The most cliche of cliches

[Agema]

Meh, that won't stop me lol.

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

As an even better idea, stop wasting time thinking in terms of alpha, beta, etc. personalities anyway.

It's kind of a trashily simplistic concept derived from animal social behaviour that charlatans and the peanut gallery have latched onto and expanded with pseudoscience. Humans aren't dogs or horses, and we can't be so easily boiled down into a small handful of alleged identifying behaviours. Bear in mind even more complex popular analyses such as Myers-Briggs have low validity and reliability.

These things are popular because they allow us to label ourselves and others and create some illusion of understanding the world around us. But in reality, they are poor ways of examining human interaction more likely to breed bias and prejudice than understanding.

 

[bluegate]

Meh, that won't stop me lol.

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

As an even better idea, stop wasting time thinking in terms of alpha, beta, etc. personalities anyway.

It's kind of a trashily simplistic concept derived from animal social behaviour that charlatans and the peanut gallery have latched onto and expanded with pseudoscience. Humans aren't dogs or horses, and we can't be so easily boiled down into a small handful of alleged identifying behaviours. Bear in mind even more complex popular analyses such as Myers-Briggs have low validity and reliability.

These things are popular because they allow us to label ourselves and others and create some illusion of understanding the world around us. But in reality, they are poor ways of examining human interaction more likely to breed bias and prejudice than understanding.

Cheers 🥂... or maybe "Cheers 🍻"...

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

I would, if pictures I found of it on Google didn't look so generic 🤷‍♂️

Japanese art and animation need an injection of originality, the majority of people are stuck in the same boring art style, it's as if characters are designed by programs rather than artists. You could probably create a Mii character creator-esque program for animu characters, their designs and poses and be able to match 95% of the art found in these kinds of games.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

It's kind of a trashily simplistic concept derived from animal social behaviour that charlatans and the peanut gallery have latched onto and expanded with pseudoscience. Humans aren't dogs or horses, and we can't be so easily boiled down into a small handful of alleged identifying behaviours. Bear in mind even more complex popular analyses such as Myers-Briggs have low validity and reliability.

Worse than that, its derived from animal behaviour that doesn't actually exist. The dude who originally came up with the idea of 'alpha males' realised he'd got things completely wrong after continued study of wolves and has spent the rest of his career trying to get people to stop using his own outdated research

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Meh, that won't stop me lol.

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

As an even better idea, stop wasting time thinking in terms of alpha, beta, etc. personalities anyway.

It's kind of a trashily simplistic concept derived from animal social behaviour that charlatans and the peanut gallery have latched onto and expanded with pseudoscience. Humans aren't dogs or horses, and we can't be so easily boiled down into a small handful of alleged identifying behaviours. Bear in mind even more complex popular analyses such as Myers-Briggs have low validity and reliability.

These things are popular because they allow us to label ourselves and others and create some illusion of understanding the world around us. But in reality, they are poor ways of examining human interaction more likely to breed bias and prejudice than understanding.

The mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain ideas it doesn't believe in.

I don't tend to use such terminology personally but if someone else uses it I can engage in their terms without simultaneously embracing them.

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

It's pointless trying to explain it to them. They just look at VN's as being nothing more than something to masturbate to for "lonely virgin beta males".

Meh, that won't stop me lol.

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

Hmm yeah dunno about that. A middle aged man gushing about his stamp collection or train set is fine and everything, but it doesn't exactly make you think 'what a dominant stud' etc either.

Agree to disagree then. I have a good ole time watching videos of middle aged men react like happy 12 year old while opening old magic the gathering card packs, hoping they'll get rare cards. I enjoy seeing people deeply invested in things, what the thing is in particular and how noteworthy "society" deems it is irrelevant.

Meh, that won't stop me lol.

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

As an even better idea, stop wasting time thinking in terms of alpha, beta, etc. personalities anyway.

It's kind of a trashily simplistic concept derived from animal social behaviour that charlatans and the peanut gallery have latched onto and expanded with pseudoscience. Humans aren't dogs or horses, and we can't be so easily boiled down into a small handful of alleged identifying behaviours. Bear in mind even more complex popular analyses such as Myers-Briggs have low validity and reliability.

