The offensive Protagonist
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The smug cultural superiority is even more funny considering Musou is from Germany, the country infamous for government censorship of violence and any nazi imagery in games. The post almost reads like a parody, you could so easily turn it around by switching senran kagura with team fortress 2 or persona with Wolfenstein: the New Order. I mean it's not his fault us Americans are just so much more tolerant of violence in art and don't squirm like children at the sight of a little blood.Fox12 said:
Or you know, we can admit all countries have their hang ups when it comes to certain topics and not act like hypocrites because another country doesn't have exactly the same "enlightened" morals as us. America does dumb shit, but it seems silly to get flack about cultural sensitivity from someone from a country that forced the South Park game to censor an anal probing joke.
More on topic, I can see the point the article is trying to make, but generally I give the creator the benefit of the doubt when it comes to deciding whether the protagonist is written to be awful or evil, or if the author is actually endorsing the protagonists view point. Anyone that reads military fiction has likely run into those books by authors like Tom Kratman where the protagonist is an awful person and you know the author wants us to believe the awful things the protagonist does are actually totally good and what we should be doing similar things in real life.
I don't think this is one of those case though, so I'll be a bandwagoner and say that having a protagonist who does or believes terrible or straight up evil things can be fun, and should t necessarily detract from a game. As with anything, being actually well written is a necessity, If anything it's likely harder to get players enjoy playing a character that is a terrible person than it is to get them to play a good guy. It's probably why so many evil protagonists are so over the top, it's easy to play the overlord, but a lot of people would likely be uncomfortable if you were just playing a more down to earth neo Nazi type character.
I've never played Deponia, but it really depends on the delivery. There's a difference between a story that features characters that do things that you consider immoral, and a story that portrays them in a positive or idealized sense. Usually by the delivery and the way the other characters react to them, you can get a pretty good idea which one the author's going for, and if the character is a mouthpiece for the author.
If the story has the former, you don't have much reason to dislike it. On the other hand, if it comes across as the author using their story to espouse some immoral shit then you have a reason to dislike it. No matter how well the characterization or story is, when it seems to be putting out a message like "Women are weak and helpless", or "Gay people are just men who want to be women" then you're going to enjoy it less.
Ever been around someone who publicly expresses their thoughts on "chinks" and "towel heads"? It's incredibly uncomfortable. When you're playing a game, or reading a book that seems to be doing the same, it can feel similarly uncomfortable, and makes it much harder to get invested in the story.
Not saying that this is the case in Deponia. I know nothing about it. I'm just answering the question in general. It's not the characters that matters, it's how the story presents them
If the story has the former, you don't have much reason to dislike it. On the other hand, if it comes across as the author using their story to espouse some immoral shit then you have a reason to dislike it. No matter how well the characterization or story is, when it seems to be putting out a message like "Women are weak and helpless", or "Gay people are just men who want to be women" then you're going to enjoy it less.
Ever been around someone who publicly expresses their thoughts on "chinks" and "towel heads"? It's incredibly uncomfortable. When you're playing a game, or reading a book that seems to be doing the same, it can feel similarly uncomfortable, and makes it much harder to get invested in the story.
Not saying that this is the case in Deponia. I know nothing about it. I'm just answering the question in general. It's not the characters that matters, it's how the story presents them
I was actually going to bring up Kratos. Kratos is an ass hole. He is a terrible person. If I met him in a dark alley, I would run and probably be hit by one of his blades in my back.SweetShark said:
But I love God of War. I even like Kratos for what he is. There was only really one moment in all three main games that I felt they messed up on and made Kratos just a little too unnecessarily "evil". In GoW3 he kills a guy for his bow. A bow that the guy was going to give Kratos for saving him. All they had to do was let Kratos save the guy and have him try to betray and kill Kratos, and I would have happily murdered the guy.
Anyway, I think Jerk with a Heart of Gold [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkWithAHeartOfGold] is a trope that certainly fits what the OP is looking for. A character with loads of negative traits that the audience can still be expected to like. Though, Jerk with a Heart of Jerk [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkWithAHeartOfJerk] may fit it in a different way.
I certainly think it is okay for a character to have negative traits and I can still like them. Vegeta is one of my favorite characters, after all.
A racist/sexist/transphobic/all or any pair of the above character does not make a developer who holds those opinions.
For instance, i just rewatched Django Unchained (Fantastic film, by the way. Go see it if you haven't. It's quite bloody and there are some scenes that are plain as day painful to watch but it's just fantastically shot and fantastically acted. It's got brilliant dialogue, too because of course it does, it's a Tarantino movie.) and damn near every character, with a very small handful of exceptions in that film is a racist.
But there's a difference between RACIST humor and RACIAL humor. It's a very, very, fine line but the line is there. For instance in this film there's a scene where the proto-KKK (of course it's a bit anachronistic to call them the KKK because the Klan is a post-civil war thing and the film is before the civil war.) show up to kill Django and Doc Holli- I MEAN, Dr. King. The KKK in this scene are portrayed as incompetent, squabbling, childish idiots.
