The new fallout game, why the eltism of hate?

[ComradeJim270]

i honestly can't see the problem for fallout fans. It's like crawling for years and years across a hot desert then complaining when you're offered a pepsi instead of a coke. I'd rather a shitty Fallout 3 than nothing.

How can you complain when you're dead?
I mean, unless you can survive without food or water for over a month.

The whole analogy is flawed. You need water to live. You do not need Fallout to live.

It would be more like someone saying "Gee, my mouth's pretty dry..." and then some guy unzipping his fly and offering to piss in their mouth for $50. I'd prefer a dry mouth, wouldn't you?

 

[Lewty]

Bioware developed NWN1. Atari merely published it.
Ironically, NWN2 was developed by Obsidian Entertainment which was founded by some of the people who worked on fallout.

Ah my mistake, I kinda shot myself in the foot there, but the statement i believe still stands.
Bethesda to Fallout 3 'may not' be what Black Isle was to Fallout 1 & 2.
Basically, we'll still see if Bethesda will continue or better the Fallout legacy.

 

[SonofSeth]

This is from Fallout 3 homepage:

"Key Features:
Limitless Freedom! ? Take in the sights and sounds of the vast Capital Wasteland! See the great monuments of the United States lying in post-apocalyptic ruin! You make the choices that define you and change the world. Just keep an eye on your Rad Meter!

Experience S.P.E.C.I.A.L.! ? Vault-Tec engineers bring you the latest in human ability simulation ? the SPECIAL Character System! Utilizing new breakthroughs in points-based ability representation, SPECIAL affords unlimited customization of your character. Also included are dozens of unique skills and perks to choose from, each with a dazzling variety of effects!

Fantastic New Views! ? The wizards at Vault-Tec have done it again! No longer constrained to just one view, experience the world from 1st or 3rd person perspective. Customize your view with the touch of a button!

The Power of Choice! ? Feeling like a dastardly villain today, or a Good Samaritan? Pick a side or walk the line, as every situation can be dealt with in many different ways. Talk out your problems in a civilized fashion, or just flash your Plasma Rifle.

Blast ?Em Away With V.A.T.S.! ? Even the odds in combat with the Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System for your Pip-Boy Model 3000! V.A.T.S. allows you to pause time in combat, target specific body parts on your target, queue up attacks, and let Vault-Tec take out your aggression for you. Rain death and destruction in an all-new cinematic presentation.

Mind-Blowing Artificial Intelligence! ? At Vault-Tec, we realize that the key to reviving civilization after a global nuclear war is people. Our best minds pooled their efforts to produce an advanced version of Radiant AI, America?s First Choice in Human Interaction Simulation. Facial expressions, gestures, unique dialog, and lifelike behavior are brought together with stunning results by the latest in Vault-Tec technology.

Eye-Popping Prettiness!* ? Witness the harsh realities of nuclear fallout rendered like never before in modern super-deluxe HD graphics. From the barren Wasteland, to the danger-filled offices and metro tunnels of DC, to the hideous rotten flesh of a mutant?s face."

So, they seem to talk the talk, but can they code the... hmmm, whatever!

 

[ilves7]

This is from Fallout 3 homepage:

The Power of Choice! ? Feeling like a dastardly villain today, or a Good Samaritan? Pick a side or walk the line, as every situation can be dealt with in many different ways. Talk out your problems in a civilized fashion, or just flash your Plasma Rifle.

Mind-Blowing Artificial Intelligence! ? At Vault-Tec, we realize that the key to reviving civilization after a global nuclear war is people. Our best minds pooled their efforts to produce an advanced version of Radiant AI, America?s First Choice in Human Interaction Simulation. Facial expressions, gestures, unique dialog, and lifelike behavior are brought together with stunning results by the latest in Vault-Tec technology.

I'm slightly encouraged by the 'talk out your issues' part... although Beth has promised 'choice' and 'good and evil' before without really delivering.

The Radiant AI in Oblivion was a joke. Mostly characters ran around aimlessly and had annoyingly similar voices (what like 5 actors total) for each character... plus the 'gossip' they talked about was idiotic. I sincerely hope they improved on it since Oblivion.

