The real problem with sexism

[DudeistBelieve]

Okay! This will be my very first post on the forums of the escapist so I figured why not start it off on a (controversial) topic that always just... Grates on my nerves.

I wish that people would grow up about sexism! The views that many women, and even many men have are just mind mindbogglingly painful!

Now hear me out, I understand the massive spur from women that have been demanding equality with men. To be completely honest I agree with the demands that a woman needs to be allowed to do what ever a guy can do, and that they shouldn't be judged based on gender.

As much as I love the idea for women to get all the equal rights that men have, this is were the problem is as well. Most women I know of will claim that they do not want to be discriminated against because they are a women, but will then hide behind their female label when something they don't want comes up. A great example of this is something that happened many times at my job, Often the girls that I work with would ask me to get something off the top shelves for them because they are a girl and I'm a guy. I know for a fact that if I saw the same girl trying to get something and I said, "Let me get that for you, I'm a guy after all" she would cry sexism on me.

What gets me even more frustrated though is any person, man or women, who will cry for equality, but then will cry sexism if a man punches a woman. If an attack was based on the fact that the target was a woman, then yes it was sexist. However if a woman is being a prick, or outright attacking someone, I think a person should throw a punch just the same way they would if the person was a man... Assuming the person would punch a man. Claiming that a person shouldn't punch a girl for no reason more than she is a girl, is just as sexist as refusing them something they want because they are a girl.

Well that's my rant for now, Discuss please!

First off...

These types of threads usually don't end well.

Anyway, gender is a state of mind blah blah blah argument that I'm glossing over.... Essentially this isn't a sexism thing, it's the acknowledgement that the average human body with a vagina is physically weaker and smaller than the average male. You're not helping them out because they have a vagina, but because you have physical advantages over them*.

Though I do sympathize to an extent... I work at the grocery store and I can't get promoted to work at the customer service desk which has always been predominantly female.... Oh but who gets demoted to Janitor after 5 years of being with the company? But I digress... At least the field of study I'm in college is predominantly female which means all those minority hiring laws are going to help me, the big bad middle class white male. Mwa ha ha ha ha ha.

Same thing applies with not hitting a woman.... I would never want to hit a girl not because of their gender but because it wouldn't be a fair fight. I wouldn't want to fight a guy smaller than me, just the same. Now if said woman was a MMA fighter, or muscle bound? That seems fair to me, and I'd probably get my ass kicked.

 

[barbzilla]

Despite the OPs ridiculous examples, he makes a valid point. First off let me say that I don't agree with sexism and I find it to be a vile archaic practice. I am aware that there are places in the world where this is a major issue, and there are even points in civilized countries where this is a major issue (pay rate is one as far as I'm concerned). The OPs point isn't about these points though, he is talking about the minor day to day issues, and I agree with him. A woman can't cry equality without regards to sexual differences, and then hide behind her sexual differences when it comes to something she doesn't want to deal with. I had a female friend who was "discussing" equality in battle with me at a bar when a fight broke out, telling me how women are just as capable fighters are men. A short hour later a fight broke out in the bar (the fight had nothing to do with us, and was unlikely to effect us at all) and her first reaction is to hide behind me.

Now I have no problems with a woman hiding behind me, but it makes her previous point seem invalid. If someone is going to have a conviction, they need to stand behind it. This is similar to someone harping on recycling and the fact that not enough people recycle their plastics that end up in landfills, then five minutes later you see them throw their soda bottle into a trash can. It is hypocrisy and you know it.

I will say the same thing I say about racism, if people want true equality then we need to stop differentiating at the higher levels first. The reason I think pay rate is such a big equality issue is because there should be no discrimination at the governing level. When you discuss jobs and pay rates, the governing faction is the corporation you work for. Same thing goes with gay marriage, the governing factors being the actual government should have no say in such a thing. After all we are all equal in the eyes of the government right? Well we are supposed to be. These things all tie in together, while we have minor differences, this should not effect things at the governing level. So stop complaining about minor issues that don't matter and start working as a team to destroy bias one block at a time.

 

[DoPo]

Would some murder cheer you up?

That is awesome. Im gonna look this upo on Youtube... as its alot more interesting than this thread...

