The PC Version of Dark Souls 2 is lazy as hell

[Chris Tian]

Hello user2374 trying to tell me it is inherently impossible to play Dark Souls comfortably with KB+M.

I have played Dark Souls for hundrets of hours with KB+M, the controls are tight, fast, responsive, precise, comfortable and all around pretty much perfect. That is one thing I absolutely love about DS's combat.

Didn't I demonstrate that developers of both DS1 and DS2 put controller as a recommended hardware for the game? I don't know why you want to argue around that.
I'm tempted to challenge you to a duel in DS1 to illustrate in practice that controller beats KBnM, but frankly, I'm just not that vested in the subject (and I'd rather be doing other things right now).

Hä? I dont get what you are trying to tell me. That I am wrong if I liked the DS1 controls with KB+M? I know what they recommend, but the controls with KB+M were still perfect for DS1 with the fixes. Again I really dont get what you are trying to tell me now, that is probably because you keep ignoring my major point: That it is a proven fact that there can be good KB+M controls for Dark Souls. Ignoring my whole core argument and still trying to convince me of some subjective opinion: That controllers are inherently better for DS for everybody, will obviously lead to some confusion on my part.

And you beating me in DS1 with a controller would show me that I in fact didn't like playing DS1 with KB+M?

Just for protocol if you think it would proof the superiority of controllers you are very wrong. On the pure practical basis that we have different skill level (probably). There would be no objective way to figure out how much the input device factors in to that. The only real way to compare the input devices would be to have two players of the exact same skill level compete or have one player play with both and compare his results. And gues with what input device this player has the weaker results...

The only thing I have to master now is not surpassing the death quota on a regular basis.

Does this mean you struggle with dying to often? and did you play DS1?

I don't struggle with dying often. It happens pretty easily.

And no, I haven't. I heard the PC port of DS1 was handled even more poorly than the DS2 port and figured i'd just jump straight to the 2nd, though now with a controller.

The PC Port of DS1 is pretty good now with fixes. So if you like DS2 i heavily recommend you pick up DS1 too. There are some minor differences but all in all it is pretty much the same game. It is a little harder though, at least i thought so, especially if it comes to boss battles, I had the feeling every DS2 boss succumbs pretty fast to the "bury your face in his butt and take a shot when a safe opening arises"-strategy. DS1 will take more cheap shots at you and with most bosses you have to figure out how to beat them and would probably get killed 1-2 times before you did.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Everyone saying "it wasn't MEANT to be played with a mouse and keyboard" Needs to shut up. Seriously, how hard is it understand, IF you port to PC, you need to make the effort to implement the keyboard and mouse. Otherwise, your selling a broken product. If you can't do that, then DONT PORT IT.

If we wanted to play with a controller, we'd go and buy a console. If they can't stand to lose the PC crowd and cant stand to put any effort in, then at least drop the price.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

If we wanted to play with a controller, we'd go and buy a console. If they can't stand to lose the PC crowd and cant stand to put any effort in, then at least drop the price.

They CAN stand to lose the PC crowd though. In fact, they never really wanted the PC crowd to begin with. It took pleas from fans and a huge petition to get the first Dark Souls on PC, and that was the first time that From Software had ever done a PC game. I'm honestly pretty sure they would be very happy not to make a PC port.

 

[Chris Tian]

One of the first things that I said was that you can't expect good porting from From Software because they AREN'T experienced, and you should have known that. On the whole, the port is much better than I thought it would be, given that.

They are trained, experienced and profesional software developers, my point remains the same. If they didn't feel up to the task they should have outsourced it. Don't take my money and expect a "nice try", just because you are s*ittier at your job than you should be.

You say they did the best they could, and are statisfied with that. Thats okay.

But it is in now way an acceptable excuse in a profesional way. I don't know where you work but if may performance would be considerably below industrie standards and I would say to my boss "well i did the best I could and its a little better than last time" I would still get fired.

I don't trust your friend's judgement on AAA porting if he's not even finished his first project.

Well, I trust his alot more than yours, no offense intended.

Also, the fact that emulators work doesn't mean much. I mean, the Dark Souls 2 port works, doesn't it? I also got a Final Fantasy game working, but the setup (not even the legal loopholes, I mean the driver setup) required on my end was so ludicrous that it wasn't even worth it. That's a terrible porting job, don't you think?

