The Problem with RPG's

[Eclectic Dreck]

What other problems have you noticed in Free Roaming RPG's? And how would you adress these specific problems I have mentioned?

Yeah I only noticed one problem: They suck (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Two Worlds, Fable)
It's like trying to recreate the real world, it gets boring and tedious and most characters are uninteresting standardized NPC#x, a story mostly non-existent or extremely thin...

I kinda liked Gothic 1+2 and Risen though (it had a focus more on the game-world and the characters and felt more like a "breathing" thing than the other mentioned ones) xD

The story in many of the games you cited (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and fable specifically - I cannot speak of Two Worlds having never played it) may be thin at times, but keep in mind in each of those games you're spreading a few novels worth of information and meaningful interaction across potentially hundreds of hours of gameplay.

To criticize any particular genre of game for delving deeply into the well of archetypal character is a bit silly as well as every genre and damn near every game ever made has fallen victim to this flaw.

Of course, of all the RPG's I've ever played only one series ever really came close to making a "living" world and that was gothic. If it weren't for the fact that the actual RPG elements were incredibly light and the game itself was almost entirely linear (once you choose a camp it's a straight shot to the end) it would rate as one of my favorite games of all time.

 

[Acaroid]

Hey, so I've been playing a couple games lately like Bully, that are free roaming RPG's. Basically it stands behind the "go anywhere, do anything" mindset of something like GTA, which are the same developers. In all these games, though, I have noticed a few issues that really should have been addressed from the get-go.

1) The first thing a player is going to want to do is go out and kill/pelvic thrust at everything that breathes. This works quite well in sillier games such as Saints Row, but if a developer was trying to make a serious game, this completely ruins the experience. This being said, I don't want the game to hold me on a leash and make sure I'm a good boy, but I definately want to have the freedom to play the game how I want.

2) This is more specific to games such as Bully, or maybe some of the newer Harry Potter games (technically free roaming RPG's), and it's on the issue of classes. For a game thats based on school, they surely have captured it's distinct feel: repetitive and monotonous. Often times there just simple mini games, that's only benefit is boosting one of your stats, which takes the fun out of level grinding all together.

What other problems have you noticed in Free Roaming RPG's? And how would you adress these specific problems I have mentioned?

It is easy, make it not worth your time/effort killing people.

people in gta and saintsrow type games kill people cause they can and is easy. If they didnt make it worth your time, then people would stop doing it...

You can still have to choice, but you have to balance up yourself is it worth it?

People that play RPG's will go out of there way to be dicks, thats probably the first thing they try. I'm looking at this from a developing standpoint: how should they offer free will, while making sure the player doesn't fuck it all up?

Well as I said, in sandbox games, just make it not worth while them killing people. Look at the elderscrolls series, if you kill a civilian you get a whole army of guys after you. You have the choice of killing people or not, but it makes you not want to kill them as it just isnt worth it.
Now im not saying you should have a awhole army of over leved people coming at you, but maybe put in a mechanic which doesnt make it worth your time to kill people. Example would be is that you start getting a rap sheet which never goes away. So as you go through the game, the more non campaign illegal activities you do, the easier cops will come after you, the bigger your punishment etc. Which would make the actual campaign harder and make the game overall. Also the cops are soooo damn easy to kill, or get away from in GTA/Saintsrow so really of course you are going to act like a fool because it is so easy to get away with, they do this on purpose in those games. So also making it not so easy to kill or get away from the cops, armed forces etc this will also distract people from killing.
But like in real life you cant stop people being dicks, you just have to not make it worth it.

 

[Vorpals]

These problems you've seen are either already addressed or too specific to take seriously.

1) The developers create saving so that players CAN go out and kill everything they want and then go back to that save to play the game "properly".

They are giving exactly the freedom you want, with a safety net to make sure you're not screwing yourself over too badly. This is actually a good thing because it allows to play Oblivion, for example, as you would play GTA granted you save beforehand.

If the player doesn't save, that's just a dumb move on the player's part because he had the feature available.

Also, many games today do not allow you to kill important characters, like Mass Effect and Borderlands. So, this is actually good thing given the precautions the developers have taken.

2) That's why the Harry Potter games didn't succeed with the "hardcore" group of gamers.

That isn't really a fault with all free roaming RPGs, but rather with those games you've specifically mentioned yourself.
I don't recall Fallout 3 having any repetitive minigames, or even minigames for that matter.


Free roaming RPGs are a good thing, but I'm not completely against linear RPGs either; I love both.

 

[ajb924]

Some RPG's have gotten right.
Hell, look at Borderlands. Not much of a decision type thing but it's freeroam right? I mean, sure (As far as I know) there isn't a good/ bad option, but it still has free roam, bonus missions, an assload of weapons, and another assload of weapons.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of RPG's. I tried Oblivion, and got bored after 20 minutes. I might have liked it had I given it the chance, but I had gotten Bioshock the same day. I wanted to try Bioshock, once I did Oblivin was blown out of the water. However, I did like the first Fable, and played through the second one once. So, it really just depends on what the gameplay and such are like.
I like liniar RPG's though. They tend to have the best storylines. That's why I'm a JRPG fan. The story is good, and the gameplay is usually pretty good

 

[Shamgarr]

Hey, so I've been playing a couple games lately like Bully, that are free roaming RPG's. Basically it stands behind the "go anywhere, do anything" mindset of something like GTA, which are the same developers. In all these games, though, I have noticed a few issues that really should have been addressed from the get-go.

