The North/South divide?

Macgyvercas

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emeraldrafael said:
Flac00 said:
Macgyvercas said:
That still doesnt excuse the north. The "border" states that allied themselves with the north were for all intensive purposes northern states, and if slavery was practiced heavily there, it still counted to the north.

There's no difference in it at all, the north just wanted to ride a moral high horse so the rest of the world would look favorably on them since slavery was becoming something you didnt want to do in "developed" nations of the time, like Britain (who had outlawed slavery before the US did, yet strangely still supported the South and just waited for a chance to jump in that wouldnt look like they were backing slavery).

And no, slavery itself was not the issue, at least not totally. It came down to commerce at most, and it came down to seeds that had been sewn WAY back when the colonies were still being founded. While slavery was an issue that lincoln had heavy issues against slavery and equal rights personally, but those sentiments by and large were not shared by his fellow countrymen of the North, and especially not the south. to the North, this was a war to bring back the union to what it once was and to show solidarity as a young nation. to the south, it was a war to finally be seen just as good as the union and finally maybe be an equal.

in fact, some of the higher confederate figures, like General lee, were more "northern" in their thinking then the north themselves but they instead wanted to conitnue to believe in a confederate rather than a union that was stepping on them and hurting their economy (and not through trying to be rid of slavery) or rights as states.

Im not saying its right by any means, and Im not saying the south should have been let go and divided from, just the north wasnt totally innocent and moral like it likes to paint itself to be during the civil war and that the civil war wasnt even about slavery at heart until much later int he war (and even then, it was only against the south until the 13th amendment).
1863 was when the war became mostly about slavery. Lincoln was waiting for a big victory, and after Antietam, he knew that would be the time to issue the EP. Believe me, I'm well aware that the war was started over the debate of state's rights vs federal government control, and slavery was on the back burner. However, since there are still a lot of people who think the Civil War was only about slavery (shocking, I know), I figure it's easier to talk about it if I don't have to go into the political history right off the bat. Because, honestly, I just like talking about the battles.
 

emeraldrafael

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Macgyvercas said:
emeraldrafael said:
1863 was when the war became mostly about slavery. Lincoln was waiting for a big victory, and after Antietam, he knew that would be the time to issue the EP. Believe me, I'm well aware that the war was started over the debate of state's rights vs federal government control, and slavery was on the back burner. However, since there are still a lot of people who think the Civil War was only about slavery (shocking, I know), I figure it's easier to talk about it if I don't have to go into the political history right off the bat. Because, honestly, I just like talking about the battles.
Oh, cool. Yeah, not to get on a pedestal or anything, i just kinda like to set it straight when someone talks about the civil war and the north is painted like this angelic savior of everyone (despite being someone who was born and raised in PA and makes frequent trips to Gettysburg :/)

And yeah, me too. I mean, its my favorite war, right after WW2 (not in a creepy way, just a historical way). Actually, it always strikes me as funny that a battle that pretty much ended in a draw at best, and proof that the Union had some really... less than stellar generals can be considered a "big" victory, but then again, after seeing what it did, it makes sense. XD

anyway, yeah. didnt mean to come off as a dick or anything, just saw your post and that irked me for some reason I have no idea of and felt a need for clarification. sorry.
 

Macgyvercas

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emeraldrafael said:
Macgyvercas said:
emeraldrafael said:
1863 was when the war became mostly about slavery. Lincoln was waiting for a big victory, and after Antietam, he knew that would be the time to issue the EP. Believe me, I'm well aware that the war was started over the debate of state's rights vs federal government control, and slavery was on the back burner. However, since there are still a lot of people who think the Civil War was only about slavery (shocking, I know), I figure it's easier to talk about it if I don't have to go into the political history right off the bat. Because, honestly, I just like talking about the battles.
Oh, cool. Yeah, not to get on a pedestal or anything, i just kinda like to set it straight when someone talks about the civil war and the north is painted like this angelic savior of everyone (despite being someone who was born and raised in PA and makes frequent trips to Gettysburg :/)

And yeah, me too. I mean, its my favorite war, right after WW2 (not in a creepy way, just a historical way). Actually, it always strikes me as funny that a battle that pretty much ended in a draw at best, and proof that the Union had some really... less than stellar generals can be considered a "big" victory, but then again, after seeing what it did, it makes sense. XD

anyway, yeah. didnt mean to come off as a dick or anything, just saw your post and that irked me for some reason I have no idea of and felt a need for clarification. sorry.
Ahh, no worries. And it's cool that you were raised in PA. That's where I'm from (Erie, actually), and I have been to Gettysburg twice. And I do agree, the majority of Union generals were idiots. The North may have had a better ability to make war, but the South had people with brains.
 

