The offensive Protagonist

[Amaror]

So Deponia: Doomsday just sneaked up on us, getting announced only a few days before getting released.
So I read a few reviews, both from professional reviewers and users, about the game and came upon the review from rock, paper, shotgun.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/03/03/deponia-doomsday-review/
And, boy, does that reviewer hate the game. With an unending fury.
But even though I bought the game and enjoyed it myself very much, I don't want to start a rant about how the rant of this reviewer was completely wrong.
I would rather focuss about one point in the review. A large amount of criticism in this review, and this reviewers reviews of the previous Deponia games, seems to come from his opinion that the games are sexist, racist, transphobic and so on. This mainly comes from the perspective that a lot of the protagonists actions are sexist, racist, transphobic and so on.

Now I never felt it that way, mainly because the main protagonist is never portrayed as a role model of any kind. Right from the very beginning of the series it gets well established that Rufus is lazy, self-centered and just a plain asshole. The humor of the game mostly comes from seeing what stupid plans Rufus thought of this time and seeing him rightly failing over and over and over again.
There's also quite a bit of humor involving Rufus being an insensitive jerk to other people, but it never felt like
"Haha, look how he told of those stupid minorities, haha."-humor
and more like
"Oh my God, I can't believe he did THAT!"-humor.
So in my mind it never was really a big problem. Yes, the protagonist was an asshole, but the game makes it very clear that pretty much none of his actions are good, smart or just overall right.
Edit: Reading some of the comments so far I want to clarify a bit more what kind of asshole Rufus is. Unlike some possible other protagonists, he is not straight up evil or bad. He genuily is a person that sortof means well overall, but is very self-centered and too stupid to realise how his actions affect other people. He has some offensive views about people, but it's always clear that that's mainly because he is stupid. He doesn't know any better. And more often then not it very quickly bites him in the a**, when he is being offensive.
Though he still does genuily terrible things due to his shortsighedness and selfishness.

So that's my opinion. What do you think? Is it okay for an protagonist to be an unpleasent person? Or should protagonists always display the best qualities that a person should have?

Also as a little addendum: Is the satire in having the female character that the main character tries to protect and get to, literally being named "goal" really that hard to detect?

 

[Fox12]

Well, I haven't played the games myself, but there's definitely a fine line there.

People can't seem to understand that just because a protagonist behaves a certain way doesn't mean that the creator endorses that behavior. I think there's something to be said about reprehensible protagonists. There's a certain nuance there that some people can't pick up on.

Edit: Yeah, that review was really bad. Even if the complaints have merit, the reviewer should have some class. Also, are you telling me Neill Blomkamp stole his entire movie idea from a German adventure game? Elysium, really? What a hack.

 

[CritialGaming]

IT is absolutely okay to have an asshole protagonist. Every GTA main character, Kratos, Ruby (from WET), Deadpool, Saint's Row characters. Asshole dickheads are everywhere in the game industry. It can be a fun character to play. To a lesser extent you can count Renegade Shepard, and being the evil Infamous dude who's name I can't remember (Cole?).

As for this reviewer, clearly he wasn't the kind of guy for a game that is clearly designed around offensive, crude, and janky humor. The reviewer spends so much time focusing on the story that when he does actually get to discussing the puzzles, which share a crude and dirty level of humor to them, he is so bias and turned off by the game's overall content that it clearly mares how he felt about the given puzzles.

In his disgust for the game, it is easy to see how he might miss the game telling him how to solve the puzzles he found stupid, because he was already trying to pay as little attention to the detail of the game as he possibly could.

Professionally the moment he found the humor disgusting he probably should have passed the game off to a fellow reviewer on the site that might enjoy that kind of humor more and thus would be able to judge the game on the merits of what it is trying to be. Which is clearly an offensive, shock humor, game. Thus the game could be given a fair shake, even if the fair shake still results in a shitty review score.

 

[SweetShark]

I played the first Deponia game and I have plans to play the Chaos one and the other games, so please no spoilers ok? Thank you.

So, when I played for the first time the game, I indeed STRONGLY disliked the protagonist as well.
As you said, he is a essentric, sexist, etc, etc asshole you think only for himself.

However

Spoiler: END Spoiler for Deponia 1

Rufus grow as a character because even his dream come true in the End [go to the "Paradise City" and have a girl who would never complain and always would love him], he realised how wrong his wish is and decided to do the right thing.

Sure, even after this event Rufus is still himself, but he at least is a good guy at his heart.
Better being an Asshole and do the right thing than be a "Nice White Armor Dude" and manipulate the people who trust you for his own selfies reasons.

Rufus is Ok in my Personal Heroes Book. I hope he get more character development with the games I will play.
Am I right without spoiling something from the plot?

 

[Musou Tensei]

So that's my opinion. What do you think? Is it okay for an protagonist to be an unpleasent person?

Absolutely, I love my sociapathic, genocidal, racist and sexist Femshep.

