The opposite of feminism in gaming?

[MeChaNiZ3D]

snip

As a guy, there was a time when I didn't notice the arbitrary distinctions our society made between men and women. I could be ignorant because, hey, I was more wrapped up in shit that directly and immediately affected me.

Check out this mashup video. It's short, just a minute and a half of toy commercials, without commentary. Take a peek. It's an eye opener. (And it's also funny.)

http://vimeo.com/8268124

While I do find that hilarious, I have thought about this. In the end, the basic contention is whether you think children are brought up to appreciate certain things based on their gender, or whether those certain things appeal to each gender differently. I am of the latter opinion. There's nothing to prevent children from buying toys that aren't marketed to them if they want, and that's something common across plenty of aspects of society, especially now that things are generally more accessible (and parents more open to alternatives). There are a large amount of women in some scientific fields, but not others, and the tea party Lego still sells to young girls better than the action-based male alternative.

 

[Tom_green_day]

Every argument about sexism in games I've seen references games that are very old, and completely ignores newer releases that are more gender neutral. I'm half way through Anita Sarkeesian's first video and so far she's only mentioned Mario, early Zelda and other early games. She has ignored 90% of games, and 99% of all modern games to prove her point.
That's the flaw in the problem of game-feminists. They forget that in most games women are shown as equally capable. LIke in XCOM, Borderlands, Skyrim, Fallout, Brutal Legend, Mass Effect, SSX, Assassin's Creed - and that's just glancing up at my game shelf.
In the grand scheme of things women aren't really shown as being inferior. Sure, you can find cases for it, but you can find cases for just about anything if you look hard enough.

 

[wulf3n]

I am not trying to have a conversion. Just being polite. Since you say "ideology" that's pretty much the point isn't it. Maybe we are not seeing the same thread posts as you say.

EDITED: I guess I had to say, I think my point was not wanting to be punched in the mouth isn't an ideology. Also I misspoke... as often happens when I don't want to be speaking in the first place. As a man I have very little standing to say anything on the subject. I am not sure bigotry fits the bill. It's close but without wasting space probably inadequate (psycho sexual / abusive violence: more stuff I don't know how to categorize and would rather not have to even think about)

In my defense. the only reason I posted is I thought it seemed like a lot of posters were over thinking feminism+games (it isn't a threat to your favorite games. And it's perfectly natural to want to elevate the social status of people like yourself. There's really no there there)

I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about.

No offence, but all I'm seeing is rambling that doesn't have any relation to anything I've said.

I mean you say you weren't trying to have a conversation, but then why would you initiate a conversation.

And what's kind of irritating is saying something is wrong

That isn't how opposites work.

And then to go off on a tangent.

 

[wulf3n]

But something like that shouldn't get the rest of the gaming industry off the hook.

That's an interesting statement.

What obligation does the gaming industry actually have to produce more "progressive" games?

Maybe I'm just taking it out of context.

 

[SmokingBomber465]

There is no "other side" and there is no "debate", the "opposite of feminism" is just a bunch of 12-year-old ponces running around flapping their arms like morons.

 

[Savagezion]

What's wrong with depictions of gaming women could use rational discussion, but moreso, good examples like Clementine need to be put on a pedestal. The game industry is an industry and so has a hard time being imaginative. That's why when great female characters show up the fans to be like, "THIS!! This is what we're begging for, you myopic, risk-averse jerks!"

Nope, Clementine would be considered sexist because she needs Lee to protect her. Tomb Raider was sexist because a male antagonist reach his hand out towards Lara. Also, because she wore a spaghetti string top in the game. Apparently, all women should be wearing Burqas in games to avoid letting the men see any skin - but that is sexist too.

 

[Megalodon]

I wonder how many men were burned at the stake for witchcraft?