 

[ComradeJim270]

I don't think Bethesda even knows how to do choice, except maybe the 'Mother Theresa vs. baby-eating' crap that Yahtzee mentioned in his Bioshock review, and that I criticize at every opportunity. Nor do they know how they know how to make a storyline that does not demand a considerable amount of linearity.

Quite frankly, I think they should hire new writers. The quality (or lack thereof) we have seen from their writers in recent times is sub-par by the standards I use FOR MYSELF, and I don't get paid to write like they do.

Yes, I just said it; I could do their job better than them.

 

[Joeshie]

My concern is that while Bethesda does make some pretty good RPGs, they are a different ballpark than what made Fallout good.

Fallout had certain strengths that made it stand out as a seminal western RPG. These strengths don't appear to be Bethesda's strengths. And while I have no doubt that Fallout 3 will sell well simply based on riding the coattails of Bethesda's previous success, I feel that the magic that made Fallout will be traded for the magic that made the Elder Scrolls games. It will be this hybrid monster that attempts to keep the spirit of Fallout, but cannot due to Bethesda's devotion to their own way of doing RPGs.

It's like if Nintendo said they were making a Metal Gear Solid game. I think Nintendo is a great company, but they make different kinds of great games that don't exactly fall in line with what makes Metal Gear Solid a great series.

 

[ComradeJim270]

My concern is that while Bethesda does make some pretty good RPGs, they are a different ballpark than what made Fallout good.

Fallout had certain strengths that made it stand out as a seminal western RPG. These strengths don't appear to be Bethesda's strengths. And while I have no doubt that Fallout 3 will sell well simply based on riding the coattails of Bethesda's previous success, I feel that the magic that made Fallout will be traded for the magic that made the Elder Scrolls games. It will be this hybrid monster that attempts to keep the spirit of Fallout, but cannot due to Bethesda's devotion to their own way of doing RPGs.

It's like if Nintendo said they were making a Metal Gear Solid game. I think Nintendo is a great company, but they make different kinds of great games that don't exactly fall in line with what makes Metal Gear Solid a great series.

This is one of the reasons I have a problem with them making "Fallout 3"... that means the actual sequel to Fallout 2... and not just a Fallout game (which I think they could do... Fallout 3 will likely be better than Tactics, and is a sure bet for being better than BoS). They think they can make a good Fallout 3, and they're pretty damn arrogant about it, too. They think they are worthy not just to take up the torch, but to carry it, and then they decide to hop on one foot while carrying it with their toes... and they don't understand why anyone thinks that their one-legged, no-hands relay race isn't cool.

 

[Gormless]

This is one of the reasons I have a problem with them making "Fallout 3"... that means the actual sequel to Fallout 2... and not just a Fallout game (which I think they could do... Fallout 3 will likely be better than Tactics, and is a sure bet for being better than BoS). They think they can make a good Fallout 3, and they're pretty damn arrogant about it, too. They think they are worthy not just to take up the torch, but to carry it, and then they decide to hop on one foot while carrying it with their toes... and they don't understand why anyone thinks that their one-legged, no-hands relay race isn't cool.

This vitriol and hatered directed at a publisher who would dare to release a sequel to a game you liked has always been part of the elitism I've hated.
fallout 2 was a great game but its time to move on.

 

[ComradeJim270]

This is one of the reasons I have a problem with them making "Fallout 3"... that means the actual sequel to Fallout 2... and not just a Fallout game (which I think they could do... Fallout 3 will likely be better than Tactics, and is a sure bet for being better than BoS). They think they can make a good Fallout 3, and they're pretty damn arrogant about it, too. They think they are worthy not just to take up the torch, but to carry it, and then they decide to hop on one foot while carrying it with their toes... and they don't understand why anyone thinks that their one-legged, no-hands relay race isn't cool.

This vitriol and hatered directed at a publisher who would dare to release a sequel to a game you liked has always been part of the elitism I've hated.
fallout 2 was a great game but its time to move on.

I have moved on from Fallout 2. But that does not mean I have to be pleased with Fallout 3, especially since it COULD be done better. If you read my posts from earlier in the thread, you would know I am not a purist. I do not need a turn-based isometric game to be happy. I need a well-written game that offers meaningful freedom, meaningful choices, and interesting characters.