It does say alot. Its not about if they work perfectly or whatever. Its says something about the level of difficulty involved in making a console game work on pc.

If non-profesionals can do that, it can not be such an insurmountable task.

And for some reason you want to make me belive that porting a game to pc is a tough challenge, even for profesionals, and thats just not true.

I mean they did it, it is portet, the major issues that are still there could have easily been fixed, if they would have put just a little more work into it then the absolute bare minimum to make it somewhat playable.

This post here just proves you're not paying attention to what is being said to you. They are experience developers yes, but (and I can't stress this enough since you've missed it entirely) they are NOT experience with PC games, porting, or development. Do you comprehend that? And do you even have any idea how hard it is to do that? Your comments such as "a few hundred bucks and someone could of fixed it up in no time" is just ridiculous. I seriously can't tell if you're trolling or you generally have no clue what you're trying to argue.

Oh my god, the game is portet ,it works, everything is fine, except for two specific flaws in controls that break controls to some point. Specific to that point where you are not able to excecute certain moves. These two flaws can easily been corrected because in the last game someone did that. This someone was a non-profesional and he did it unpaid and in his free time. So how expensive or hard could it have been for them to get someone to fix this this time before release?

I really don't get why people try to tell me how unbelivably hard it is to port a game to pc. Thats not even the point, how hard a pc port is or not is completely irrelevant. Because they already succeded with porting the game. All they had to do left is to copy the work an unpaid nonprofesional did for DS1.

Do you comprehend that?

 

[Robert Kalmar]

I mean really, how many PC Gamers have less than five mouse buttons in this day and age?

I have a three button mouse and really hate multi button mouses. So i'm not a PC gamer? Also, i use controllers for games that meant to be played with a controller... It's like saying Street Fighter for PC sucks, because you can't bind the attacks to a mouse button. Throw away your "i won't play with a controller on my PC" attitude and get one. Then stop bitching. You want bad ports? Try DMC3, RE4 and Onimusha 3... 'nuff said.

 

[Okamiyasha]

This is the same thing as realistic flight sims - you CAN, theoretically, play them with KB&M, but if you are serious about the game, you would invest in a flight-stick (at least).

Besides, there are HUNDREDS of games on Steam designed specifically for controllers. Dark Souls is hardly an exception.

FYI, I just checked the official system requirements for the game - it lists controller as "recommended" hardware. That's a clue. In light of that, its the same argument if someone tried to run the game on system below recommended minimum specs, then turned around to criticize the game that it doesn't run properly.

Do read both of Augustine's reasons because they are major points you keep ignoring.

I had to dig up this old account just to try and get you to respond to logic.

Not sure why people jumped on you originally when you had a legitimate complaint for the keyboard controls but now you've just gone off on another subject trying to demand a smaller keyboard control market be catered for completely when the game was designed for and states openly that a controller is "strongly recommended".

If I tried to play Arma 3 with a controller (which is an option from the developers by the way, same as keyboard for Dark Souls), people would tell me how crazy I was for complaining that it's a worse experience.

What is hard to comprehend about that?

 

[Augustine]

Hä? I dont get what you are trying to tell me. That I am wrong if I liked the DS1 controls with KB+M? I know what they recommend, but the controls with KB+M were still perfect for DS1 with the fixes. Again I really dont get what you are trying to tell me now, that is probably because you keep ignoring my major point: That it is a proven fact that there can be good KB+M controls for Dark Souls. Ignoring my whole core argument and still trying to convince me of some subjective opinion: That controllers are inherently better for DS for everybody, will obviously lead to some confusion on my part.

Oh dear god...
The irrefutable fact that controller is listed by the developer as a recommended hardware to play both DS1 and DS2 is the point. So if you get it to work with KBnM, Oculus Rift, a toaster, or a TV Remote does not imply that it was ever intended to be used as such. You enjoy it? Great! Good for you.
DS2 does not control well? Well, you did buy a game ignoring the system requirements - you gonna have to cope with the consequences.


And again, there's this strange underlying assumption that all PC games should run perfectly well on KB&M, in addition to other peripherals, which is outlandishly wrong.