Well if you actually want to know, a quick wiki check estimates 15-25% of witch hunt victims were male. Although some countries (example given were Iceland and Estonia) apparently mainly acused men of witchcraft.
However, I also need to point out that burning alive at the stake wasn't a common method of executing witches (heretics yes, witches no), except apparently in France. They mostly seem to have been hanged/stangled, then cremated.

massive wall of text snip

That was an excellent post, and I had similar thoughts on watching Sarkeesian's first video. Well said.

 

[Smeatza]

Spoiler: Four dictionary definitions and three encyclopedia entries

fem·i·nism
[fem-uh-niz-uhm]
noun
1.the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3.feminine character.

Definition of feminism
noun [mass noun]
the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

Definition of FEMINISM
1: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Definition
the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state

Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

feminism
movement for the political, social, and educational equality of women with men

Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and equal rights for women.

I know the official party line is "feminism is just as much about equal rights and responsibilities for men as it is for women."
But I don't see that, in definition or in action.
If you're a male who is suffering/has suffered/feels they have suffered because of their gender then you aren't going to be receptive to this overwhelmingly female centric approach.

 

[generals3]

Why is there no masculinism? Remind me when a culture was so much in favor of women being in power, in charge, and otherwise dominant that men had to fight for their rights, like voting?

Or when men were lawfully subject to wearing heavy metal masks that demonized them as witches just for talking, and being belligerent to their spouses?

I wonder how many men were burned at the stake for witchcraft?

So we should all base our activism on what happened in the middle ages? You realize how absurd that sounds? Should we start a free Congo movement here in Belgium because it used to be a colony? Surely you'd agree how such an argument makes very little sense.

Meanwhile in this day and age men are less happy and live less long than women. And unlike some feminists I believe happiness is more important than random numbers about gender representation. I'd rather be poor and happy than a CEO and on Prozac.

Actually i just found this: "By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women's happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women's declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging -- one with higher subjective well-being for men. "
http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969.pdf?new_window=1

Funny how women are less happy nowadays than during those evil patriarchal times...

If I had shares in pharmaceutical companies which make anti-depressants i'd be tempted to join the feminist crusade to reduce female happiness.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Feminism isn't anti-man, it's anti-patriarchy.

No, its most certainly anti-man... In fact its pretty safe to say it always has been... Its just been getting worse over the last hlf a decade as it becomes clear that feminists can get pretty much anything they want through the tactics of social marxism if they just vilify men long enough.

You're quoting mainly from feminist separatists, which is a sub-movement of feminism and by far not the entire discipline (and taking a few other feminists severely out of context). Find a quote like that from feminist theorists like bell hooks or Judith Butler and get back to me. Feminism isn't united by a hatred for men, but a defiance of the system of patriarchy, which affects both men and women.

You'd also be in a fix to explain away male feminists (who are themselves not anti-male) such as Allan Johnson, Michael Flood, Marc Feigen Fasteau, John Stoltenberg, and little known names like John Stuart Mill.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

But something like that shouldn't get the rest of the gaming industry off the hook.

That's an interesting statement.

What obligation does the gaming industry actually have to produce more "progressive" games?

Maybe I'm just taking it out of context.

They don't have any obligation to make progressive games, nor do they have to conform to any morals.

But we sure can criticize them freely untilt hey do, or over any facet we deem worth criticism. It just so happens I'm criticising them over their lack of progressiveness.

 

[Doclector]

Snip

Acknowledging the ways in which patriarchy affects men isn't the opposite of feminism. It IS feminism. Women are given the short end of the stick in terms of political power and earning potential, but men and boys also suffer from constrained roles and limits to what is acceptable "masculine" expression. Anita has said things to this effect several times in the past, as well as in this last video.

Feminism isn't anti-man, it's anti-patriarchy.

Well, that's the way it should be.

However, when cretins on tumblr and so on got their hands on it, we did end up with the commonly mentioned "feminazi". Who literally does hate all men. We do have to acknowledge that these people exist. They are a part of the problem, and I don't know a single reasonable feminist who doesn't also hate them.

