The moral behind Skyrim's two factions

[xDarc]

So you can't finish the game without picking a side then? You can't just kill everyone from both sides?

 

[Outcast107]

snip

I ask this and I seen you ask this in a lot of threads. To bad it seem no one has a answer for this (Or skip over this.) Anyways I agree a lot. How the hell can the Empire rise again when they lost so much and letting the Thalmor pretty much do whatever it wants.

 

[magma]

So you can't finish the game without picking a side then? You can't just kill everyone from both sides?

You can finish the game but unless you pick a side certain NPCs remain in god-mode, so the Thalmor win and you kill no-one of interest if you stay out of it. A Dragonborn main quest works around the Civil War quest as long as you have completed OR ignored the Civil War (the quest is known to break if you have started the Civil War but have not finished it, finishing the War usually fixes it luckily).

 

[Frankster]

People supported the stormcloacks? o0

Apart from the opening scene, i honestly dont see what can compell one to join them, empire just think long term and with reason, stormcloacks are guided by their misguided passion and cant see further then the end of their axes, and from my meetings with them, dislike ulfric but respected the legion general.

And this was my first eldar scrolls game btw, but fortunately i lost sight of the rebels and bumped into the legion npc who was cool to me from the start (maybe cos my race was empire aswell?) and stuck with him. As i found out more about the legion, grew to like them and eventually took a coach to solitude to sign with them.

 

[Outcast107]

People supported the stormcloacks? o0

Apart from the opening scene, i honestly dont see what can compell one to join them, empire just think long term and with reason, stormcloacks are guided by their misguided passion and cant see further then the end of their axes, and from my meetings with them, dislike ulfric but respected the legion general.

And this was my first eldar scrolls game btw, but fortunately i lost sight of the rebels and bumped into the legion npc who was cool to me from the start (maybe cos my race was empire aswell?) and stuck with him. As i found out more about the legion, grew to like them and eventually took a coach to solitude to sign with them.

Just read mine and a few others who have posted why they support Stormcloaks. The Empire may like to think its thinking ahead, but really its dooming itself. They are letting the Thalmor do pretty much whatever they want in Skyrim and probably in the Empire as well. They are already building forts within the Skyrim Territories. So this is pretty much letting the enemy have a foothold within your lands so rooting them out is going to be harder.

 

[exp. 99]

A lot of folks seem to hate the stormcloaks here. o_o

I'm neutral in this; my main character is more concerned with just wandering about doing cool things to get involved in a civil war. From the player's perspective, though, I can definitely see why the rebellion is happening. It's all about what happened in Hammerfell, I suspect.

The Empire sold out the redguards, giving up half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor in an attempt to bid for peace, then handed them the lube and bent over by allowing them to enforce THEIR laws on imperial soil. That's a terrible idea, especially since the redguard weren't exactly consulted when their lands were signed away. So the redguard left the empire and beat the elves out of their turf, securing the ENTIRETY of Hammerfell.

The Nords were watching this, and Ulfric fears that the next time the Thalmor try to push for greater sanctions against the empire, Skyrim will get sold out to preserve the imperial way. God alone knows, its possible; the Empire has been letting the aldmeri dominion pull its teeth out one by one with rusty pliers as is.

 

[Neuromaster]

Am I the only one who was disappointed that Skyrim didn't offer an option to support/work for the Thalmor?

I mean, their outfits are *easily* more stylish than the Imperials/Stormcloaks by at least an order of magnitude.

 

[Amaror]

...

...

Did you really just imply that siding with the native people of Skyrim is comparable to joining an insane genocide causing dictator?
How about you read what you type in the future before you start throwing around words like "moron" yeah?

Doesn't the phrase "Skyrim for the Nords!" ring any bell? Doesn't the phrase "Skyrim has to take it's place in the world's politics!" ring any bell?
Replace "Nord" with "Arier" and "Skyrim" with "Germany" and you have it.
They are even called the STORMcloaks, or don't you know how Hitler's private army was called?

Spoiler

It's SA or Sturmabteilung, Sturm meaning STORM

It's seams really really obvious to me.