I'll save you the trouble - here is the video:


The music is meh, but I like the video. I've even made some more GIFs out of it.

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

Spoiler: Spoiler: Click to View

 

[TheNaut131]

Edit:
Actually scratch that,ain't touching this with a 10 foot pole.

 

[aba1]

To the OP's point, and I can't disagree with him that this is an issue that does exist (though his example is dumb). At my job, whenever there is something slightly heavy to be lifted, I'm called upon. Not because the woman I work with are incapable of lifting it (they aren't). It's not because I'm particularly strong (I'm 5'7", 140 pounds, and my strength is merely above average for my size, but I have thin forearms so I actually appear pretty frail). They're also all aware I have a bad joint condition as well, so lifting heavy things puts more strain on my joints than a normal person. Despite that, they still call on me, because I'm a man. It's the same thing with going up on the ladder in the stock room. I know there are woman there capable of climbing ladders and hauling record documents, but I'm still always the one who does it. Hell, there are woman there who are taller than I am. It would make more sense for them to do it. Anyway, even if I flat out refused, I know that they would think less of me because of it, even though I'm no more obligated to do that work than the rest of them. Yet, quite hypocritically, any time some benefit is rendered upon the guys at my workplace, the woman cry sexism, despite they themselves clearly receiving treatment that could be deemed preferential. For instance, the woman are always given first pick to go home early when we're slow if they want to, and granted that request if they ask, whereas the guys are hardly ever granted permission to do so. No, I'm not skewing this situation or lying. This is straight up how it is. I genuinely like most of my co-workers (male and female), and it's not even that big of a deal to me, but it is bullshit.

That said, this really has been done to death. And even if I agree that the issue is there, I don't think this is "the real problem" with sexism. Considering my old co-worker was just recently messaging me about how the assholes at her new job are sending her dirty texts and touching her inappropriately, and HR doesn't seem to give much of a fuck, I'd say there are a lot of other very serious issues with sexism.

I think this sums up my reply really well. I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

But ya this topic has been done to death as others have said this is the sorta things where threads about sexism towards guys tend to spawn from.

 

[Berithil]

Snipity snip snip

First off, allow me to stand out and welcome you to the forums *glares at everyone else*.

Not sure if you've been a lurker before making an account or not, but let me tell you normally the Escapist is pretty friendly to newcomers.

And yes, even though I do agree with you for the most part, threads like these are considered taboo on the forums (and yet, we seem to always get the taboo topic of the month). So, as far a first thread (and post) goes, you could of done better. Sometimes, it's just safer to avoid these types of threads all together. They typically devolve into a flame war.


So, now that's out of the way, Welcome to the forums!

-Stay out of the basement

-Beware the red button

-When in doubt, Blame Kross

-Post ponies (oh, I'm sorry. Don't post ponies :3)

-Etc, etc, etc

 

[Undeadpool]

Good job blowing your first post on making a gross, broad generalization but trying to dress it up as an intellectual exercise.

I haven't known a woman who's "hidden behind her gender" since high school, so I think I've pegged your maturity level, if not age.

 

[Undeadpool]

To the OP's point, and I can't disagree with him that this is an issue that does exist (though his example is dumb). At my job, whenever there is something slightly heavy to be lifted, I'm called upon. Not because the woman I work with are incapable of lifting it (they aren't). It's not because I'm particularly strong (I'm 5'7", 140 pounds, and my strength is merely above average for my size, but I have thin forearms so I actually appear pretty frail). They're also all aware I have a bad joint condition as well, so lifting heavy things puts more strain on my joints than a normal person. Despite that, they still call on me, because I'm a man. It's the same thing with going up on the ladder in the stock room. I know there are woman there capable of climbing ladders and hauling record documents, but I'm still always the one who does it. Hell, there are woman there who are taller than I am. It would make more sense for them to do it. Anyway, even if I flat out refused, I know that they would think less of me because of it, even though I'm no more obligated to do that work than the rest of them. Yet, quite hypocritically, any time some benefit is rendered upon the guys at my workplace, the woman cry sexism, despite they themselves clearly receiving treatment that could be deemed preferential. For instance, the woman are always given first pick to go home early when we're slow if they want to, and granted that request if they ask, whereas the guys are hardly ever granted permission to do so. No, I'm not skewing this situation or lying. This is straight up how it is. I genuinely like most of my co-workers (male and female), and it's not even that big of a deal to me, but it is bullshit.