If it truly were a racist film made by racists I doubt the KKK would be portrayed as idiots then slaughtered for the benefit of a few cool shots. The scene doesn't do much for the character development except establish Django as a natural gunman.
Still, the film doesn't shy away from racial epithets, the N word shows up 109 times in the 2hr 45 minute film.
And to answer OP's question, yes it's okay for Protagonists to be unpleasant. There's a reason character growth is a thing.
For instance, i just rewatched Django Unchained (Fantastic film, by the way. Go see it if you haven't. It's quite bloody and there are some scenes that are plain as day painful to watch but it's just fantastically shot and fantastically acted. It's got brilliant dialogue, too because of course it does, it's a Tarantino movie.) and damn near every character, with a very small handful of exceptions in that film is a racist.
But there's a difference between RACIST humor and RACIAL humor. It's a very, very, fine line but the line is there. For instance in this film there's a scene where the proto-KKK (of course it's a bit anachronistic to call them the KKK because the Klan is a post-civil war thing and the film is before the civil war.) show up to kill Django and Doc Holli- I MEAN, Dr. King. The KKK in this scene are portrayed as incompetent, squabbling, childish idiots.
If it truly were a racist film made by racists I doubt the KKK would be portrayed as idiots then slaughtered for the benefit of a few cool shots. The scene doesn't do much for the character development except establish Django as a natural gunman.
Still, the film doesn't shy away from racial epithets, the N word shows up 109 times in the 2hr 45 minute film.
And to answer OP's question, yes it's okay for Protagonists to be unpleasant. There's a reason character growth is a thing.
This reviewer is merely one example of some people not understanding two related facts:
1. Protagonist only means "Lead character", not "good guy."
2. Antagonist only means "Opponent", not "bad guy."
Protags can be as vile and horrid as one wants and antags can be just the opposite.
1. Protagonist only means "Lead character", not "good guy."
2. Antagonist only means "Opponent", not "bad guy."
Protags can be as vile and horrid as one wants and antags can be just the opposite.
Eh, I generally don't like playing as people I don't like. Unless it's in a silly way like the protagonist of Saint's Row.
I think it's just down to personal preference.
It's okay to have a protagonist who is a jerk, but it's also okay for people to not like the game because the protagonist is a jerk.
Some people might enjoy identifying or rooting for someone who is a jerk as a break from the standard 'hero' of video games and therefore enjoy it, and equally other's might say 'Screw this protagonist, I deal with enough jerks in my day-to-day life'.
I think it's just down to personal preference.
It's okay to have a protagonist who is a jerk, but it's also okay for people to not like the game because the protagonist is a jerk.
Some people might enjoy identifying or rooting for someone who is a jerk as a break from the standard 'hero' of video games and therefore enjoy it, and equally other's might say 'Screw this protagonist, I deal with enough jerks in my day-to-day life'.
I liked how PETA in a rare moment of sense approved of clubbing seals in Overlord II because the whole point of the game is to be an evil monster, so they understood that the game was saying that clubbing seals is evil. Never played Deponia, but if you clearly play a shitty person and they do shitty things, then I see no issue with it. GTA is another series where you play as a lowlife jerk (even if you are to somewhat sympathize with them) so playing to their lows makes sense. People just like to be overly offended in the wrong ways.
meh, I feel like the same people who get outraged about it are the same people who get outraged about dark humor. I recognize the protagonist is an asshole, but sometimes (in a linear setting) it's more fun to be a smartass/asshole and let the story take its course.
Granted, anytime I have the choice I'm usually mr. goody two shoes, so I can't say I will actively choose an offensive protagonist.
Granted, anytime I have the choice I'm usually mr. goody two shoes, so I can't say I will actively choose an offensive protagonist.
I personally am not too bothered with intentionally unlikable characters, such as GTAV, God of War, Max Payne 3, Spec Ops: The Line etc. It's the ones that you know you're supposed to like but the writing just makes them come off as smug, childish, twattish cunts or animated mannequins trying to fool you they're human, such as Lightening (and i guess the rest of FFXIII+ characters), Nathan Drake, Sunset Overdrive characters, that xbone exclusive dragon riding game protagonist that isn't out yet...i want them to walk into my giant human blender so i can devour their souls for all eternity. That should go some way towards the giving-back-to-the-community that i so often feel is important.
I never said I'm better, I judge islamic culture all the time, and if you want to call me a bigot for that, go ahead, I'm long past the point where words hurt my feels like it used too when I was younger.Fox12 said:
That sounds so 2011 when in fact, besides the nazi stuff, we get most games uncensored nowadays, and once banned games get unbanned left and right. Doom will be uncensored, Fallout 4 is uncensored, the uncensored version of Fallout 3 got unbanned, MKX/XL are uncensored etc. My need to import from UK because german censorship is decreasing with every year and in 2015 I didn't had to do it at all.EternallyBored said:
And do you want to know why? Because we have laws that make it simply illegal to sell 18+ content to minors whcih got implemented after out last school shooting in 2009, this caused a huge shift inside our age rating agency in the last few years. Really the majority of censorship we face nowadays is the puritanic shit publishers do to japanese games for america and don't bother to give europe better versions.
