subtlefuge said:
At this point, I should just come out and say it: we're not debating anything. By that I mean that I make a point, you latch on to a single word (words that you claimed were meaningless less than 10 pages back), you deflect and justify and distract from the issue.
Helmholtz Watson said:
subtlefuge said:
I'm just pointing out that if a person is going to be so apposed to using the word rape, I see no reason why they should not also feel so strongly about the word "torture", "murder", or "kill".
Neither of you are really engaging in a debate so much as going around in circles making counter-assertions.
People can have strong reactions to almost any word. Someone whose loved one was murdered could have a very bad reaction to people using the word 'murder'.
However, rape is different in that it's something that is extremely personal. It's the actual
victim of rape who is traumatized by it. Not only that, but it is an act of one person violating another in the most intimate way possible. The real problem is that it is pretty much the most traumatic thing that can happen to a person, and thus hearing the term 'rape' tossed around casually is bound to cause more suffering than tossing around the term 'murder'.
I would say that torture is probably even worse, but there just aren't nearly as many people who are tortured so you're less likely to cause someone distress by throwing around the term.
Helmholtz Watson said:
subtlefuge said:
Joke about rape.->Rape is a joke.-> Someone gets raped.-> They don't want to be ridiculed or blamed.-> They keep quiet.
So isn't racism effected in the same way? People joke about racism all the time and I don't see people being reluctant to go to the media about how they feel they have been racially discriminated against.
The evidence for jokes causing that sort of thing is extremely flimsy. It might seem to make sense that jokes can have those effect, but there really isn't any proof that they actually do. This is the kind of argument that is used to remove speech that one finds offensive by appealing to the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" clause, i.e. that its effects are so harmful that it shouldn't be protected.
However, no one here seems to be arguing that this speech should be made illegal (and companies can limit your speech in their services however they want, using their services is a privilege, not a right).
If the argument is that people who throw around the word 'rape' casually are d-bags, then I'd say there really isn't even a need for an argument: that conclusion should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
However, I would add that it is really easy to avoid hearing these sort of things on Xbox live: just go into a party or change your settings. While one is quite right to point out that people who throw around the term 'rape' carelessly are complete assholes, it's also kind of hard to see it as an epidemic that must be stopped through drastic censorship when the people who are offended by this sort of thing already have the ability to avoid it completely.
If you know the nature of Xbox live, and you're offended by what people on Xbox live commonly say, then at that point it's kind of on you to take some simple steps to avoid the things you don't like. If someone goes out of their way to harass you, then by all means, report them. But if you get offended by a overhearing a conversation that doesn't involve you, then you should probably just mute the offenders.
Think of it this way: could someone sue the city for being offended by a KKK march while walking down a city street? No. Corporations can (and do) state in their license agreements that they are not responsible for what the other people who use the service say. When they ban people, they do it for business: they might lose customers if they didn't ban people for certain behaviors. If enough of their customers demanded that certain forms of speech be banned, then they would do it simply because their profits might suffer otherwise. They don't have any moral obligations to censor offensive speech. It's their service, and how they run it is up to them. If you don't like it, don't use it.
On the other hand, if you're going to use disgusting language that many people would find offensive, the least you could do is do it in party chat so others don't have to hear your filthiness. That's just common courtesy.
For some people it's not about the harmful effects of the speech so much as the simple fact that they don't want people using that speech
period, regardless of whether it actually offends someone in the particular instances when it is used. These people have a right to complain, but that's about all they can do. If the corporations and their customers decide to ignore their complaints, there's nothing else that can be done.