I see the problem with Deponia though, Deponia is a german franchise by a german dev, and many things americans think is inappropriate, are just laughable here, for example several M rated games are 12+ here, like Senran Kagura 2, DOAX2, Persona 3 and 4 +Golden (all uncensored mind you), TES IV Oblivion, or the Hot Coffee mod of GTA SA that upped the rating to AO, absolutely no big deal here, and I will just assume that Mr. John Walker is american.

So basically, the reviewer is an ingnorant bigot, someone who thinks his culture is the only right one, his values are pure and cultures with different values are barbaric. At least he fits well at RockPaperShitgun.

 

[Amaror]

Rufus is Ok in my Personal Heroes Book. I hope he get more character development with the games I will play.
Am I right without spoiling something from the plot?

Yeah, Rufus is definatly someone that means well. He's just such an asshole that more often than not he doesn't do well. I am not gonna say more.
Nevertheless I would advise you to avoid this thread, you never know when someone will just through a few spoilers out there for sh**s and giggles. Enjoy the other games!

 

[SweetShark]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first three main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

 

[CritialGaming]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

Nobody here is talking about Heroes. We are talking about Protagonists. Not the same thing. Kratos is the Protagonist of his games.

 

[SweetShark]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

Nobody here is talking about Heroes. We are talking about Protagonists. Not the same thing. Kratos is the Protagonist of his games.

GOD. DAMMIT. You are right.
Sorry, my hate for Kratos for his acts drive me always crazy...even if I love the gameplay and the Theme of his games....
Well, yes he is the Protagonist in his game duh, but he is no a Hero. NEVER!

 

[CritialGaming]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

Nobody here is talking about Heroes. We are talking about Protagonists. Not the same thing. Kratos is the Protagonist of his games.

GOD. DAMMIT. You are right.
Sorry, my hate for Kratos for his acts drive me always crazy...even if I love the gameplay and the Theme of his games....
Well, yes he is the Protagonist in his game duh, but he is no a Hero. NEVER!

LMAO! The Saint's Row, and GTA characters aren't heroes either. PROTAGONISTS!!!!! EVERY ONE!!

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Hell, Conker! Conker is amazing and he's an foul-mouthed, womanizing violent drunk con-artist! And its incredible! He literally swims in shit, gives cows diarrhea, bounces on multiple sets of honkers, and pisses on strippers. And its funny and its incredible.

Likewise Kratos. Gods of War is an absolute riot! Its SOO goofy, so over the top and silly! He's like Angron, except even MOAR goofy.
Its the type of game that would cast Arnold at Kratos and Kathy Ireland as the squeaky voiced 'badass' warrior princess love interest for the 80s action movie.

Offensive protagonists, written by people who want to be edgy and offensive, always come off as goofy and make for the best comedy games!

 

[SweetShark]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

Nobody here is talking about Heroes. We are talking about Protagonists. Not the same thing. Kratos is the Protagonist of his games.

GOD. DAMMIT. You are right.
Sorry, my hate for Kratos for his acts drive me always crazy...even if I love the gameplay and the Theme of his games....
Well, yes he is the Protagonist in his game duh, but he is no a Hero. NEVER!

LMAO! The Saint's Row, and GTA characters aren't heroes either. PROTAGONISTS!!!!! EVERY ONE!!

I KNOW RIGHT?
I automaticaly think Protagonist = Hero, that when I saw the name Kratos in your post, I don't even saw the other names!!!!
I am so dump dump sometimes.

 

[Pseudonym]

From the description this review gave this sounds very similar to Hektor: badge of carnage. That also has a lot of filthy, insulting, cynical humour.

Another comparison though somewhat different would be strongbads cool game for attractive people.

Both of those games have thoroughly unlikable protagonists who do unpleasant things. Strongbad clearly is unable and unwilling to empathise with other people which means his attitude to other people is disrespectful. A part of this is his view of women as either a nuisance or a sex object. Hektor is a corrupt cop and everything he does is either grossly corrupt, outright evil or just really gross.

Both are also point and click games that have fairly little logic to them. In strongbad the best approach is to just click everything and because strongbad has a new insult or compliment to himself for everything you click that works. In Hektor when trying to solve a puzzle the best thing to do is to think 'what is the most disgusting way to solve this problem' and then do just that.

So I can imagine that if deponia is like those games, that the reviewer has gravely misunderstood the point of a lot of the jokes and puzzles.

Now here I want to allow myself a weasley caveat: I haven't played deponia myself. I don't know whether it's good. I also don't think that something is automatically satire just because it is in a satirical game. If a joke is merely 'trololol, a transgender person' which was apparently how it came off to the reviewer, then your game might be satire all you want, it's still just making fun of people by appealing to harmful and hurtful stereotypes and I fully understand why the reviewer doesn't like that. Just because something is a joke doesn't mean it's a good joke or beyond reproach for being insensitive or demeaning or whatever.

Maybe the reviewer has mistaken what the jokes in deponia are about, maybe the game is just a load of sexist tripe under the guise of humour. Both are possible as far as I can tell at the moment. I might skimwatch a lets play of it to find out more later. Edit: so I just skimmed through a lets play of one of these games. I found it neither particularly offensive nor particularly funny. It's honestly playing it all rather safe. I'm surprised the reviewer got this upset over so mild and drab a comedy game. And yeah, it's fairly apparent that we are supposed to laugh at Drufus and his utter uselessness. I didn't find it all that funny, I'd have hoped the game to go a lot further but that is more of a matter of taste.