 

[Augustine]

May i just tell you, without any real offense meant, that you are kinda being an idiot? Yes the Devs have stated that a Controller is recommended, but you see, recommended is not the same as required. So you could use a controller, in fact the Devs said "you probably should use one" but that is mainly because, well guess what, they probably think that it is actually better with a controller because they are probably testing the game internally by using a controller.

However contrary to popular belief, the game runs rather well if played with mouse and keyboard, maybe not so much DS1 without all the fixes, but DS2 does. Sure you still have the controller button prompts, but other than that? Keyboard works, Mouse works, both are responsive enough to play the game no problem.

However your last point is perhaps the crown of stupidity, and again i mean no offense by this, but consider this: If you port a game to PC, where the main-input devices are Mouse&Keyboard, then yes it is obvious that game you are porting should actually work good enough with these input devices. After all how about we turn it around?

"There is this strange underlying assumption that all Console games should run perfectly well on Controllers, in addition to other peripherals (which exist), which is outlandishly wrong."

You see the problem here, dont you?

First of all, you cannot "mean no offence", and then insult someone in their face. Multiple times. So, sadly, offence is very much taken.

Secondly, minimum system specs are also "recommended". Everything in the system requirements is a recommendation - and if controller is listed there, there's bloody good reason for it. Sound card, is technically "recommended" as well(plays without it - imagine that). In yonder years, I played Morrowind on a rig much below the recommended minimum. Had to practically do coding to get it running somehow. Wrote my own mods to get it working. Loved it, too. But, I ignored the recommended specs to do so, and suffered for it also. Never went to forums to complain, only for help to optimize it, but that's just me.

Thirdly, quite a few games NATIVE (not ports) to PC, don't play well on KB&M. And that's just native titles. Likewise, ports are even less liable to do so.
Do you wish me to list a massive list of PC sims that barely work with keyboard and mouse? It's a long list. I suspect you just practicing sophistry here, and are not actually dense enough to not be aware of that whole genre.

And no, you cannot compare PC and consoles in terms of accessibility to means of control.
Console is a tightly assembled, standardized package deal whose selling point is ease of access.
PC is a vastly varied collection of hardware and software(loosely) held together by an OS. Oh, and it's primary function is not gaming.
Again, I hope this is mere sophistry, and you actually aware of the difference.

Furthermore, Dark Souls is a niche title(mayhaps less so, nowadays), with a dedicated audience who know exactly what they are about (i.e. have controllers). If OP is a veteran of the series, he is a red herring - a tiny minority. A tiny minority in a niche audience. Which is a fraction of a fraction, for those keeping score. Expecting FROM to cater to his needs is wildly unrealistic.

 

[A-D.]

First of all, you cannot "mean no offence", and then insult someone in their face. Multiple times. So, sadly, offence is very much taken.

Secondly, minimum system specs are also "recommended". Everything in the system requirements is a recommendation - and if controller is listed there, there's bloody good reason for it. Sound card, is technically "recommended" as well(plays without it - imagine that). In yonder years, I played Morrowind on a rig much below the recommended minimum. Had to practically do coding to get it running somehow. Wrote my own mods to get it working. Loved it, too. But, I ignored the recommended specs to do so, and suffered for it also. Never went to forums to complain, only for help to optimize it, but that's just me.

Thirdly, quite a few games NATIVE (not ports) to PC, don't play well on KB&M. And that's just native titles. Likewise, ports are even less liable to do so.
Do you wish me to list a massive list of PC sims that barely work with keyboard and mouse? It's a long list. I suspect you just practicing sophistry here, and are not actually dense enough to not be aware of that whole genre.

And no, you cannot compare PC and consoles in terms of accessibility to means of control.
Console is a tightly assembled, standardized package deal whose selling point is ease of access.
PC is a vastly varied collection of hardware and software(loosely) held together by an OS. Oh, and it's primary function is not gaming.
Again, I hope this is mere sophistry, and you actually aware of the difference.

Furthermore, Dark Souls is a niche title(mayhaps less so, nowadays), with a dedicated audience who know exactly what they are about (i.e. have controllers). If OP is a veteran of the series, he is a red herring - a tiny minority. A tiny minority in a niche audience. Which is a fraction of a fraction, for those keeping score. Expecting FROM to cater to his needs is wildly unrealistic.