Techno Squidgy

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kromify said:
DeanoTheGod said:
GiglameshSoulEater said:
We northerners speak proper english, not your 'baaarrrth' as you lot say.
I moved south though and the constant immersion of bad english is corrupting my accent.
Woah there northern monkey... It is we who speak properly, and act civil! Down in the south west, where the real ales are found, the scrumpy tastes as good as the cream teas, and the cyder flows like the River Plym. :p
Tears of Patriotism are spring to my eyes! I want to leap to my feet chanting Rule Britannia and waving the Union Jack!


Also Bath to rhyme with Math just sounds American. Wait... no one says Marth, do they?
I hope not. And it would be 'Marths' anyway. That always wound me up, math. Mathematics --> Maths. Makes more sense to me.
 

WarDialler

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BlackStar42 said:
That line can't be right. The Midlands is NOT Northern! We're in the MIDDLE! Hence the name. We get the worst of both worlds, plus shitty accents. I'd say the line starts just south of Stoke-on-Trent.
Too bloody right mate! MIDLANDS! No Southern Fairies, No Northern Monkeys, just the Glorious race of Mercians!
 

emeraldrafael

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Macgyvercas said:
emeraldrafael said:
Macgyvercas said:
emeraldrafael said:
1863 was when the war became mostly about slavery. Lincoln was waiting for a big victory, and after Antietam, he knew that would be the time to issue the EP. Believe me, I'm well aware that the war was started over the debate of state's rights vs federal government control, and slavery was on the back burner. However, since there are still a lot of people who think the Civil War was only about slavery (shocking, I know), I figure it's easier to talk about it if I don't have to go into the political history right off the bat. Because, honestly, I just like talking about the battles.
Oh, cool. Yeah, not to get on a pedestal or anything, i just kinda like to set it straight when someone talks about the civil war and the north is painted like this angelic savior of everyone (despite being someone who was born and raised in PA and makes frequent trips to Gettysburg :/)

And yeah, me too. I mean, its my favorite war, right after WW2 (not in a creepy way, just a historical way). Actually, it always strikes me as funny that a battle that pretty much ended in a draw at best, and proof that the Union had some really... less than stellar generals can be considered a "big" victory, but then again, after seeing what it did, it makes sense. XD

anyway, yeah. didnt mean to come off as a dick or anything, just saw your post and that irked me for some reason I have no idea of and felt a need for clarification. sorry.
Ahh, no worries. And it's cool that you were raised in PA. That's where I'm from (Erie, actually), and I have been to Gettysburg twice. And I do agree, the majority of Union generals were idiots. The North may have had a better ability to make war, but the South had people with brains.
Im from around Pittsburgh. And yeah. Well, its not really the Union didnt have brains, but they didnt have someone impulsively brilliant and just a slight bit crazy. after grant got in, you had something to match Lee.
 

willsham45

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I think it goes all the way back to the Battle of the roses. Not 100% sure but then again I have lived in wales all my life so apparently I am meant to HATE all English...actually no I think it is everyone I am not 100% sure on that one either...

It?s just a case of learning who to hate and running with it not bothering with the why or how...like the way we Brits are all meant to hate the French.

Not that I have met anyone I have truly disliked...I mean apart from those who are not ones who are not on my I HATE YOU LIST but I have genuine reasons for them being on that list not just some random prejudices.
 

Dags90

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harmonic said:
Florida is the home of Disney, and the space shuttle launch! It is the vacation and retirement headquarters of the lower 48 states. Its proximity to the Caribbean affords it a huge influx of diverse cultures. Florida has a lot going for it.
It also recently had its economy trashed by the housing bubble collapse. It population has started to shrink for the first time in 60 years.[footnote]http://www.alternet.org/rss/the_wire_provided_by_huffington_post/83020/florida?page=entire[/footnote] It has some of the worst unemployment numbers, too.
 