 

[NPC009]

I haven't played the Deponia games, but I do love a fun asshole protagonists once in a while. (Eh, that didn't come out quite right, but you know what I mean.

Mind, it does depend on the context. Fun assholes are the ones like House or Tony Stark. Metallia is the main reason I didn't dislike The Witch and the Hundred Knight as much as I perhaps should have. It's pretty clear these people are awful, but they're a lot of fun to watch. Not so much fun was that perverse dickhead in Time & Eternity. In case you haven't heard of it, it's a rather shitty JRPG in which you are trying to get married using time travel. See, you, the guy, get murdered on your wedding day and your future wife tries to save you by going back in time and fixing whatever led up to the assassination. You get to travel along as a baby dragon, which give you plenty of time to peep and do other pervy stuff. The game actually encourages this behaviour. By the end of the game I was really hoping for an ending in which the girl doesn't get married, because it had become painfully obvious she was too good for him.

 

[veloper]

CRPGs are the wish fulfillment genre, not AGs.

Point&click AGs have featured losers, anti-heroes and scumbags as the protagonist since the humble beginnings of the genre. You don't have to like or identify with the main character here no more than you have to in a novel or a movie. The characters only have to play their part in the story. A character's position is also not the same as the opinion of the writer.

 

[someguy1231]

So that's my opinion. What do you think? Is it okay for an protagonist to be an unpleasent person? Or should protagonists always display the best qualities that a person should have?

Not only do I think it's okay, I prefer my protagonists to have flaws that they're very open and obvious about. I already think video game protagonists (especially the ones where you create your own character) are too much of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu to begin with.

Besides, in many games, having an objectively "good" main character would lead to incredibly jarring gameplay/story segregation. In most open world games, there's nothing stopping the player from going on a murderous rampage, so if we're told that this protagonist is a paragon of virtue, and then the player decides to shoot up a bunch of pedestrians, well, that's some pretty big dissonance there. Sure, they could just make pedestrians immune to damage, but that just leads to jarring gameplay/story segregation of a different type.

Bring on the flawed, unpleasant, even downright evil main characters!

 

[Fox12]

So that's my opinion. What do you think? Is it okay for an protagonist to be an unpleasent person?

Absolutely, I love my sociapathic, genocidal, racist and sexist Femshep.

I see the problem with Deponia though, Deponia is a german franchise by a german dev, and many things americans think is inappropriate, are just laughable here, for example several M rated games are 12+ here, like Senran Kagura 2, DOAX2, Persona 3 and 4 +Golden (all uncensored mind you), TES IV Oblivion, or the Hot Coffee mod of GTA SA that upped the rating to AO, absolutely no big deal here, and I will just assume that Mr. John Walker is american.

So basically, the reviewer is an ingnorant bigot, someone who thinks his culture is the only right one, his values are pure and cultures with different values are barbaric. At least he fits well at RockPaperShitgun.

*calls someone a cultural bigot for judging other cultures

*proceeds to make assumptions about other cultures, implies that his own culture is more enlightened.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I'm merely of the opinion that making your protagonist an asshole is a risky proposition unless you can simultaneously make them likable or charming - kind of like Denis Leary or Sir Humphrey Appleby - and that in itself is a challenge so I salute the dev for trying.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Kratos

Nope, Sorry, but Kratos is the kind of hero......no, f*ck that, he is pure bloody villain!!!
I am not saying Kratos is the "HAHAHAHA I AM EVIL, HATE ME" kind of villain. Yes, he have his reasons why he doing these things in the whole game.
But the same goes for the people/creatures who we as players adress as villains: They have reasons for doing these things like Kratos.

To be as simple as possible, Let say Rufus is the Avatar of Kindness and the whole Good Around Universe and Cosmos in comparison with Kratos.

Before say something about my opinion, let me tell you I LOVE the first main games of the series. However I can NEVEr adrees Kratos as a Hero. Like this is the ultimate TABOO for me, not for liking snake tits.

Nobody here is talking about Heroes. We are talking about Protagonists. Not the same thing. Kratos is the Protagonist of his games.

Thing is, Kratos is a hero. At least in the first game, before they turned him into the erupting volcano of unbridled rage from the sequels.

Just not a hero in the way we use the word today, but a classical hero. Classical heroes are generally peerless warriors who live for fighting in some great war or epic quest. They are characterized by being incredibly gifted in some way, mostly in terms of physical or martial ability, and commonly have some divine ancestry. But, they are also almost always deeply flawed in some way, such as being very violent, foolhardy, arrogant, callous or otherwise prone to invariably causing their own tragedies and disasters. Classical heroes more often than not didn't embody the Christian notion of an upstanding, perfectly moral hero, examples being Heracles, Achilles or Beowulf, none of whom were paragons of virtue.