1) The first thing a player is going to want to do is go out and kill/pelvic thrust at everything that breathes. This works quite well in sillier games such as Saints Row, but if a developer was trying to make a serious game, this completely ruins the experience. This being said, I don't want the game to hold me on a leash and make sure I'm a good boy, but I definately want to have the freedom to play the game how I want.

2) This is more specific to games such as Bully, or maybe some of the newer Harry Potter games (technically free roaming RPG's), and it's on the issue of classes. For a game thats based on school, they surely have captured it's distinct feel: repetitive and monotonous. Often times there just simple mini games, that's only benefit is boosting one of your stats, which takes the fun out of level grinding all together.

What other problems have you noticed in Free Roaming RPG's? And how would you adress these specific problems I have mentioned?

It is easy, make it not worth your time/effort killing people.

people in gta and saintsrow type games kill people cause they can and is easy. If they didnt make it worth your time, then people would stop doing it...

You can still have to choice, but you have to balance up yourself is it worth it?

People that play RPG's will go out of there way to be dicks, thats probably the first thing they try. I'm looking at this from a developing standpoint: how should they offer free will, while making sure the player doesn't fuck it all up?

Well as I said, in sandbox games, just make it not worth while them killing people. Look at the elderscrolls series, if you kill a civilian you get a whole army of guys after you. You have the choice of killing people or not, but it makes you not want to kill them as it just isnt worth it.
Now im not saying you should have a awhole army of over leved people coming at you, but maybe put in a mechanic which doesnt make it worth your time to kill people. Example would be is that you start getting a rap sheet which never goes away. So as you go through the game, the more non campaign illegal activities you do, the easier cops will come after you, the bigger your punishment etc. Which would make the actual campaign harder and make the game overall. Also the cops are soooo damn easy to kill, or get away from in GTA/Saintsrow so really of course you are going to act like a fool because it is so easy to get away with, they do this on purpose in those games. So also making it not so easy to kill or get away from the cops, armed forces etc this will also distract people from killing.
But like in real life you cant stop people being dicks, you just have to not make it worth it.

This is a good point, I like the answer to that. But what about games like in the Harry "cash cow" Potter, or even R*'s Bully, which is littered with repetitive mini games that are basically nesarcarry to complete in order to gain skills?

 

[Katana314]

"Free Roaming" seems to invariably come at the expense of "strong story". That's my problem. I'd rather feel railroaded by an engaging plot than be able to do whatever I want to do inside a "story" that's so weak I can't be bothered to care.

This sentence summed it up very well for me.

All the damn quests in Oblivion only involve you as "that mercenary I hired to help take care of that one problem I had". Even when there's choice involved, it's rarely engaging. Don't get me wrong, the game is fun on its own rights that could never happen in a Final Fantasy game, but it sacrifices a whole lot too.

Manually shaping the player's experience isn't always a bad thing. It means they can do a whole lot to ensure the player has a lot of fun, rather than running into boring quests or not finding the good armor.

 

[Acaroid]

[snip]

This is a good point, I like the answer to that. But what about games like in the Harry "cash cow" Potter, or even R*'s Bully, which is littered with repetitive mini games that are basically nesarcarry to complete in order to gain skills?

Yeah saintsrow2 had a similar problem with these minigame things that you needed to do to get better stuff etc.

Im not sure how it can be fixed, because mini games are not that bad of a thing aslong as they are interesting mini games! It is all about execution really and the games just didnt do it that well. Instead of having a mini game where you just do a mini game and you get a stat points or xp, you have it that your characters level is reliative to how high a level you can get in a set bunch of mini games. So this motivates you to play the game more, as your characters level is not based on how many times you played the game, but how good you are at the game. So it takes the grind out of it and motivates you to play the game. Each mini game could in away relate to your stats directly, so you could have logic puzzles to boost logic, reflex games for reflexs, stamina mini games for stamina etc etc So your chracters level is directly related to your own personal level.

That is just one idea of the top of my head that i probably stole from some game ive played at some point. Im sure there are better ways to do it though lol, just need to think about it more.

 

[Bilbo536]

Skies of Arcadia and the first Tales of Symphonia did it right (the second had it's budget slashed in a stupid move, so they removed free roam).

That removal of free roam bugged the crap out of me! Would you mind telling me what exactly caused that? I'd love to know.
OT: I believe it's been said before, but the games you mentioned are not RPGs but are action-adventure games. They have a few RPG elements perhaps, but they are not true RPGs.

 

[The_Healer]

I love RPG's.

I don't care what you say, they are good games.

[sub]But fuck Oblivion is long....[/sub]

 

[Lexodus]

Skies of Arcadia and the first Tales of Symphonia did it right (the second had it's budget slashed in a stupid move, so they removed free roam).

That removal of free roam bugged the crap out of me! Would you mind telling me what exactly caused that? I'd love to know.
OT: I believe it's been said before, but the games you mentioned are not RPGs but are action-adventure games. They have a few RPG elements perhaps, but they are not true RPGs.

I know. With the free roam, it would have been a perfect game (SoA only falls short because of the ridiculously high enemy encounter rate, although that is remedied later in the game, with a mechanic that means you never have to fight a random battle ever again if you don't want to. Still, less in the beginning would be nice). I mean, perfect. However, for some reason the budget got slashed and they took it out.