Games are luxury items, if you aint got the money,then dont play it. Play sports instead, its free...
People also justify using the current economic downturn as a reason, but thats a weak reason. Its like "I steal the plasma TV because i do not have enough money to buy one...." come on, if you do not have the money buy a normal budget tv instead.
Pirate that gives themselves reason to pirate are often bullshit themselves. I am not rich, i just save and read reviews before buying a game. And often, even if you cant afford the newest games, wait for the price to drop often in a month or two you will find them in the bargain bin.
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.
Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?
edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself. You could always, you know, get a better job to subsidize your expensive habits. Or get better at budgeting the money you have. Don't claim that piracy is your only logical option...you're just greedy and want more stuff for less money.
The thing is, it's impossible to justify buying games once you have the means to get them for free. Try this: get a game for your birthday, then save up to buy it again. It's quite hard to do.
Perhaps you covered this later on, as I didn't finish reading this thread, but I think your previous statement is bullshit. Firstly, I would go see a movie a second time in theaters. For example District 9 was fucking brilliant. I liked it so much, even though I already had the movie and the plot line in my head, I went and so it AGAIN! Secondly, there are many times when I have pirated entire games, and then went out and bought the game. I ENJOY giving money to people I think deserve it. I pirated GalCiv II, and then went and bought the game, because I liked it so much, and I respected the company. I understand pirating from companies you don't like or don't trust, but by giving money to people you like, they will make more stuff you like! Its called the theory of supply and demand, you fuckwit.
Ok. An architect draws the blueprints for a house. He sells them for individual use for 10$. You decide to make a photocopy of your friends blueprints. You have now taken the work that the architect took into making the blueprints and decided it's value was 0$. Meaning the plans are valueless. So you don't want them. But you do. So you would say they have value, but you take them for free anyways. The contradiction is written right there.
And with that, I have nothing more to add to this discussion, except that certain tossers need to have a little perspective and stay off those horses which are of exceptional height. Not everybody has your exact experiences or even lives in a place where legit copies of something can be easily purchased.
I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.
If I sold you a painting, and you let your friend make a copy of it because he liked it, did he steal it from me? Should he have to pay me money?
And with that, I have nothing more to add to this discussion, except that certain tossers need to have a little perspective and stay off those horses which are of exceptional height. Not everybody has your exact experiences or even lives in a place where legit copies of something can be easily purchased.
However, lets say we have an writer. He writes a phenomenal novel. Now you say: "I want that novel, but I don't want to pay for it". As luck would have it, it's on piratesbay. So you download it. What have you done? You've taken work that someone else did, claiming it has no value to you, even though it does, as you want it. You've taken the money that the author deserved for the work he did because of your own hypocrisy. To say that you should be able to take what isn't yours isn't moral in my opinion.
grayjo said:
I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.
Yes it was. You valued architect for a certain price, a value above 0$, as you actually want the plans. You then collected the work for a value less than what you valued it, making it a scam, or in other words, stealing. If you don't like the price he offers, you do not value the work as much as he does and therefore have no right to take it from him.
grayjo said:
If I sold you a painting, and you let your friend make a copy of it because he liked it, did he steal it from me? Should he have to pay me money?
Paintings are physical one-of-a-kind pieces. A copy of a painting =/= the original. No one would buy a copy of the Mona Lisa for 27$ million. We're talking about things that are infinitely reproducible like data or schematics.
I'm not saying that piracy isn't wrong... but if you weren't going to hire that architect he wouldn't have gotten your $10 anyways... so it's not theft. It's some sort of arrogant exploitation. After you photocopied it nothing was different for either the architect or the other individual than it was before.
Yes it was. You valued architect for a certain price, a value above 0$, as you actually want the plans. You then collected the work for a value less than what you valued it, making it a scam, or in other words, stealing. If you don't like the price he offers, you do not value the work as much as he does and therefore have no right to take it from him.
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...
I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?