 

[Adamc-mh]

Well, from similar such threads, most Stormcloak supporters go with the "Imperials tried to kill me" argument, which would imply you should join the Nazis in WW2 if you get nearly executed by the USA over a misunderstanding and later pardoned. (EDIT: Since apparently a lot of people are taking objection to this part, I suggest you look up what hyperbole is, you might learn something). Beyond that, all Stormcloaks have is whining about the White-Gold Concordat, which the Empire was forced into. The Imperials don't like the Concordat and are only biding their time until they can do something about it (as much is basically spelled out for you by Tullius). But no, Ulfric wants to weaken the humans even more by fracturing their unity, which would simply be justification the Thalmor need to invade Skyrim (now weakened by civil war) and/or the Empire ("blaming" them for not stopping the Stormcloaks). In fact W-GC was designed to fracture the human nations and make them easy pickings, and Ulfric is an unwitting pawn of the Thalmor (as is evidenced by a journal you recover during Diplomatic Immunity). Honestly, there is no justification for joining the Stormcloaks other than "My character is a racist and/or moron"...

I've got a justification-You get Bear Armour.Bear.Armour.

 

[Fwee]

Well the Imperials were going to cut my head off just for starting to play the game, so I kind-of assumed they were the bad guys. Plus, the Stormcloak that helped me escape invited me to his mom's (or sister? (or girlfriend?) or cousin?) house for dinner and a chat. The Imperials were too busy running around and panicking.
I've only had one three-hour long session with the game so far, but I look forward to making the big decision about who I'm siding with. Maybe after I play for about 50 hours...

 

[Frankster]

Just read mine and a few others who have posted why they support Stormcloaks. The Empire may like to think its thinking ahead, but really its dooming itself. They are letting the Thalmor do pretty much whatever they want in Skyrim and probably in the Empire as well. They are already building forts within the Skyrim Territories. So this is pretty much letting the enemy have a foothold within your lands so rooting them out is going to be harder.

Oh i do love to comically exagerate, but it is my undoing. Very well, a more coherent and detailed argument into why i support empire and honestly can't see anything to support in the stormcloaks.

I do agree that letting the Thalmor have its way inside empire lands is more poisonous then even the empire realizes (being allowed to hunt down the blades, establishing connections within empire lands, etc) but it was the price of peace and not like the empire leaders dont realize this either, talking to Tulius after vainquishing the stormcloacks makes it clear that the peace is temporary, and they expect hostilities with the Thalmor to resume soon. The empire aint fools, they know they will be fighting the Thalmor soon.

Now contrast this to a stormcloak victory which is same scenario in that a war with the Thalmor will happen, only with a fractured empire having lost the county of skyrim aswell as as losing its armies and leaders there (and losing tulius would be quite a blow.
So now you got a split humanity that even if they work their differences (can you honestly see ulfric working together with anyone? When forced to work with the enemy against Alduin, the great bringer of the end times, Tulius is quick to put aside his differences for the common good, Ulfric acts selfish and power mad even then), and gave the Thalmor more favorable conditions then if it had been an empire win.

Fact of the matter is, if you really want to oppose the Thalmor, empires the way to go. Either way they are hoping for the hostilities to continue but reading their communiques at the embassy establishes not only is ulfric a tool that has been manipulated by them from the start, but its likely that the entire stormcloak rebellion is nothing but a thalmor plot, who saw the ambition in ulfric long ago when he was their prisoner, recognized his possible importance and fed his arrogance, and were delighted no end when he led the rebellion to further weaken their future conquests.

The only possible positive outcome i can see from a stormcloak win is they would hunt down or expel all thalmor from skyrim. Little consolation, besides that being a clear cassus belli to the diplomatically suave thalmor who could use this as an opportunity to legally invade skyrim and force the empire into a diplomatically perillous position, or just go on ahead and take on the weakened empire. Either way, humans lose.

 

[teebeeohh]

Empire because Ulfric reminds me of David Cameron, in that he is a dick nobody but the morons surrounding him like. He also want's to leave a joint endeavor that has been largely good for his country till now. And because the Empire seems to be the lesser of two evils (between itself and the Dominion) because it seems to be less racist.
And while i don't think Hammerfall will rejoin the Empire anytime soon i guess they would join imperial troops in a war against the Aldmer because they hate those guys more than they dislike the empire.