These things are popular because they allow us to label ourselves and others and create some illusion of understanding the world around us. But in reality, they are poor ways of examining human interaction more likely to breed bias and prejudice than understanding.

Cheers 🥂... or maybe "Cheers 🍻"...

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

I would, if pictures I found of it on Google didn't look so generic 🤷‍♂️

Japanese art and animation need an injection of originality, the majority of people are stuck in the same boring art style, it's as if characters are designed by programs rather than artists. You could probably create a Mii character creator-esque program for animu characters, their designs and poses and be able to match 95% of the art found in these kinds of games.

This is a judging a book by its cover type deal. It's not generic, the art style is just modern anime art style. VNs are mainly about the story anyhow, the CGs are there to catch your attention but they shouldn't be what you judge the VN on unless it's a nukige.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

This is a judging a book by its cover type deal. It's not generic, the art style is just modern anime art style. VNs are mainly about the story anyhow, the CGs are there to catch your attention but they shouldn't be what you judge the VN on unless it's a nukige.

I think my problem with people talking about VN's that don't actually read VN's talk about them is that they don't know the difference between a basic romantic VN, a nukige, or a dating sim. Yet they feel that they are perfectly qualified and right to pass judgment on all of them in one group and the people that read them.

 

[Squilookle]

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

It's pointless trying to explain it to them. They just look at VN's as being nothing more than something to masturbate to for "lonely virgin beta males".

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

Hmm yeah dunno about that. A middle aged man gushing about his stamp collection or train set is fine and everything, but it doesn't exactly make you think 'what a dominant stud' etc either.

Agree to disagree then. I have a good ole time watching videos of middle aged men react like happy 12 year old while opening old magic the gathering card packs, hoping they'll get rare cards. I enjoy seeing people deeply invested in things, what the thing is in particular and how noteworthy "society" deems it is irrelevant.

Like I said- there's nothing wrong with it. But you don't watch those videos and think about boning those guys much either, do you?

Agema and Palindromemordnilap are right- the whole Alpha concept is pretty garbage anyway- but the term itself refers to males that are confident, decisive, sexually active and attractive etc in such a way that females would instinctively see them as more fuckable than the average dude. It's specifically a partnering thing- mostly if not entirely sexual. So advocating something you seem worthwhile might be endearing, and even attractive. But it's only "Alpha" if that thing doesn't interfere with those other attributes. So being into something social and adrenaline fuelled such as, say, rock-climbing or skydiving would count as Alpha, whereas Trainspotting or Birdwatching are reclusive pursuits that would appear to be "Beta"

I'm not saying it's a good system or anything- just explaining the way it operates.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

It's pointless trying to explain it to them. They just look at VN's as being nothing more than something to masturbate to for "lonely virgin beta males".

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

Hmm yeah dunno about that. A middle aged man gushing about his stamp collection or train set is fine and everything, but it doesn't exactly make you think 'what a dominant stud' etc either.

Agree to disagree then. I have a good ole time watching videos of middle aged men react like happy 12 year old while opening old magic the gathering card packs, hoping they'll get rare cards. I enjoy seeing people deeply invested in things, what the thing is in particular and how noteworthy "society" deems it is irrelevant.

Like I said- there's nothing wrong with it. But you don't watch those videos and think about boning those guys much either, do you?

Agema and Palindromemordnilap are right- the whole Alpha concept is pretty garbage anyway- but the term itself refers to males that are confident, decisive, sexually active and attractive etc in such a way that females would instinctively see them as more fuckable than the average dude. It's specifically a partnering thing- mostly if not entirely sexual. So advocating something you seem worthwhile might be endearing, and even attractive. But it's only "Alpha" if that thing doesn't interfere with those other attributes. So being into something social and adrenaline fuelled such as, say, rock-climbing or skydiving would count as Alpha, whereas Trainspotting or Birdwatching are reclusive pursuits that would appear to be "Beta"

I'm not saying it's a good system or anything- just explaining the way it operates.

Well, I have never found a guy I thought of boning, so I wouldn't take that to mean much.

