, but that all happened off camera and we don't really know how many Redguard there are.

One thing that could definitely tip the ballance is if old Ulfy found a way to earn the allegiance of the Draugr, a la Aragorn in the Paths of the Dead. Draugr seem to outnumber living Nords by roughly 1000 to 1.

 

[iseeyouthere]

Where the option for saying:
"F this, I'm going back to Elsweyr."

No? Damn.
Empire. I made the mistake of going Stormcloak the first time around, but the land felt so crippled when the Stormclocks took over.

 

[8a88leph1sh]

I really really wanted to join the Stormcloaks. I loved the underdog feeling, the strong pride in Nordic heritage and I knew that they would actually fight back against the Thalmor like the Redguards (who succeeded by the way) unlike the appeasing Empire. In the end though I had to join the Imperials because the Stormcloaks' nationalism became racist hatred against all non-nords and especially my kind, the Dunmer. I thought that I might be able to make Ulfric trust non-nords by helping him take over Skyrim but I knew I wouldn't be able to convince anyone else so I chose the Legion because I knew they would always accept us. The only thing I wanted to do more than join the Stormcloaks was take over Skyrim for myself. I mean seriously I basically took over the whole country by myself anyway why did I have to hand it over to someone?

 

[nokori3byo]

The only thing I wanted to do more than join the Stormcloaks was take over Skyrim for myself. I mean seriously I basically took over the whole country by myself anyway why did I have to hand it over to someone?

A fair point given that the Dovakiin can win the respect of some pretty high level dragons (to say nothing of becoming an unkillable, death-breathing demi-god).

 

[Jandau]

Snip

You have no clue what Nazis are. I can tell just from your comparison of the Stormcloaks to Nazis. Go get some history lessons, pub.

And you have no clue what hyperbole is. Go get some language lessons, pub.

 

[ResonanceSD]

Also, as Jandau pointed out, Ulfric isn't exaactly "clean" himself -.-

After the third Stormcloak mission I'm like "yeah, I'm essentially a terrorist for the stormcloaks right now"

 

[Kiardras]

Trying to RP in character, I started the game as Bosmer, who the Imperials immediately tried to murder for no reason.

The stormcloaks rescued me, and so my initial loyalty was to them - but finding out they are just the same as all humans, squabbling, racist morons.

To hell with all of them, Humans have done nothing but harm for my character so why should I help either side fight against the Thalmor? They have done more for the Bosmer than any of the human empires.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

snip.

I vote you as the evil subconscious Dresden to my morally superior one.

The Stormcloaks were being Oppressed, plain and simple. Punished for their harmless beliefs and sick of their rather facist government.

I don't have to like the president of my country to agree with the war, hell I don't even have to support his intentions (not in this case if you read the dossier). Plus, it's the Thalmor versus the entire Imperial Legion, and last time I checked (I never have), it controlled a good part of Tamriel. Why couldn't they fight back? Because their Emperor was afraid to die? They can't see what the right thing to do is? Skyrim is prepared for war (and judging by how you played the game), were able to beat back the Legion.

Now, I was never to great at math, but if the rebels have the ability to defeat the Legion, and the only thing stopping the Thalmor from taking complete dominance is that Legion, than why do you not pool your resources to fight the mutual enemy?

 

[Jandau]

snip.

I vote you as the evil subconscious Dresden to my morally superior one.

The Stormcloaks were being Oppressed, plain and simple. Punished for their harmless beliefs and sick of their rather facist government.

I don't have to like the president of my country to agree with the war, hell I don't even have to support his intentions (not in this case if you read the dossier). Plus, it's the Thalmor versus the entire Imperial Legion, and last time I checked (I never have), it controlled a good part of Tamriel. Why couldn't they fight back? Because their Emperor was afraid to die? They can't see what the right thing to do is? Skyrim is prepared for war (and judging by how you played the game), were able to beat back the Legion.

Now, I was never to great at math, but if the rebels have the ability to defeat the Legion, and the only thing stopping the Thalmor from taking complete dominance is that Legion, than why do you not pool your resources to fight the mutual enemy?

I do not second your vote. Dresden gets riled up if innocents are being opressed. If douchebags are getting screwed, he's far less compassionate. Ulfric was a power-hungry jerk (in Dresden terms, I see him as Marcone).