 

[mental_looney]

I'm not a Nord so the whole Skyrim for the Nords is lost on my character, who currently just likes to go horseback riding and help people out.

Probably going to end up picking which ever one will help the most people in theory seeing as my character is trying to be good to make up for killing her 3 husbands as she got bored with them...

 

[Double A]

At first I was going to choose the Imperials because stability, but then I read that the Aldmeri Dominion were persecuting the worshipers of Talos legally, and that Skyrim was rebelling against the Empire to worship Talos.

It's time to kick some elven ass in the name of the most badass man who has ever lived.

 

[Outcast107]

snip

Ah but that's what the Stormcloaks are going to do once they win. They would expel all Thalmor and Empire agents and united as one. Plus the Nords are a warrior race. If you don't prove your worth to them then they won't view you as important enough. Really isn't fair, but they are trying to win a war. Not try to please everyone by helping those who refuse to help them in return.

Plus the Empire gave up their allies to protect themselves. If they kept fighting like the Redguard they could have easily avoid this mess. They would still have Hammerfell and Skyrim behind their backs fighting the Thalmor.

Also I doubt the Thalmor will attack Empire so soon. They will focus on the big threat which is Skyrim. Though to do that they have to attack with a large force to gain complete control. To do that, they will have to weaken their hold on both their homeland (There a rebellion going on) and their hold on Empire. Which will give the Empire time to attack.

I don't doubt the Empire can fend off the Thalmor if they win, but it going to be more bloody then the last war and a lot harder since they already weaken by the treaty and the civil war. As well as having thalmor forts within their lands.

 

[Frankster]

snip

Ah but that's what the Stormcloaks are going to do once they win. They would expel all Thalmor and Empire agents and united as one. Plus the Nords are a warrior race. If you don't prove your worth to them then they won't view you as important enough. Really isn't fair, but they are trying to win a war. Not try to please everyone by helping those who refuse to help them in return.

Plus the Empire gave up their allies to protect themselves. If they kept fighting like the Redguard they could have easily avoid this mess. They would still have Hammerfell and Skyrim behind their backs fighting the Thalmor.

Also I doubt the Thalmor will attack Empire so soon. They will focus on the big threat which is Skyrim. Though to do that they have to attack with a large force to gain complete control. To do that, they will have to weaken their hold on both their homeland (There a rebellion going on) and their hold on Empire. Which will give the Empire time to attack.

I don't doubt the Empire can fend off the Thalmor if they win, but it going to be more bloody then the last war and a lot harder since they already weaken by the treaty and the civil war. As well as having thalmor forts within their lands.

I guess I simply just dont believe skyrim can stand by itself, warrior race or not, i can only see them as being a weakened fledgeling state whose independence and boasting will only be short term once the Thalmor come knocking. But this is more from my interpretation of the games events and characters, not being familiar with ES lore (this is the first ES game to have won me over) im unaware as to the Thalmors actual capabilities beyond what we were shown in skyrim, in which they seemed to me like predators biding their time.
And even if it could stand, again i simply dont think Ulfrics the right man for it.

But I suppose if one were to truly believe in the strength of an independent skyrim, one would find the stormcloak ideal more attractive (discounting their leader, the whole ideal of strength and independence is a powerful one). And I, as a good imperial born citizen rather then a rowdy nord, find the idea of a united human empire far more attractive then that of several mighty independent kingdoms and the norse ideals don't really ring with me (so i dont have that big of a problem with the concordat in that i view it as a necessary sacrifice, this would be cowardly for the nords though)

Either way, its cool that a games factions are developped enough to not be a case of black and white and get us to debate their morality like this

As for the thalmor forts, hopefully they will be as fun as storming stormcloak (empire in your case) forts > Me loves big setpiece battles. Im hoping next ES game will focus on the human/thalmor conflict now.

 

[SextusMaximus]

Technically an imperial, but I hate imperials and kill them at every opportunity. I'll gladly slaughter a town's guard though, so them. (Went stormclk last playthrough)