If it was someone I'd be even slightly interested in boning in a vacuum though, it'd definitely be a thing in their favor.



I think it is not what you're into but how you are into it that makes the difference. If you're into skydiving because that's just your idea of something that girls like and you do it out of insecurity so you'll have more things ticked off in your "ideal male" checklist, by which you'd be mathematically more likely to have sex, that is very very not alpha. Similarly, if you engage in your more traditionally calm hobbies with confidence and no shame and can describe why they are worthwhile with passion to somebody, that's gonna be attractive, no matter what the pursuit is.


It's about your attitude with the thing and you yourself, not what the thing is. If Brad Pitt suddenly took up embroidery he wouldn't cease being someone women want to bang.

 

[Squilookle]

Well you went for a Japanese harem VN for originality, that's your problem right there.

Aye, can't be surprised to find shit when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Actually there's tons of originality in most harem VNs, there's just also a crapton of samey ones. Try Fruit of Grisaia and you'll see what I mean.

It's pointless trying to explain it to them. They just look at VN's as being nothing more than something to masturbate to for "lonely virgin beta males".

I don't think you can be a beta male for advocating for something you deem worthwhile, in any case. Shying away from doing so, sure, that'd be a beta move.

Hmm yeah dunno about that. A middle aged man gushing about his stamp collection or train set is fine and everything, but it doesn't exactly make you think 'what a dominant stud' etc either.

Agree to disagree then. I have a good ole time watching videos of middle aged men react like happy 12 year old while opening old magic the gathering card packs, hoping they'll get rare cards. I enjoy seeing people deeply invested in things, what the thing is in particular and how noteworthy "society" deems it is irrelevant.

Like I said- there's nothing wrong with it. But you don't watch those videos and think about boning those guys much either, do you?

Agema and Palindromemordnilap are right- the whole Alpha concept is pretty garbage anyway- but the term itself refers to males that are confident, decisive, sexually active and attractive etc in such a way that females would instinctively see them as more fuckable than the average dude. It's specifically a partnering thing- mostly if not entirely sexual. So advocating something you seem worthwhile might be endearing, and even attractive. But it's only "Alpha" if that thing doesn't interfere with those other attributes. So being into something social and adrenaline fuelled such as, say, rock-climbing or skydiving would count as Alpha, whereas Trainspotting or Birdwatching are reclusive pursuits that would appear to be "Beta"

I'm not saying it's a good system or anything- just explaining the way it operates.

Well, I have never found a guy I thought of boning, so I wouldn't take that to mean much.

If it was someone I'd be even slightly interested in boning in a vacuum though, it'd definitely be a thing in their favor.



I think it is not what you're into but how you are into it that makes the difference. If you're into skydiving because that's just your idea of something that girls like and you do it out of insecurity so you'll have more things ticked off in your "ideal male" checklist, by which you'd be mathematically more likely to have sex, that is very very not alpha. Similarly, if you engage in your more traditionally calm hobbies with confidence and no shame and can describe why they are worthwhile with passion to somebody, that's gonna be attractive, no matter what the pursuit is.


It's about your attitude with the thing and you yourself, not what the thing is. If Brad Pitt suddenly took up embroidery he wouldn't cease being someone women want to bang.

Of course Brad Pitt wouldn't be less bangable if he took up embroidery. He's got one of those classically handsome 10/10 faces, is rich, and is a movie star. At that point he can pretty much do whatever hobby he wants.

And yeah- you're right in that confidently following your niche passion is attractive, to a niche crowd. But the whole Alpha thing assumes you don't know what the girls' niche interests are, and instead are seen in a way that is as generically attractive as possible, in ways that assert/suggest masculinity and testosterone- appealing to the opposite sex on a basic instinct level.

Again- I'm not saying it's good or anything. In fact pursuing your hobbies without care for what others think is a FAR healthier way of finding someone than adjusting yourself to be Alpha. But to define 'Alpha' as merely 'advocating what you see as worthwhile' is an incorrect definition, because it's reasonably well established what is Alpha and what is not. A guy getting tribal tattoos (even if they look ridiculous to you and I) is technically Alpha because it's a show of pain endurance, strength, and confidence in his own appearance. Another guy talking about the My Little Pony pillow he just bought is not Alpha, because, well... you know.

