The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian

[Karadalis]

In other words you don't want to rebut any of the many many MANY well reasoned, concise, and lengthy criticisms leveled against her work, which have nothing to do with her being a woman or are sexist in the least.

If you've ever read my response before, you know I have done just that.

Most of the "well reasoned criticisms" against her amount to "I am not aware of feminist theory - therefore it does not exist and she's wrong."

A person being ignorant of the lens through which the material is being viewed does not make her wrong.

A person having the opinion that no art should be viewed through a lens (like feminism or many other philosophical lenses) does not mean that the person is using the technique incorrectly.

If someone disagrees with the basic tenants of Feminism (particularly second wave feminism), then fine. Anita did not invent feminism, second wave or otherwise.

Wow... really? Even thought a good portion of these people are feminists themselves?

You truly believe that everyone who brings forth all the points against her series only does so because "they dont get feminism"? Even thought many of these people have brought forth undeniable FACTS that picture her in a very very bad light and heavily question her motives?

Her method of research is flawed at best and nonexistant at worst, the money she got obviously did not went into the production of the videos wich begs the question why she started a kickstarter in the first place, she missed her own deadlines even thought she got overwhelmingly more money then her initial goal was, she manipulated the seedy underbelly of the internet in lashing out against her so that she could point to those comments and reinforce her own paranoid worldviews. It was prooven that a) she doesnt even use material she recorded herself wich again begs the question where all the money went and why it takes so long to produce these videos and b) she deletes and moderates every single comment that in the slightest questions her methods even if it was brought forth in a calm and factual manner, since you know.. these posts arent the negativity she needs to reinforce her paranoid views of the evil patriarchy surpressing women.

This woman is not doing feminism any favours, this woman hides under the guise of feminism to further her own career and earn money.

So it stands to debate if she actually is a feminist to begin with to wich i say: nay.. she isnt. Feminists do alot more then sit infront of a camera/audience and read of stuff from wikipedia and quotes from TV tropes.

Shes manipulative and very smart in how to rally support for herselfe and i wouldnt be surprised in the slightest should she in the future try to run for a political office in one way or form.

 

[AstaresPanda]

Oh look, Bob defending Anita. Oh look, Bob liking Anita's work. Oh look, Bob is talking about computer games.

Just from the sensationalist title alone, I knew how this article was going to turn out. It's a little hard to take any of this seriously when you're being the white knight.

made me lol yeh your right not the first time he white knighted it, careful with that word comments have been vanished for calling him *whispers* a white kngiht on this subject.

In other words you don't want to rebut any of the many many MANY well reasoned, concise, and lengthy criticisms leveled against her work, which have nothing to do with her being a woman or are sexist in the least.

If you've ever read my response before, you know I have done just that.

Most of the "well reasoned criticisms" against her amount to "I am not aware of feminist theory - therefore it does not exist and she's wrong."

A person being ignorant of the lens through which the material is being viewed does not make her wrong.

A person having the opinion that no art should be viewed through a lens (like feminism or many other philosophical lenses) does not mean that the person is using the technique incorrectly.

If someone disagrees with the basic tenants of Feminism (particularly second wave feminism), then fine. Anita did not invent feminism, second wave or otherwise.

There is a difference between viewing something through the lens of a specific ideology and cherry picking data points to give evidence to a presupposition. These works begin with a presupposition and then pick and chose very specific examples, often devoid of context, in order to support it. This is the same sort of argumentation style that evolution deniers, flat earthers and climate change skeptics love to use. It's a confirmation Bias.

So no, I have no problem with the "Feminist lens" with which she chooses to examine a particular subject matter. My problem is with the fact that she clearly did very little research, argues using logical fallacies and just plain doesn't seem to care about giving the work the good, thorough examination it deserves.

Frankly, people praising her work disgusts me in the same way people praising Twilight as a well written story: There's nothing wrong with the concept, it's just everything about the execution thats terrible. Come on, I'm sure there are much better, more insightful women out there who would give this subject a MUCH better examination then her. Why are you idolizing Meyer when Shelley exists?

and you sir have hit the nail on the head.

 

[Draconalis]

Bob, I'd really just like to know what the point of this article was.

You seem to bring forward zero new information on a topic/person almost everyone knows plenty about. You didn't really even seem to present any arguments for one side or another here. Just "Hey, this one thing happened with that lady so many of you are mad at!".

You and me both, as I said earlier, this entire article offered nothing but what happened in a night.

I don't feel it was worth reading.

 

[startrekmike]

My issue with Sarkeesian is really simple, I watched her entire channel once the whole kickstarter debacle started in a effort to understand her point of view and found that her channel was really just a soapbox for poorly thought out complaints against specific media that she personally did not like.