Kubanator said:
Paintings are physical one-of-a-kind pieces. A copy of a painting =/= the original. No one would buy a copy of the Mona Lisa for 27$ million. We're talking about things that are infinitely reproducible like data or schematics.
Infinitely reproducible data cannot be "stolen" unless it leaves you without any data. If I could make an infinite amount of identical copies of physical items... would I be stealing them?
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...
Fine I retract my use of the word scam. It appeared to confuse you. You're using it in different context than I did. For you, a scam is a deal where one side misrepresents their position as more valuable. In mine, it's simply an unfair deal. In piracy, You gain a product while the developers gain nothing. You did not misrepresent your position. There was no trickery. You knew that there was a price for the software and you stole it anyways. You purposefully took the unfair deal against the developers.
grayjo said:
I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?
You don't own the design of your paper airplane. You didn't create any sort of design, the work came out of the physical folding of the paper. The friend does the exact same work and thus earns the same reward. Please stop misusing metaphors.
So, because I have the ability to steal the apple, I should steal the apple. That's your argument? Sounds like an incredibly anarchical and chaotic system of economics and morality. The fact is, you don't need evidence to back up piracy. It's a simple question of what constitutes theft. Let's look at the Merriam-Webster definition.
Merriam Webster Online {Sourced Below} said:
1. the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
Therefore, for clarification, we will define "stealing"
Merriam Webster Online {Sourced Below} said:
1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
3. to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend.
Therefore, stealing is the taking of property, ideas/words (plagiarism), or credit without permission, right, or compensation. We can then move on to say that "piracy" (or the downloading of digital files without payment of some sort when those files are available for purchase in some other way) is akin to theft in that property, ideas/words, or credit are taken without permission, right, or compensation.
One cannot argue that you have the right to this material simply because you can get it for free. I can murder a man and it will cost me nothing but the dry-cleaning to get the bloodstains out. Does that make it right? No. Your argument is flawed in that it assumes rights and privileges that you simply do not have, and likely never will. You do not have the right to it because it exists.
To precipitate the people who will say "I only use it for demos!" I have this to say to you; if a company does not desire to release a demo for a game, then it is not your right to say "I get the full game of this and play it as a demo NAO." Granted, it is not good business sense for a company to refuse potential customers a demo of their product. But you do not get to make the business decisions for GameX. If you try to say that you do have the right to, then you are infringing on the rights of the owner/CEO of GameX to operate his company however he wills. The only "right" (and I use the term lightly) you have is to not purchase the product. It's Economics 101. If you don't like something about a product, you don't buy it. That includes it lacking a demo.
Gilbert Munch said:
Note:No-one on their high horses, saying how it's me who is ruining the world. Unless you have evidence to back up your claim, I will remove your comment from my reality and substitute my own.
Can I use ridiculously unfounded and nearly irrelevant "evidence"? Will that make you listen to me? You're being an idiot by saying "My logic is superior to that of the 'high-horsers', and thus thou art not allowed to express thy opinion in my thread" because you, essentially, block off the anti-piracy debate and stagnate it. That's all the piracy debate is; a question of morality in relation to rights and privileges related to private industry.
Oh, and my evidence is founded. You know, in the English language and an elementary grasp of home economics.
Definition of Theft [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theft]
Definition of Steal [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal]
I won't pretend to think that you'll care about my opinion. Most of the pro-piracy people seem to be closed off to discussion and debate. I beg of you, be the difference.
*EDIT*
In response to Samurai Goomba's comment about "Legit copies are hard to obtain"
That is a bit of a gray area. While it is indeed unfortunate that you can't obtain a "legitimate" copy of a game in wherever you are, that doesn't mean you have the right (legally or morally) to take it for free. I mean, I can't buy breadfruit in Seattle easily, but that doesn't mean I should go out and steal it.
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.
Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?
edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
Your line of reason is that since its a copy, I shouldn't have to pay. A writer prints thousands of copies of a book. Should you steal it just because there are plenty more to go around and it can be infinitely reprinted?