That said, this really has been done to death. And even if I agree that the issue is there, I don't think this is "the real problem" with sexism. Considering my old co-worker was just recently messaging me about how the assholes at her new job are sending her dirty texts and touching her inappropriately, and HR doesn't seem to give much of a fuck, I'd say there are a lot of other very serious issues with sexism.

I think this sums up my reply really well. I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

But ya this topic has been done to death as others have said this is the sorta things where threads about sexism towards guys tend to spawn from.

Well done completely misrepresenting what feminism is (ironically about as bad as most feminazis do). To make a long, complex issue short:

Misrepresenting feminism: WOMEN THINK THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO EVERYTHING MEN DO, EVEN OUTSIDE THEIR BIOLOGICAL LIMITATIONS!! (in this case: muscle mass)

Actual feminism: Women make excellent soldiers (and superior snipers) due to their increased tolerance for muscle pain and discomfort (among other reasons), they should be allowed to join the armed forces.

 

[Necro144]

Often the girls that I work with would ask me to get something off the top shelves for them because they are a girl and I'm a guy.

I think an example involving the lids of pickle jars would have been much more effective. Sometimes sexism isn't really a bad thing, it just works to outline the differences that do (like biologically) exists between the average man and woman (this excludes any females who've had extensive training in jar-opening).

When all is said and done, having a lady ask you to do something for them is probably a compliment to your masculine prowess, and not a reason to moan about it.
(also, "Fair Game" is not a good argument for inter-gender violence, no matter who you are)

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Often the girls that I work with would ask me to get something off the top shelves for them because they are a girl and I'm a guy. I know for a fact that if I saw the same girl trying to get something and I said, "Let me get that for you, I'm a guy after all" she would cry sexism on me.

Um... are you taller than they are? In that case, it isn't your male-ness, it's your height that causes them to ask you to get things off the top shelf.

If you are shorter than the women in question, then yes, that's just favoritism.

What gets me even more frustrated though is any person, man or women, who will cry for equality, but then will cry sexism if a man punches a woman. If an attack was based on the fact that the target was a woman, then yes it was sexist. However if a woman is being a prick, or outright attacking someone, I think a person should throw a punch just the same way they would if the person was a man... Assuming the person would punch a man. Claiming that a person shouldn't punch a girl for no reason more than she is a girl, is just as sexist as refusing them something they want because they are a girl.

Well, that's a sticker issue. Men often find punching one another to be an agreeable way to resolve differences. However, because women are physically weaker on average than men, punching has often been used as an intimidation technique by men because the women in question can't punch back effectively.

IE: Wife beating or *****-slapping.

Two guys beating on one another - that's their choice. "Mutual Combat" to use the recent super hero video as an example.

A one-way beating of a stronger person on a weaker person - that's assault. It's intimidation. And that's why it isn't acceptable. It would be just as bad as if the man in question was beating a male child. It's about someone bigger beating up someone smaller.

And yes, it is possible that the woman has martial arts training and can fight someone twice her size, but let's be realistic - that's very rare. If a man and a woman agree to a fist-fight - to mutual combat - then that's fine. Beating women - or anyone weaker than you - is disgusting and criminal.

 

[aba1]

snip

I think this sums up my reply really well. I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

But ya this topic has been done to death as others have said this is the sorta things where threads about sexism towards guys tend to spawn from.

Well done completely misrepresenting what feminism is (ironically about as bad as most feminazis do). To make a long, complex issue short:

Misrepresenting feminism: WOMEN THINK THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO EVERYTHING MEN DO, EVEN OUTSIDE THEIR BIOLOGICAL LIMITATIONS!! (in this case: muscle mass)

Actual feminism: Women make excellent soldiers (and superior snipers) due to their increased tolerance for muscle pain and discomfort (among other reasons), they should be allowed to join the armed forces.