Some of her overall points are solid, sadly, she packages them so deeply in purposely inflammatory rhetoric that she actually manages to undermine her own points more often than not.

Keep in mind, I am looking at the entire body of her youtube channel, not just the 'Tropes vs women' content.

I don't dislike her as a person, I just don't think she is the right person for the job she has chosen for herself, I am sure there are plenty of women who are actually in the gaming industry who could give more informed, educated and valid points for us all to discuss.

On a side note, this video seems like it was made specifically to piggyback on Bob's most recent content, I am starting to notice some very obvious trends popping up in his videos and I am sad to see them going this way.

 

[1337mokro]

The most dangerous woman talking about videogames would be a better title. I wouldn't call Moviebob the most dangerous person in movies either seeing as he doesn't make movies but talk about movies other people made.

You have to actually be active in the industry and doing some kind of dangerous revolutionary thing to be a danger to it.

The woman that poisoned the well for any proper discussion about female portrayal in videogames by being dishonest, plagiarism and quite honestly not up to the task of actually discussing the subject with any level of required intelligence. Any time I want to actually discuss anything about this subject now I first have to fend of the idiot man-children and airhead feminists before I can actually get to the core of the discussion. No because of one anti-sex feminist we are stuck in a bogged down discussion where any kind of sexualization is somehow inherently wrong. Regardless of volition, intent or method of display.

A woman engaging in BDSM as the sub? Horrible portrayal of the patriarchy dominating women and a glorification of submissiveness. A woman engaging in BDSM as the dom? A woman portrayed in role that makes her appear strong but only highlights how she simply takes over male qualities to become strong. She is nothing but an imposter.

These feminists are a waste of our collective time because whilst they might have graduated their own course in college they only learned how to parrot each other and really never learned how to dig behind the fancy quotes they keep parroting or take a step back and actually think about what they said. Not to mention that under the guise of creating "safe" environments for discussion the first thing they do is filter any dissenting opinions out. After all we all know that the best way to stimulate discussion is to closely monitor and withhold comments that you find fault in.

I'd much rather have seen the people behind Extra Credits get the money so they could do an series on this subject. At least with them we are given more than just a look at a trope counter going up. We'd actually have delved behind why these tropes are in use or why certain emotions are far easier to elicit with different genders. All this is now is a regurgitation of the brand of sexless feminism she paragons where a woman in any way engaging in any kind of possible sexual or sexualizable action is wrong and the portrayal of it is an inherent sexist act.

Right now though the plus side of this whole thing is that I can have a good laugh at watching the person who wanted to make a video highlighting the damsel in distress trope becoming the biggest damsel in distress of them all and make a big fat juicy profit of being one.

White Knight Bob to the rescue!

Irony. It´s absolutely priceless!

 

[QuantumWalker]

In other words you don't want to rebut any of the many many MANY well reasoned, concise, and lengthy criticisms leveled against her work, which have nothing to do with her being a woman or are sexist in the least.

If you've ever read my response before, you know I have done just that.

Most of the "well reasoned criticisms" against her amount to "I am not aware of feminist theory - therefore it does not exist and she's wrong."

A person being ignorant of the lens through which the material is being viewed does not make her wrong.

A person having the opinion that no art should be viewed through a lens (like feminism or many other philosophical lenses) does not mean that the person is using the technique incorrectly.

If someone disagrees with the basic tenants of Feminism (particularly second wave feminism), then fine. Anita did not invent feminism, second wave or otherwise.

Their are two observations I want to make about your post.
1) I agree with your sentiment that ignorance of a particular lens does not invalidate the opinions of someone using it. Likewise, not agreeing with someone's world view does not make them wrong or someone else right.

2) Anita has gone on record stating that she seeks to bring feminism down from "academic head spaces" in order to broaden it's exposure among people from her generation. In doing so she has removed the complex language and rhetoric necessary to convey these ideas intelligently to her audience. Their is nothing wrong with trying to break down more complex ideas for less informed audiences, but Anita has failed to actually explain what some of the terms she uses means in relation to her project. If she wants to make this series as a school curriculum and teaching aid, how does not explaining terms and key concepts help further that ideal?

 

[Kyogissun]

Someone needs to show Bob her polarizing Destructoid article that quite clearly showed that she had no idea what the fuck she is doing and has very little journalistic integrity.

She called Zia, one of the most IMPORTANT characters in Bastion, a TOKEN FEMALE CHARACTER. SHE COULD NOT EVEN REMEMBER THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTER'S NAME. She didn't bother to ACCURATELY describe the character, she just couldn't remember her name and called her 'The Female' and ANYONE who has ACTUALLY played the game knows how EXTREMELY important she is to the story and her major influence on it at a point in the game!