Onto the topic itself, well, just because the other side is unreasonable, doesn't mean they don't exist. The other side in this case would likely be people who don't want women to be reprisented equally in the media for whatever reason. Probably shouldn't be given the time of day, but they do exist.

I think the other side that SHOULD get a voice though is anyone who has a reasonable problem with Sarkessian and others like her. With empthasis on reasonable. The problem at the moment is that there's many who would shout said people down with blind claims of sexism just as loudly as Sarkessian is often shouted down. And that's not going away. It's never going to go away. Because this is the internet. The majority of the first world has access to it, and the majority of them have a tendency to be arseholes when handed anomynity and an audience.

In short, men and women are equal, and should be represented as such. End of argument. Wouldn't it be nice if it could go that simply? But it can't. Because we're dealing with humans here, and humans seem to have a deep aversion to things being simple.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I wonder how many men were burned at the stake for witchcraft?

Well if you actually want to know, a quick wiki check estimates 15-25% of witch hunt victims were male. Although some countries (example given were Iceland and Estonia) apparently mainly acused men of witchcraft.
However, I also need to point out that burning alive at the stake wasn't a common method of executing witches (heretics yes, witches no), except apparently in France. They mostly seem to have been hanged/stangled, then cremated.

Doesn't really answer the rest of my questions, though.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Why is there no masculinism? Remind me when a culture was so much in favor of women being in power, in charge, and otherwise dominant that men had to fight for their rights, like voting?

Or when men were lawfully subject to wearing heavy metal masks that demonized them as witches just for talking, and being belligerent to their spouses?

I wonder how many men were burned at the stake for witchcraft?

So we should all base our activism on what happened in the middle ages? You realize how absurd that sounds? Should we start a free Congo movement here in Belgium because it used to be a colony? Surely you'd agree how such an argument makes very little sense.

Meanwhile in this day and age men are less happy and live less long than women. And unlike some feminists I believe happiness is more important than random numbers about gender representation. I'd rather be poor and happy than a CEO and on Prozac.

Actually i just found this: "By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women's happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women's declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging -- one with higher subjective well-being for men. "
http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969.pdf?new_window=1

Funny how women are less happy nowadays than during those evil patriarchal times...

If I had shares in pharmaceutical companies which make anti-depressants i'd be tempted to join the feminist crusade to reduce female happiness.

Oh course we shouldn't work based on the distant past with practices no longer practiced. You really misunderstood what I replying to.
I was asked why there wasn't any masculinism. I pointed out why.

Thinking about it some, though...
Woman: "Huh... Ya know what? I'd like to see more female protagonists in videogames."
Guy: "Trololol! NO! SHADDAP! STAHP! You get a ton of them! Stupid feminists!"

I know this scenario makes me a bit more sad. Looking through threads on the topic of women in videogames, and seeing people so vehemently against more female protagonsits.
Debating people who say there's nothing wrong, or refuse to believe there's something wrong.
If this small movement gets disrespected so, what does it say about other movements?

I'm not saying all guys are bad, and against it, though. No misandry here. Just saying it baffles me how people can argue against it with sincerity. I can assume reasons, and all, but that doesn't make them more right to me.
I can understand doing it because they're bored, but that's not a whole lot better.
But I guess either way it helps as these threads grow, and get attention, and become more numerous.

I mean sure women aren't getting tortured with the expanding pear, or heavy iron masks for speaking out, and yelling at their husbands, and aren't pressured to wear whalebone corsettes that deform them, and generally are treated better in society than they were even a few decades ago, but, well, there's always one more bug.

 

[wulf3n]

But something like that shouldn't get the rest of the gaming industry off the hook.

That's an interesting statement.

What obligation does the gaming industry actually have to produce more "progressive" games?

Maybe I'm just taking it out of context.

They don't have any obligation to make progressive games, nor do they have to conform to any morals.

But we sure can criticize them freely untilt hey do, or over any facet we deem worth criticism. It just so happens I'm criticising them over their lack of progressiveness.

fair enough