If Bethesda was making an effort to offer these things (the latter two of which should be a key part of any RPG, in any franchise, by any company), or at least some of them, I WOULD BE SUPPORTIVE OF THEM. Instead, they are taking on an arrogant, callous, self-righteous approach, making no effort to create a great game ('good' is enough for them, because they know reviewers will all wank themselves raw over it and tell everyone to buy it no matter what it's like), to do anything memorable, or really to make anything other than Oblivion with guns. The way they are behaving is disgusting.

What I see from them is everything that is bad in the gaming industry. They started with Oblivon, and will not stop with Fallout 3. They are focusing on churning out tepid, forgettable, half-assed titles that are just good enough to make a killing on their release. They are shitting all over many fans (not just the crazy ones, either, oh no!) with a shockingly uncaring attitude ... they did with Oblivon, and now they're doing it with Fallout 3. Indirectly, they're doing it with fans of RPGs in general. They are showing developers that you don't need to make a genuinely good game to be successful. They are making greed, laziness, and dishonesty look like appealing business strategies to other companies. Even if I didn't care about Fallout, I would still hate them, because their actions are contemptible, and I believe they are also harmful to RPGs as a genre, even to gaming on the whole.

Yes. I hate Bethesda. But it is not an irrational hated.

 

[SonofSeth]

Oh please Comrade, your hate is a poster child for irrational.

Now let's hope that numbers don't lie.
http://kotaku.com/371657/fallout-3-has-over-200-endings

 

[Gildedtongue]

Both Oblivion and Morrowind claimed to have "choice" in your actions, but in the end, it all came down to "killing someone with a sword, or with a hammer, or with a fireball." In the end, violence was the only answer.

Fallout, especially Fallout 2, tended to shy away from such mindless killing. Sure, there were times when only a gun will do (try talking your way out of a pack of hungry wolves...), but in most of the main quest sequences, one could find means to overcome the issue with nonviolence, such as theivery (something ol' Trilby would be proud of), or diplomacy. So, Fallout had the best aspects of the turnbased RPG, the strategy game, and the graphic adventure.

The Elder Scrolls games, traditionally, have made speechcraft/streetwise/etiquite and merchantile, as well as the personality stat, near useless to get anything done. No quests could be solved by a good discussion, and all you could do with it is try to convince the guards to not stab you too hard (and at that point, honestly, you can probably stab them harder). And stealth seemed to be an afterthought, something to give the thief class, but didn't seem to help or hinder anything.

 

[ComradeJim270]

Oh please Comrade, your hate is a poster child for irrational.

Now let's hope that numbers don't lie.
http://kotaku.com/371657/fallout-3-has-over-200-endings

So, it's irrational to be have a problem with people being huge assholes, and potentially having a detrimental effect upon not just a game series, but an entire genre of games, or even (in conjunction with other factors) gaming as a whole, in the process? What do you think would be rational? Apathy? Sycophantic fanboyism? Unchecked optimism? Those seem to be the popular reactions right now. Please, enlighten me.

Please excuse the thread necromancy, I've been busy lately.

 

[AngryMan]

Why the assumption that, just because it's Bethesda making the game, they'll be sticking to the Elder Scrolls system?

If they'd been responsible for BAD games in the past, I wouldn't be giving them the benefit of the doubt, but they aren't. Plus, there's a lot of expectation riding on this game - people have a certain idea of what Fallout should and should not be like. If they don't try to work with those expectations, they'll piss off a lot of paying customers, which no company wants.

So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm yet to know them to make an actively bad game, and when they're building on something with the prestige and history of Fallout, I strongly suspect that they'll be trying to put a new twist on what made Fallout so good in the first place, rather than trying to do something completely new that's liable to backfire.

 

[Moochkin]

i think my biggest doubt about it is that they are getting rid of the turn based fight system, this worked really well in the original games and ill be sad to see it go, however i am still looking forward to getting the game as i loved some of there other games, so even though it will not be in the style we all love im hoping that they will pull something out that will blow us all away wondering why we ever doubted them.