I'm sorry but she can just fuck right off. Other people have stated it, she fails to back up her statement with evidence, a LOT of her statements are nothing but personal opinion and she is NOTORIOUS for cherry picking responses to her that make her look the best, she fails to respond to any LEGITIMATE rebuttals (Someone already posted the Investig8ive Journalism videos), she's been known to take down videos with false info and fail explain it...

This community and industry DESERVES a breaking down of gender barriers and other inequality bullshit but NOT from this hack of a 'journalist'. And just KNOWING that there are others out there who will NEVER get the attention for their concepts and ideas that they TRULY deserve while she gets to scream from the mountain tops and a bunch of people just sit there and nod in agreement and act like she's a special snowflake really just infuriates me.

I wish you people would stop talking about Anita so those more deserving of this recognition and respect would fucking GET WHAT THEY DESERVE ALREADY. I'm not going to waste my time linking it and I'll just make the basic statement that there are at least 2-4 responses BESIDES Investig8ive Journalism's video doing REALLY good rebuttals to Anita's 'presentations', pointing out her pros, cons and their personal feelings about the topic.

tl;dr I hate that people behave the way they do when it comes to gaming, but Anita has too many problems to make her qualified for correcting others on their ill behavior being guilty of so much herself.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Care to give me specific arguments, or do you want me to rant against the various arguments I have seen that stick out in my mind the most?

Whatever stuck out to you, lay it on us, bro! We can take it!

...right everybody?

......

Okay, well... Here we go!

"Saying sexism in games doesn't cause people to be sexist like violent games doesn't cause people to kill others!" That is a stupid comparison. Sexism is not the same as violence. Sexism is an idea, violence is an action.

"She presents no sources!" For what? What does she have to present sources for?

"She censors everyone!" No she doesn't, that is just asinine.

"She is exploiting her victim hood!" So, she should just shut up about receiving loads of rape and death threats?

"She takes everything out of context and lies all the time!" Any specific examples?

"She refuses to debate the subject!" Everyone is not owed a response.

"BWAAA, she is a manipulative ***** that tricked everyone into giving her money!" And what do you base this on, then? A 4chan thread? Oh me oh my, what fantastic evidence. This doesn't even address her points, anyway.

"She said she doesn't identify as a gamer in this one video!" I don't always identify as a gamer either. Doesn't mean I don't like games.

"She says games are inherently sexist!" No, she never actually said that.

"She is trying to censor creators!" So... Criticism is censorship, now?

"She doesn't present any solutions!" Why should she? She is a critic, her job is to point out the flaws. Or do you get upset when moviebob doesn't explain how to fix movies in his reviews?

"Damsel in Distress trope doesn't harm people because people want to protect others in real life, which somehow means it isn't sexist!" You do know that real life isn't fiction, right? And how does this disprove that the DiD trope has a harmful effect on how people view women?

"Damsel in Distress trope isn't sexist because it is an easy motivation that people connect with!" How does this even counter anything? It is a total non-sequiter. Yes, it is an easy, cheap way to create tension and a goal. How does that not make it harmful again?

"She hates sex!" No, she doesn't. Overuse of objectification leads to damaging stereotypes of women.

"She should use all her money to effect change!" Then she would just be committing fraud. The kickstarter was for the video series, so that is what the money went towards.

There are probably more, but that is what stood out to me from trawling through half this thread again. If you have any specific points you want me to address, feel free to send them my way.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

As long as games don't end up like TV I don't mind, if they do then books are the last bastion.

Last bastion of what, exactly?

Entertainment aimed at specific groups, rather than mass appeal sanitised bullshit that nobody likes.

Well, too late for that bub.

Anita gets her way, then things like demographics or intended audience go out the window, and we get sanitized slop desperate not to offend anyone because a game dared make a feminist annoyed.

Wouldn't the problem then be the fact that the makers of games and such can't even write a good game without being sexist? Pretty sure she wants less sexism not less 'good' games.

Alright, I'll bite: name one game that's sexist, and I'll tell you why it's not.

Alternatively, name one game that would be in line with Anita's tastes and I'll tell you why it'll suck.

Please?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

cherry picking data points to give evidence to a presupposition.

This is an often quoted complaint... that means nothing.

If you know anything at all about academic work - particularly in the field of the Humanities (such as English and Women's Studies) you know that there is no such thing as cheery picking in those fields. ALL academic work is based on choosing evidence to support your point in that same fashion.

Cheery picking MIGHT exist in science - but not in humanities. It has no place in this discussion.

 

[Draconalis]

All I see it butthurt little boys who don't like their toys criticised.

Her videos are informative, and interesting. She's brought serious game theory and criticism into the mainstream mindset. She's challenging a real issue (especially with ethnicity).