Sure you can take it as offense, but none was meant by it, rather that the argument is absurd if you think about it. However recommended specs are again recommendations, they are not direct requirements. As you have yourself said, you managed to play Morrowind just fine while ignoring the recommended requirements for the game, maybe you even ignored the minimum. The point is however that if you could ignore them, than while your enjoyment may be slightly lessened, it is not de facto at zero. You are enjoying it enough to actually play the game, even if you have to take into account that it might not work as perfectly as it should.

However input devices are another thing here, yes a console is a "its gonna run on this console" deal, if some game comes out for the PS3, its going to run on the PS3. However that doesnt mean it will run well on it, or better than on a PC, or another console, if it is multiplatform. Also yes there are titles which play better with a controller, there are titles which are designed with a controller in mind. However i have yet to find a title which does not let me use Keyboard and Mouse, mind you just because the Developer figured that people would use a Controller for their game doesnt mean that they would. I only recently even bought a controller, mind you i had consoles so they werent some foreign concept to me, primarily to play Dark Souls 1, which i couldnt get to work ultimately (thanks GFWL). However DS2 while its essentially similar and a controller is recommended, i have had no trouble playing the game with a keyboard and mouse, i have no had input-lag, wonkyness or anything you could argue that would make a controller better. I have over 130 hours in the game, finished it twice, 3 different builds by now and i have not had ANY problems whatsoever from my chosen input-devices. I have done PvP, PvE, i have invaded, been invaded, done duels and pretty much everything.

Yet, if your claim was correct, my enjoyment, or playstyle, should be less than for anyone using a controller. I have no doubt i have had fights with people using controllers, however my winning or losing to them has nothing to do with the inputs, but rather which build they have, if there is lag and similar considerations. You cant claim that simply having a controller somehow transforms your game into something better, it simply doesnt. You may be used to controller, you may prefer them as your input-device of choice, that however does not make it fact that the controller is superior to the alternative. I have no had any less enjoyment from the game or any more problems than you simply because i dont use a controller, which i could given i own one.

However, FROM porting the game to PC should make sure that the main input-method is supported. That being they have to make sure that Mouse and Keyboard are viable, they might recommend you use a controller instead, but again if they require you to own a controller, then why port it in the first place? Why improve upon the control-scheme for the sequel? After all i dont remember DS1 having as good support for Keyboard and Mouse as DS2 has, so clearly they have tried to make it more viable and better. And to be honest it works, as i said i played the game with nothing but KB&M and had no problems whatsoever. However equally FROM should, for a Dark Souls 3, or whatever they make next provided it comes to PC, further refine this, hence making the controls just as good as a controller, hence eliminating the need for anyone to use one, other than that they can.

FROM cant simply ignore it and demand everyone buy a controller for their games. While they might not "need" those PC Gamers, are you seriously implying they would rather be rid of them? That any company would prefer to make less money, rather than more? If the Audience is there and FROM can cater to them as best as they can, then they should. As such better input is what they can do to make it work better. After all DS2 is better in that respect so clearly they have done the extra-work.

 

[Otakun]

Bound by Flame was developed by a 5 year old company that releases their games on console and PC and yet their KB+M controls were fantastic. From Software has been around since 1986, they have no excuse other then pure laziness for their PC ports.

 

[Chris Tian]

If anything it just shows he has immense skill in that field with far more knowledge than the people at From Software do, how can't you understand that?

If thats the case, I doubt that so incredibly much that I can't even think of a metaphor, but lets just assume for arguments sake you are right, then why did they not higher him.

After all is said and done they could have contactet that guy and asked: "Hey KB+M controls suck again, we can't fix it, would you do that for us before we realese the PC Version?". He did it for free last time so how much would that have cost?

You people keep making this absolutely bonkers excuses for From Software, because god forbid the game you like could have a flaw.

Okay I just have to write it, you seriously mean to tell me some guy on the net could wip up a fix and From Software, who are profesionally doing this couldn't? I mean come on you are just getting ridiculous.

trying to demand a smaller keyboard control market be catered for completely when the game was designed for and states openly that a controller is "strongly recommended".?

The game states it supports KB+M controls, and these controls are broken, they are not bad, uncomfortable or unprecise they are broken, there is a bug in them.

You can recommend a controller all you want, but if you tell me that you included working KB+M controls I expect them to be working.