ConstantErasing

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hulksmashley said:
ConstantErasing said:
In America most of the divide comes from racism, civil war, and improper use of the English language. There is also some diversity issues with the south being mostly (from my understanding) white protestants while the north has some more diversity. As to class I am not sure but from my limited understanding the north is more industrialized while the south tends to be more rural so there might be some what of a wealth discrepancy there especially since southern land owners no longer have large amounts of slaves to earn easy money for them.
http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblack.gif

There is actually a much larger amount of racial diversity in the South. Some areas of Mississippi and Alabama can have 50% and higher percentages of African Americans, while the north has 5% or less. Also, very few people in the South make their money from farming. ALSO my pure white grandparents had to pick cotton as children for their families to sell so don't even try to think that all white people in the south were wealthy plantation owners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharecroppers

This is what happened post civil war. To whites and blacks equally.

Also I think people in the North, particularly Boston, sound terrible. There is no proper use of the spoken English Language.
Ok cool thanks for informing me. Admittedly I was thinking of immigrants when I was talking about diversity but its still interesting to learn. I suppose it makes sense in a way, I mean you did have a large amount of African Americans (or should I say blacks? Some people find one more offensive some find it to be the other, someone should come up with a term everyone can accept but whatever that's off topic) in the south during and after slavery. Also my knowledge of the south is mostly from pre-civil rights era and then largely dealing with the KKK and prohibition era, but from what I hear on the news while population may be rich and diverse attitudes aren't. Again that is only whats on the news but I imagine that those kinds of attitudes are more prevalent in the south than the north. Secondly I never suggested that all white people in the south were wealthy, that would be ridiculous. What I was saying is that south have a decently sized bourgeoisie (love that word) population of their own. However I find it a little harder to believe that the south is less rural than the north. Yes I have already admitted my knowledge is dated but from what I know and hear of the south (and keep in mind when I talk about the north I am referring to easterly states mainly) it has always been more rural and less urban than the north.
 

ace_of_something

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Man, Britain. Just draw a line on the map like we do.

Hell, we make our children learn to color it in that way. Though I'm not sure why this botard kid went rogue and colored Alaska and Hawaii like that.
 

realist1990

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maybe the hatred has been passed on from caveman times. Ug cave hate Lug cave..
It just seems to be a human thing that you stick with people who have familier sounding voices..
and also disliking them because you don't know the area and don't feel comfortable.

but just on North/South relations, I'm from Ireland ignoring politics( huge can of worms) there does seem to be general dislike and not just on sectarian lines but rather geographical lines
 

M Rotter

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maybe im biased because i live in the extremely liberal Austin Texas, but i feel like the North/South divide is disappearing and the only people who care to wage the North/South argument in America (except in jest :) ) have nothing else to direct their energy towards. The only difference i ve ever heard of was when a friend of mine moved from New York to Austin and was genuinely freaked out that strangers on the street would look her in the eye and smile when they passed. Doesnt mean the South is actually more polite, because im aware it can come off like we re all the same cult :)
 

Flac00

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emeraldrafael said:
Flac00 said:
Macgyvercas said:
That still doesnt excuse the north. The "border" states that allied themselves with the north were for all intensive purposes northern states, and if slavery was practiced heavily there, it still counted to the north.

There's no difference in it at all, the north just wanted to ride a moral high horse so the rest of the world would look favorably on them since slavery was becoming something you didnt want to do in "developed" nations of the time, like Britain (who had outlawed slavery before the US did, yet strangely still supported the South and just waited for a chance to jump in that wouldnt look like they were backing slavery).

And no, slavery itself was not the issue, at least not totally. It came down to commerce at most, and it came down to seeds that had been sewn WAY back when the colonies were still being founded. While slavery was an issue that lincoln had heavy issues against slavery and equal rights personally, but those sentiments by and large were not shared by his fellow countrymen of the North, and especially not the south. to the North, this was a war to bring back the union to what it once was and to show solidarity as a young nation. to the south, it was a war to finally be seen just as good as the union and finally maybe be an equal.

in fact, some of the higher confederate figures, like General lee, were more "northern" in their thinking then the north themselves but they instead wanted to conitnue to believe in a confederate rather than a union that was stepping on them and hurting their economy (and not through trying to be rid of slavery) or rights as states.