Stormcloaks were being opressed? But they also opress others (see Dunmer in Windhelm for an example), so they're hardly the poor downtrodden. And it's not just them who had to suffer. It's not like only Nords worship Talos. There were shrines to Talon in Cyrodil. Imperials sucked it up, Nords are just being whiny.

Also, I'm not quite sure where you're going with that last part. The Empire lost the war. Thalmor went ahead and sacked the Imperial City. Imperials took the brunt of the war, protecting Skyrim among others. Imperial Legion barely managed to drive the Thalmor out of the Imperial City and that was the only thing that allowed them to negotiate ANY kind of terms instead of getting only the option to surrender. They didn't fight any more BEACUSE THEY WOULD HAVE LOST. They needed time to recover, to work out a strategy, and the only way they could do that was to get peace.

Again, I'd like to stress that it was Cyrodil that got sacked and burned by the Thalmor. Not Skyrim. the Nords could at least not whine about the whole Talos bit for a while and do their part.

Finally, your last paragraph (if I'm reading it well) you are saying that the Legion and the Rebels should join forces. Well whoop de doo! That's what they'd be doing if some moron (Ulfric) didn't go and start a bloody civil war. The same people who are in the Stormcloaks would be joining the Imperial Army and preparing to fight the Thalmor once again.

And once more, the player, having the benefit of additional knowledge (that Ulfric was manipulated by the Thalmor and started the civil war according to their wishes) can't really play dumb here. He can roleplay a dumb character, but in supporting Ulfric he is supporting a Thalmor pawn. Heck, it's stated outright that the ban on Talos worship was pretty much intended by the Thalmor to divide the humans. Starting a civil war over it basically means playing into their hands. Sucking it up, staying united and working to eventually push them back would be the correct answer.

Oh, and then we have Ulfric pretty much murdering a kid (Toryg) who he knew wouldn't be able to stand up to him. Dresden would LOVE that...

 

[Jandau]

snip.

snip

snip

Oh, and then we have Ulfric pretty much murdering a kid (Toryg) who he knew wouldn't be able to stand up to him. Dresden would LOVE that...

*snip*

Torygg was 20-something (he's also descibed as a "boy" by several characters) and Ulfric knew it was a guaranteed kill, since Ulfric had the Voice. Also, the wiki page you linked states outright that from what everyone could see, Torygg would have supported Ulfric against the Empire. The only practical reason he could have had for the duel was his own lust for power.

The Empire didn't bend over for the Thalmor. The war started BECAUSE The Empire REFUSED the demands of the Thalmor. Then, after half of Cyrodil was in flames and the Imperial City reduced to rubble, they managed to push the Thalmor back a bit and use that to get SOME kind of peace that wasn't a total surrender (THAT would have been bending over). How much did Skyrim suffer in that? How many cities got sacked? Zero. Cyrodil bore the brunt of the war and how does Ulfric repay that? By stabbing them in the back the first chance he gets. All for the sake of his own power.

He's using the fears and patriotism of his own people to drive them into a war that will only hurt them and may well lead to a total defeat for mankind. Just as the Thalmor want.

 

[Spygon]

First i ended up following the Imperial during the first mission but that was only because i was running for my goddamn life from a dragon.I did not have time to look around and see what everbody else was doing.

Then i tried to stay neutral as both seemed to have decent reasons for the choices.But the more i learned about the two sides and the more i talked with their leaders the more i could see that Ulfric really did not back up his actions with any solid reasons.

He wiped out the citzens of the reach who had took over with a pretty much fight with us or die campaign.Then fabriated how he killed the high king that is shown by every comment from any eye witness that is not ulfric.From his comments on the war with Galmar Stone-Fist show that is more than willing to turn on people who do not agree with him.

The Empire are struggling and have made so bad choices but at least they seem to have been put in a bad postion pretty much between fighting a losing war with Dominion or upsetting a part of the Empire.