That's an incredibly ignorant thing to say.

I like Thunderfoot's approach to things, unbiased and logical, so I follow him.

I have never seen anything that indicated Thunderfoot is a gamer. And still he points out the flaws in her methods.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Cue all the men who who miss the point.

Yeah, she may be a fraud, but the fact that the entire community is up and arms about it just shows how ridiculous peoples's hatred of her is, not to mention the fact that everyone went out of their way to discredit her because she dared to talk about video games. All the points they bring up about her falseness and her LIIIIES just reinforce the point.

The point is, she is a women who talked about video games. Of cource everyone found "evidence" of her falseness.

 

[BreakfastMan]

I am thinking of the leaders of A Voice For Men and The Spearhead, two of the most prominent sites. Both have said absolutely awful things and both of which are generally held up as leaders in the MRA community. Warren Farrel talked about how date rape is sexy in his book, so I don't have any direct links to that, but I do have links to images of the passage where he discusses that, if you like.

As for links to horrible stuff from them... Well, those are more easy to find!

Horrible shit from The Spearhead:
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/10/14/why-you-might-want-to-think-twice-about-sending-your-daughter-to-college/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/05/30/after-25-women-are-just-wasting-time/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/09/15/how-female-suffrage-destroyed-western-civilization/

Horrible shit from A Voice For Men:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/women-dont-own-sex/
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/chanty-no-not-that-one/
http://www.avoiceformen-uk.com/2013/07/are-women-homophobic.html

While that does seem like a bunch of horrible crap to say, especially Spearhead, it is jumping the gun a bit to assume that this is what all MRAs support. I doubt Thunderf00t is crazy enough to oppose the vote for females or in favor of date rape. And all those MRAs who want to sponsor education for PoC boys or better support for male victims of domestic abuse, I can't say for sure but I don't believe sexy date rape is something they would give the thumbs up.

The terms feminist and MRA are very broad, MRA even used as an insult to detractors of feminism. Associating rape apology with MRAs is like people who bash all feminist ideology just because they disagree with Sarkeesian. Which happens way too often.

I don't think it is going to far to associate rape apology with MRAs. Mainly because the rape apology comes from those who are considered the most important, greatest thinkers in the MRA. There is not self criticism like there is in feminism (see: womanism, the sex wars). The MRA is only comparable it feminism if feminism was made up of nothing but Andrea Dworkins. Hell, they aren't even helping anyone they say they want to help, as those groups who are helping to end prison rape, decrease male suicide rapes, etc. tell others not to associate them with the MRA!

 

[Draconalis]

ALL academic work is based on choosing evidence to support your point in that same fashion.

...

WHAT?!

That is a grossly false statement. Academics do not cherry pick evidence that supports its point. There is something called Peer review in the academic world to prevent people from cherry picking.

Jokes like these are made about Peer Review... because it's THAT brutal.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Who the fuck is Anita Sarkeesian and why the fuck should I give a damn?

Pretty much. Someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word "trope" doesn't deserve my attention, sorry. Yes, i'm talking about Anita.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Ahhhh! So this is why a new Sarkeesian thread popped up in the gaming section, Bob is beating the dead horse again. We've had quite the peace and quiet in terms of this topic for several weeks and I wish it had stayed that way until her next video (Whenever it gets released). Just to bring something up for this topic.

First TvT video currently has this many views.

1,662,299

Her second has this many views.

875,732

And her third has this many.

573,142

Most people are bored of her and this discussion by now, can we please just let it die already instead of prolonging its agony?

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

I've yet to see any well-written article against what she's doing. As far as I know, the only hate comes from the "little people" of the internet.

Agree with this.

I admit I'm prejudiced more towards her than against her, because I absolutely despise the vile campaign that's been levelled against her, and its perpetrators. Seriously, those guys (and unfortunately I'm assuming that it's probably mostly men) need to just disappear. The thing that sticks with me personally (on quite a selfish level) is that people might assume that those horrible, horrible people are speaking for ME. They're not.

Other than that, I saw the video that prompted the campaign, and thought that it was very good. There were parts that I disagreed with, and other parts where I actually thought she could've gone a good deal further in her arguments than she did (I thought she might've brought up the issue of marriage in terms of what she was discussing in regards to Skyrim, for example). There was nothing in it that struck me as mean-spirited or dishonest.

Glad you enjoyed the talk, MovieBob. Don't suppose anybody knows if there's a video of it anywhere?

 

[Draconalis]

She goes on and on about how sexist super mario is for example.. a game where you play an italian plumber... who eats mushrooms to grow bigger and kills turtles by stomping on them.

You know...? When you put it that way... PETA should do something to save all those poor virtual turtles...