And again, there's this strange underlying assumption that all PC games should run perfectly well on KB&M, in addition to other peripherals, which is outlandishly wrong.

Now you are trying to tell me I can't expect a game to run on the main and standard input device of my system? That is like me telling you you shouldnt expect every game for the XBox to run with the Xbox controler. You are being ridiculous too.

 

[Chris Tian]

snip

I appreciate you being on "my side", but please don't insult people. Thank you very much.

Bound by Flame was developed by a 5 year old company that releases their games on console and PC and yet their KB+M controls were fantastic. From Software has been around since 1986, they have no excuse other then pure laziness for their PC ports.

Exactly my point, but somehow people treat it as if one expects Dark Souls to turn stone to gold.

 

[Chris Tian]

I haven't even played Dark Souls II, but by all means jump to conclusions as it seems to be all you're doing.

Well, I could instead just make shit up like you and your fantastic story of the mysterious PC controls coding savant from the world wide web.

 

[Rattja]

Hello user2374 trying to tell me it is inherently impossible to play Dark Souls comfortably with KB+M.

I have played Dark Souls for hundrets of hours with KB+M, the controls are tight, fast, responsive, precise, comfortable and all around pretty much perfect. That is one thing I absolutely love about DS's combat.

So why on earth keep people trying to tell me that this is absolutely and inherently impossible and I have to live with the flaws DS2 has now, WHEN FROM SOFTWARE THEMSELFS HAVE PROFEN BEFORE THAT I DO NOT HAVE TO!

I think that stems from the simple fact that 90% of the people here trying to tell me that, have never ever played any Dark Souls game or the like with KB+M and don't have the slightest clue about how they play for someone who is comfortable with that controll device.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said it would be hard, or end up being weird.
I am not sure of this, as I have not played DS2 as much yet, but from what I can tell, the moveset is different from DS1, seems to be more of them. Things like the jump mechanic has changed, so a exact copy of the DS1 controls may not work.

I've been playing with a mouse and keyboard for way longer than anything else, and I did try both 1 and 2 with mouse first, only to change to a controller as it actually was much easier to use. So don't give me that.

But as I said, PC and consoles are just platforms at this point, there is no reason what so ever to say "this thing should only use this one input method"

It's also worth mention that it says under recommend on Steam that you should use a controller. People says it, the people who made says it. One would think there is a reason for this right?

And thanks for ignoring the rest of my post where I told you about the mods. Just think about it and calm down.

Other than the mouse and keyboard control the game works perfectly, so its hardly broken in my eyes. You are using an input method it was not intended for, thats all.

 

[Chris Tian]

Other than the mouse and keyboard control the game works perfectly, so its hardly broken in my eyes. You are using an input method it was not intended for, thats all.

The controller is recommended not required and the controls work, there is just a bug in them, one bug and one oversight. If I would have pointet out that on pc teleporting to and from certain bonfires doesn't work nobody would bat an eye, at least I think. But because I point out a bug in a control system you dont use I am somehow being unresonable.

snip

I'm sorry but you involve yourself in a discussion about a game you have never played and then go on and make up some absolutely bonkers theory to dismantel my argument. There is absolutely nothing, and I cant stretch this enough, nothing logical about that.

 

[Rattja]

[
*Snip*

Unreasonable, well sort of yea.

let's try this.
Let's ignore everything said up to this point and just answer this one question.

Neither the developers nor the modders has made this work perfectly yet, why do you think that is?

Everything in this world is like it is for a reason, this is no different.

CAPTCHA:
never quit
Oh you...

 

[Chris Tian]

Let's ignore everything said up to this point and just answer this one question.

Neither the developers nor the modders has made this work perfectly yet, why do you think that is?

Everything in this world is like it is for a reason, this is no different.

Lazyness on from softwares part.

As for the modders, well the game just came out. The last fix wasn't there instantly either, and none of them have any obligation to repeat their work.

If an unpaid non-profesional could achive it, its reasonably for me to expect From Software to copy his work this time around. Or rather their own work, since the double click issue, wich is the worst offender here because it makes certain moves unexecutable, didnt exist in DS1. They just had to remove doubleclicking completely from the game, since the game was never intended to be played with KB+M and DS1 didn't have it either, that couldn't have been that hard.

I really like your approach here, since these threads get messy and confousing after a while, just sayin.