But it really came down to a random comment from a legion guard when he said to me."The stormcloaks seem to not realise we are the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim"

Then i thought yeah alone the provinces of the Empire have no chance standing up againt the Dominion yes there are problems with the Empire but these are not the time to bring them up.The Empire needs to stand united to stop the Dominion

 

[MaxwellEdison]

The Imperials are oppressing Skyrim, whether they like that they've been forced to do it or not.
I feel like most of the debate is around the Stormcloaks, and whether or not they're good enough to join. For me, the racism isn't too much of an issue. I'd rather have a free society with racists in it than an oppressive one (the oppressive one being a bit racist in its own right, from what I can see.) The real problem to address is the fact that the Stormcloaks are going to cause issues with the Thalmor. Here's the thing, your character is can harness the power of dragons, and destroy the Empire holdings in Skyrim in a few days. It's not as if the Stormcloaks are neutered.

Note: I've only played Skyrim, so this answer is basically the same as what my character would have seen. If anyone wants to enlighten me to other facts, go ahead! I saw above that the Empire is "useless at everything it does" - can anyone speak to that?

 

[MaxwellEdison]

Big Question:
The Empire and the Stormcloaks are basically on even footing at military powers. That's why it's a "bloody civil war" that's basically at a stalemate until you show up.
How come a Stormcloak victory destabilizes the region when an Empire victory would have the same result, namely, having one half of the population resent their current ruler?
How come the Empire is strong enough to attack the elves after the civil war if they struggle to deal with rebels, but rebels strong enough to defeat said empire aren't strong enough to keep the elves out?

Could anyone for the Empire answer that for me?

 

[Jandau]

*the big snip*

Fair enough, I agree that the Empire isn't blameless and that they could have handled some of that better. However, it comes down to this (at least to me):

Thalmor want the civil war to remain a stalemate. This is spelled outright for the player during the Diplomatic Immunity quest. Therefore, the civil war must be resolved, staying out of it means you are indirectly helping the Thalmor.

Out of the two sides in the war, Stormcloaks are led by a complete douchebag who is to some extent being manipulated by the Thalmor. There's no way I'm siding with him. The Empire might not be spotless, but they are much better than Ulfric. Hence, it's a matter of picking the lesser evil...

 

[magma]

I chose the Imperials for the following reasons.

1. Not choosing a side means both incompetent sides are in a stalemate, which means the Thalmor win. Both sides hate the Thalmor as much as I did and both are corrupted by their influence to some degree BUT what tilts it is if I won it for the Stormcloaks another war would likely start (for reason 2).

2. The Stormcloaks' command are horrendously racist/nationalistic. They would likely cause a new civil war of nationalistic Nords vs everyone who is tired of their bullshit (if they won the current civil war). I'm not going to end a civil war just to have another one.

3. I don't know why the Imperials tried to have me executed but when saying hi (and about that whole execution thing) later to each army, only the Imperials seemed like they: were sorry about what happened to me, regretted the whole incident occurring and didn't really give a damn about my past as long as I stay true to what I did now.

4. I like Whiterun. It's the least royally fucked up city in Skyrim by a large margin. It's also the only hold where the leader recognizes how god damned childish the Stormcloaks' stated reason for the Civil War is and rightfully hates the war itself rather than an individual side.

5. Talos, God or just a great guy? Doesn't matter.
Either way the Divines of Skyrim don't really demand anything of their followers, unlike the Daedra. So keeping quiet about how Talos is your imaginary BFF (like seemingly all of the Empire's forces native to Skyrim are doing) is better than killing each other over the incompetent Thalmor investigators who are only able to kill people who shout at them that Talos is their BFF.

6. Windhelm is THE shit-hole. Made all the worse by its Jarl, Ulfric. The Jarls on the Stormcloak side are terrible people, corrupt and/or useless. Ulfric being the same way would take high-king position by force and ruin the rest of Skyrim.
On the other side of the map, the Jarls on the Imperial side are inexperienced or stupid, which a proper High King would be able to fix.
And in the middle, with no side in the war, Whiterun has the only fully competent Jarl.

7. The game started us all biased against the Imperials. But through experiencing the full extent of Skyrim's people it made me grow to detest the Stormcloaks so greatly that I can't think of a real reason to pick their side.
In fact, for the almost beheading of my character, I blame the Stormcloaks. For the Stormcloaks destroyed the stability of Skyrim to the point where this shit happens.