Australia, mate, it was australia's fault that the anal probing stuff was removed, and Ubisoft being the lazy fucks they are didn't bother to make a uncensored EU version, unlike Deep Silver who only removed anal probing from the AU version of Saints Row 4, not in europe.. Not too bad though, I played a US PS3 import which had all the swastikas and anal probing + even german subs, not that I need them. Unlike american censorship which affects pretty much the entire west, german censorship in most cases stays in germany and is easily bypassable by importing.
I remember reading a lot of bitching about that review. Nothing riles people up more than someone declaring they find something racist or sexist.
OT: I don't mind evil, asshole protagonists, but it does depend a lot on the context. Am I playing a gangster in a story about gangsters, in a shoot or be shot situation, in which everyone else is an asshole? Yeah, that sounds like a fair context to have an asshole protagonist. Am I playing an asshole who has no reason to be an asshole, is surrounded by even tempered people, and likes to bully people who have never harmed them? That sounds like a character I wouldn't want to embody. Perhaps if they were clever or funnily enough written I could, but that is often too much to expect from a lot of games.
OT: I don't mind evil, asshole protagonists, but it does depend a lot on the context. Am I playing a gangster in a story about gangsters, in a shoot or be shot situation, in which everyone else is an asshole? Yeah, that sounds like a fair context to have an asshole protagonist. Am I playing an asshole who has no reason to be an asshole, is surrounded by even tempered people, and likes to bully people who have never harmed them? That sounds like a character I wouldn't want to embody. Perhaps if they were clever or funnily enough written I could, but that is often too much to expect from a lot of games.
Heck, Leisure Suit Larry is a mostly sympathetic sleazeball - but still a sleazeball at heart - and his early games are considered classics of the Adventure Game genre. So yeah, a protagonist being racist, sexist or even transphobic wouldn't be anything worthy of writing home about.veloper said:
I mean, consider literature. Believable characters need flaws, especially if you're looking at literary genres like Realism or the works of someone like, say, Emile Zola. Effective world-building has to include at least some room for assholes or bigots, because no believable society could ever come across as being totally inclusive or flawlessly politically correct.
I'm reminded of someone I follow on Tumblr who writes surprisingly detailed and involved fanfics. There's a lot of wish-fulfillment in there and a lot of her and her buddies writing kinky stuff that gives them the warm fuzzies - and that's fine. The problem is she included a bigoted character for the sake of pathos and the source of some confrontation - because page after page of cuddling and everyday stuff eventually ends up going nowhere. Conflict moves stories forward, so that was a smart basic move on her part.
The thing is, someone messaged her and decided to be a concern troll, saying they couldn't believe anyone like her would include ableist, sexist and transphobic content in her fics. I stayed out of the issue because I'm more the type to prefer original material over fanfics and didn't want to press any potentially hot buttons - but a lot of people came up to remind the idiot that writers have the right to include offensive content in their works if it serves a purpose.
Ugliness or moral wretchedness are perfectly worthy tools to create content with. It's all in the dosage. All of one and you get an Aldous Huxley dystopia under the cover of idyllic events; all of the other and you get Hitler's Mein Kampf.
John Walker is English. Also, lots of germans find Deponia offensive and inappropriate too. It isn't a culture gap. It sounds like your promoting some kind of moral relativism, where a critic can't criticise any foreign piece of work due to differing cultural values - which is nonsense.Musou Tensei said:
Absolutely, only, I go one step further and also say a writer can write anything as long as it's pure fiction, no dosages required. Anything goes here and the flip side is that nobody has to like it.IamLEAM1983 said:
So even mr. Walker at RPS is allowed to hate the game because he cannot get over a protagonist being a bad person. That's fine.
It does make him a less suitable reviewer for this game though. It's not like he couldn't know what to expect considering how the game is advertised and that he also played the three previous games in the series.
At this point in the series, I reckon all the readers will be interested in is how a game compares to the previous installments, as it makes no sense for an AG series like this to jump in at episode #4. What we got was a waste of the readers' time.
I think you have to have a really limited sense of humor if you legitimately get offended at an asshole character in any fiction (as opposed to just finding that the character was unconvincingly written). The reviewer in that article strikes me as this kind of person.
Side note: does anyone at all agree with his complaint about the line "A ghost town is a fairground compared to this place" being nonsensical or awkward? I am just flabbergasted that anyone agreed with him in the comments section. Anyway, it's stuff like this that just makes me want to disregard anything he says.
Side note: does anyone at all agree with his complaint about the line "A ghost town is a fairground compared to this place" being nonsensical or awkward? I am just flabbergasted that anyone agreed with him in the comments section. Anyway, it's stuff like this that just makes me want to disregard anything he says.