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.
Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?
edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
You stole the labour that went into the engineering of the car. You stole the ideas of whoever created them. If things went like this, no inventor would ever be rewarded, and thus, science would never progress.
The problem is your "thus scam thus theft". Say I trick/scam you into buying into a sucky timeshare... I misrepresented that deal and I wronged you. I didn't steal your money. You consented to give it to me. Scamming is not theft. Theft isn't some broad description that covers anything were someone is cheated out of something. Theft is the physical removal of something that wasn't yours. Let me put it another way...
Fine I retract my use of the word scam. It appeared to confuse you. You're using it in different context than I did. For you, a scam is a deal where one side misrepresents their position as more valuable. In mine, it's simply an unfair deal. In piracy, You gain a product while the developers gain nothing. You did not misrepresent your position. There was no trickery. You knew that there was a price for the software and you stole it anyways. You purposefully took the unfair deal against the developers.
grayjo said:
I sell you a paper aeroplane for $1. Your friend imitates the design and makes his own paper aeroplane. Did he steal $1 form me?
You don't own the design of your paper airplane. You didn't create any sort of design, the work came out of the physical folding of the paper. The friend does the exact same work and thus earns the same reward. Please stop misusing metaphors.
No, because you never stated that you developed the paper airplane that you sold. You simply said you folded it. Had you developed the paper airplane, you would have full right to tell my friend to stop using your work for his profits.
Piracy isn't stealing... it is making an identical copy without paying the original owner.
Just say you invent a machine that can make duplicates of objects. You test it on your buddy's porche, and keep the second porche. Have you just stolen a porche?
edit: Not saying piracy isn't wrong... it's just not theft.
You stole the labour that went into the engineering of the car. You stole the ideas of whoever created them. If things went like this, no inventor would ever be rewarded, and thus, science would never progress.
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...
but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
Argue morality all you want, but trying to charge a universal 60$ price tag for something that can copied infinitely and easily effectively creating a limitless supply and you'll get bitten on your ass. Personally I buy games for convenience, but when I do I still feel like I'm getting screwed, because in the end I shouldn't have to buy unnecessary things just because a collection of publishers and game designers can't come up with a sustainable business model.
It's kind of like if you invented dirt, then tried to charge people money for using your dirt. When it's everywhere. And you can get it 5 feet from your home. Stupid, right?
People use the words theft and steal when dealing with piracy to try and make it seem more severe... which is a pity, as piracy is severe... but I don't think taking something that doesn't belong to you is the same as taking away something from someone else.
Yes... but by your own aeroplane argument.. the labour that went into making the copy (using the machine) was yours... and you dismissed my ownership of the paper aeroplane design...
but still... would you prefer someone copy your car or steal it?
You didn't own the design because you never said you designed it. Had you designed it, you would own it. Niether. You're trying to make me justify copying by saying it's better than stealing, but really, the only difference is that one party suffers less, while the other party still enjoys the unearned benifits.
Delicious said:
Argue morality all you want, but trying to charge a universal 60$ price tag for something that can copied infinitely and easily effectively creating a limitless supply and you'll get bitten on your ass. Personally I buy games for convenience, but when I do I still feel like I'm getting screwed, because in the end I shouldn't have to buy unnecessary things just because a collection of publishers and game designers can't come up with a sustainable business model.
If you don't value it at 60$, then don't buy it. You have no right to control the price of something someone else is selling. If you feel that the game is worthless, then you have no reason to pirate it. If it is worth something, then you have no right to get it for free, so either don't buy it, or buy it.
Delicious said:
It's kind of like if you invented dirt, then tried to charge people money for using your dirt. When it's everywhere. And you can get it 5 feet from your home. Stupid, right?
If games are dirt, try to get a game without a game developer.
grayjo said:
People use the words theft and steal when dealing with piracy to try and make it seem more severe... which is a pity, as piracy is severe... but I don't think taking something that doesn't belong to you is the same as taking away something from someone else.
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