 

[ComradeJim270]

Why the assumption that, just because it's Bethesda making the game, they'll be sticking to the Elder Scrolls system?

If they'd been responsible for BAD games in the past, I wouldn't be giving them the benefit of the doubt, but they aren't. Plus, there's a lot of expectation riding on this game - people have a certain idea of what Fallout should and should not be like. If they don't try to work with those expectations, they'll piss off a lot of paying customers, which no company wants.

So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm yet to know them to make an actively bad game, and when they're building on something with the prestige and history of Fallout, I strongly suspect that they'll be trying to put a new twist on what made Fallout so good in the first place, rather than trying to do something completely new that's liable to backfire.

I used to think that way. But they have now admitted it will be Oblivion with guns. No bullshit, that's what they actually said. I am not assuming it will be like Oblivion, because assumptions are no longer neccesary on that point. On top of that, Fallout is old enough that they can afford to alienate old fans in favor of new ones. It doesn't help that most of the biggest fans come off as batshit crazy. I doubt they will make an honest attempt to preserve the things that made Fallout great, because it's so much easier to just do the same crap they did with Oblivion, embellish and tweak it a bit, and then hype it up so people will tell themselves it's the best thing to happen to gaming since Pong.

Even if they were apparently making the effort I would like to see, I still would take everything they said with a dose of salt or three, because they gave us bullshit about Oblivion, and have already done the same for Fallout 3 before it's even out (which is kind of impressive).

On a more positive note, at least I will be pleasantly surprised if the game turns out to be better than the mediocre bore that I expect.

(edited for spelling)

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

While I will miss Isometric Viewpoints and Interesting Turn Based Combat, this is the next-gen era and NOBODY is willing to do Isometrics and Turn Based games anymore except the japanese so one must accept Realtime and First Person. But I trust Bethesda, and I'm pretty sure they love fallout as much as I do, plus they already fullfilled my main misgiving... will I be able to punch a super mutant in the balls... and so far it looks like Fallout 3 will deliver.

 

[ThaBenMan]

Fallout is like... an apple. Bethesda is like... a banana factory. Oblivion, morrowind, etc, were all very good banana's. Bethesda saw that all the kids like eating apples too and decided, "Hey, I recon we could make some pretty tasty apples." All the kids watch in horror as Banana flavoured apples are made.

LOL, one of the funniest metaphors I've seen. I hope you're wrong though. Fallout 3 looks awesome. And I agree with you Gormless, if they get the "Fallout feeling" right, then they will succeed.

 

[Saskwach]

Now I'm just being the devil's advocate here so bite my head off gently, please. To those who agree with the first paraphrase, this post is not attacking you.
A lot of people are saying "I don't care what genre Fallout will be as long as the setting feels like Fallout". Some have added or implied (not necessarily here. I'm constructing a straw man) that it's shallow or hopelessly fanboyist to expect isometric turn-based from a Fallout sequel. I think this second comment goes beyond personal taste and strays into silliness. It's like saying that expecting the Star Wars prequels to be action movies is silly. How is it shallow to expect the same genre of game that you loved in the originals? Genre and mechanics are fundamental to a game.

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

Now I'm just being the devil's advocate here so bite my head off gently, please. To those who agree with the first paraphrase, this post is not attacking you.
A lot of people are saying "I don't care what genre Fallout will be as long as the setting feels like Fallout". Some have added or implied (not necessarily here. I'm constructing a straw man) that it's shallow or hopelessly fanboyist to expect isometric turn-based from a Fallout sequel. I think this second comment goes beyond personal taste and strays into silliness. It's like saying that expecting the Star Wars prequels to be action movies is silly. How is it shallow to expect the same genre of game that you loved in the originals? Genre and mechanics are fundamental to a game.

In one way yes, however, as an example, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Adventure and Final Fantasy 12 were vastly different from that which spawned them, and all "felt" like Final Fantasy games, and were good. How is that different from expecting a "same yet different" Fallout.

That's not to say that I expect anything different overall than Oblivion with guns, but if they take Oblivion and tweak it (much like mods have done with the former game), and they come out with a same yet different Oblivion that feels like Fallout, I will be happy.