Im not saying its right by any means, and Im not saying the south should have been let go and divided from, just the north wasnt totally innocent and moral like it likes to paint itself to be during the civil war and that the civil war wasnt even about slavery at heart until much later int he war (and even then, it was only against the south until the 13th amendment).
Not completely. Border states were called border states for a reason, they may have believed in the Union, but they still had a large population of wealthy slave owners who would react badly towards a declaration of freedom for all slaves.

Second, the North and the South both did not really care what the rest of the war thought at that time (at least not in the sense of now adays), so the fact that Britain had or didn't have slaves did not have any major effect on the states. They were very isolationist at that time, so the foreign policy of that time was mostly non-subtle and low brow.

Thirdly, the reason Britain supported the South was for low cotton prices and a weakened United States. Two United States would make easy pickings for Great Britain to either conquer or simply influence. Slavery again did not effect either party in that case.

You are right that slavery was not the major reason, however the South certainly felt it was that way at points. In fact, in the documents of South Carolina, Georgia, and a few other Souther states (the few that I have read) all give slavery as a reason for secession. The North may not have put slavery as its major reason for starting the war, however the issue was later brought up as a reason to continue the war (since patriotism can only take you so far).

Next: Lee only joined the Confederates because of Virginia. Had Virginia stayed Union, he would have been a Union general. Not to mention that Virginia came very close to both staying with the Union but also outlawing slavery (the difference of a few votes and powerful plantation owners).

Of coarse the North wasn't innocent in the end, however the actions of much of the South after the war was unconscionable. Bigotry, lynching, not to mention a long term culture of constant resentment for a region that does not return it. In all honesty, there may be insults thrown back and forth, thats fine. But the whole counter-culture movement still remembering the "good ole days" of the Confederacy is ridiculous. This fortunately has decreased in the past decades, however it still resounds in the deep south and with the older generations of the South.
 

Flac00

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hulksmashley said:
Also I think people in the North, particularly Boston, sound terrible. There is no proper use of the spoken English Language.
WOAH, WOAH, I MEAN WOAH. Ahs ah evil lettahs, theh is no reason to use them! Keep talkin and i might just have to pahk my cah in havahd yahd!
 

Edible Avatar

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ace_of_something said:
Man, Britain. Just draw a line on the map like we do.


Hell, we make our children learn to color it in that way. Though I'm not sure why this botard kid went rogue and colored Alaska and Hawaii like that.
or why he utterly failed in coloring the U.P.

[sub]YOOPERS ARE PEOPLE TOO! *Sobbing*[/sub]
 

ConstantErasing

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hulksmashley said:
Lol. Bourgeoisie is a pretty awesome word. Also, sorry that I insinuated that the south was less rural that the North. I didn't mean to. It is definitely more rural, it's just it's not rural like it was. I was trying to say that most people don't make income from farming anymore, so the "lack of workers" isn't really an issue. Sorry :)

Also I don't know what term to use either. I usually use black in conversation, but African American when writing. I don't know why. I just try not to offend.
Ok, makes sense. Thanks for the replies. Also something I forgot to mention in my last one- I would agree that there is no "proper" way to use the English language and I said that mainly in jest, but, and I was born and raised in Missouri so I do have some experience with this, I find that "southern speak" is a tad harder to understand than "northern speak" tends to be though I will agree there are some weird accents in the north as well, though that might also just be who I have actually conversed with. However I will say this straight out, the hardest accent for me to understand is British. I have been to London and there were people there whose accent I had more difficulty comprehending than that of a non native speaker.
On a totally unrelated note, right after I learned the word Bourgeoisie it came up everywhere, even in a show like Lucky Star. Admittedly that tends to happen with new words but this one was especially bad and my friend had the same experience with it. Did the same thing happen to you?
 

octafish

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Forget the North/South divide you really only have to worry about the Nort/Souther divide.