Curiously, shying away from something you like isn't technically Beta either. A man who loves embroidery may choose to hide that passion when he's out on the town to appear more Alpha (you see why I'm not saying the whole Alpha thing is good), but if girls in a nightclub, out to hook up with the Alpha-est guy they can get (which yes, is very much a real thing and pretty much sustains Alpha culture itself for better or worse) find out the guy likes embroidery and was trying to hide it- they'll be more likely to dismiss him not so much because he suppressed it, but because of the nature of the thing in the first place. Plus there are things we like when we're young (like say, BMX bikes and rock band T-shirts) that we eventually abandon in order to appear more attractive. This isn't really a bad thing, more just maturing and aging gracefully. A man who reaches 65 and still plays with Duplo isn't going to get any Alpha points, because he's showing an unwillingness to leave his childhood behind.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Plus, while not made explicit in the films (at least I don't think it is), in the book a big factor was Merry stabbing the Witch-King with a blade designed for fighting Wights from the Barrowdowns way back in Fellowship. Merry gips him with the magic sword and Eowyn basically finishes him off.

Yeah, LotR magic is an absolute bastard about precise wording, and our hero's attacked it from two angles at the same time. And the backlash nearly killed them both anyway.

Far as a cliche that should die in a fire, can we just stop having bad guys prove how extra bad they are by assaulting/raping random women to motivate the male heroes before carting the women off into the background and focusing solely on the dudes? That was played out twenty years ago when I was reading fantasy novels. Have the villain eat a puppy or set fire to an orphan, that would at least be novel.

Lastly, a fandom trope: not every dark and broody anti-hero is like Batman. Most of them aren't. Case in point,[footnote]this has been stuck in my craw for months[/footnote] the Goblin Slayer. GS is not "like Batman". If he were a good Batman, he would've bothered to bring extra anti-toxins to the goblin den full of poison-using goblins, thus saving Mage gal's life. If he were angsty Batman, he'd of hit her up with some fantasy morphine so she could die painlessly with people around. Under no circumstances would Goblin Batman have mercy-killed her. If you must compare GS to a mainstream superhero, the one you're looking for is Frank "The Punisher" Castle. Violent, obsessed, damn good at his job, existing in a world with shit that far exceeds his weight class, and cares way more about murder hobo-ing than any sort of hero shit.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Plus, while not made explicit in the films (at least I don't think it is), in the book a big factor was Merry stabbing the Witch-King with a blade designed for fighting Wights from the Barrowdowns way back in Fellowship. Merry gips him with the magic sword and Eowyn basically finishes him off.

Yeah, LotR magic is an absolute bastard about precise wording, and our hero's attacked it from two angles at the same time. And the backlash nearly killed them both anyway.

Far as a cliche that should die in a fire, can we just stop having bad guys prove how extra bad they are by assaulting/raping random women to motivate the male heroes before carting the women off into the background and focusing solely on the dudes? That was played out twenty years ago when I was reading fantasy novels. Have the villain eat a puppy or set fire to an orphan, that would at least be novel.

Lastly, a fandom trope: not every dark and broody anti-hero is like Batman. Most of them aren't. Case in point,[footnote]this has been stuck in my craw for months[/footnote] the Goblin Slayer. GS is not "like Batman". If he were a good Batman, he would've bothered to bring extra anti-toxins to the goblin den full of poison-using goblins, thus saving Mage gal's life. If he were angsty Batman, he'd of hit her up with some fantasy morphine so she could die painlessly with people around. Under no circumstances would Goblin Batman have mercy-killed her. If you must compare GS to a mainstream superhero, the one you're looking for is Frank "The Punisher" Castle. Violent, obsessed, damn good at his job, existing in a world with shit that far exceeds his weight class, and cares way more about murder hobo-ing than any sort of hero shit.

The most apt parallel to Orcbolg I've seen is definitely not Batman. It's the Doom marine. He just hates goblins with a passion and lives to kill em.