Sorry but I think women deserve a little credit they are not so weak they cannot lift a few boxes that weigh less than 5 pounds over a couple feet. Everything I said was from personal experience in things that have happened to me. I mean I am not ridiculous and if a slight person needed help with a few 20 pound boxes I would not judge them or not help them. If something is decently heavy I get it, it might be a bit much that's cool I don't mind helping out but at the same time if you can do something yourself you really should.

 

[bz316]

The "real" problem with sexism is that there are people who think there are problems with sexism other than "it's wrong and shouldn't exist as an attitude."

 

[axlryder]

I think this sums up my reply really well. I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

But ya this topic has been done to death as others have said this is the sorta things where threads about sexism towards guys tend to spawn from.

Well done completely misrepresenting what feminism is (ironically about as bad as most feminazis do). To make a long, complex issue short:

Misrepresenting feminism: WOMEN THINK THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO EVERYTHING MEN DO, EVEN OUTSIDE THEIR BIOLOGICAL LIMITATIONS!! (in this case: muscle mass)

Actual feminism: Women make excellent soldiers (and superior snipers) due to their increased tolerance for muscle pain and discomfort (among other reasons), they should be allowed to join the armed forces.

We're not saying this is what feminism is supposed to represent. Literally neither of us even mentioned feminism or alluded to feminism. Only the OP did that. The closest we came to that is me saying "to the OPs point", which is a flimsy basis for such a rebuttal. I was establishing that there is a double standard in play here. It's also establishing that people in our workplaces are making biological assumption and allocating workloads simply based on generalizations about gender that aren't even applicable here, which is sexist. We even explicitly pointed out that it's not outside their biological limitations, and in my case likely less outside theirs than mine in the long run.

Also, what's with the mocking use of cap locks? For someone who was implying a lack of maturity in that other guy, your response certainly doesn't appear to be a bastion of maturity itself.

 

[Lieju]

I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

And I'm a woman and there have been many times when a guy has had trouble with some physical work, and declined my help. Or worse, pushed in and taken over because I'm a frail woman.
I might not be as strong as most guys, but I can do that stuff, or at least help.

But there are guys who will treat me equally, too.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I had a female friend who was "discussing" equality in battle with me at a bar when a fight broke out, telling me how women are just as capable fighters are men. A short hour later a fight broke out in the bar (the fight had nothing to do with us, and was unlikely to effect us at all) and her first reaction is to hide behind me.

Now I have no problems with a woman hiding behind me, but it makes her previous point seem invalid. If someone is going to have a conviction, they need to stand behind it. This is similar to someone harping on recycling and the fact that not enough people recycle their plastics that end up in landfills, then five minutes later you see them throw their soda bottle into a trash can. It is hypocrisy and you know it.

Why? Was she saying that she herself wanted to fight on the front lines, or felt that she could? Just because she wants women to be given the same opportunity to, doesn't mean that she wants it for herself.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

In our office we usually have our watercooler service guys who come along and bring in new bottles, but the employees are expected to change the bottles when they're empty.

Guess who changes the bottles? In my 2 years of working in this job, guess how many times I've seen a woman try and put a new bottle in? Never. Never ever. The men are simply expected to do it, period. CAN a woman do it? Of course! Put a little elbow/back into it, I'm sure almost any goddamn woman could lift ~10-15kg if she fucking tried. If there's no man around they'll just wait, or grab water from another watercooler -_-

 

[Phasmal]

I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

And I'm a woman and there have been many times when a guy has had trouble with some physical work, and declined my help. Or worse, pushed in and taken over because I'm a frail woman.
I might not be as strong as most guys, but I can do that stuff, or at least help.

But there are guys who will treat me equally, too.

Oh god I hate it when people do that.
I had a guy who used to be a friend constantly try and take my shopping bag off of me when we were walking down the street together.
The bag had a can of coke and some gum in it.
And then I got the `OH I'M JUST TRYING TO BE NICE, YOU WOMEN CAN'T MAKE UP YOUR MINDS.`
Because, you know, we're all the same person.
Needless to say, I don't talk to that dude any more.

OT: Yes, women hide behind the `female label`.
So do men.
People in general are lazy and will use any excuse they can. Doesn't mean it's okay, doesn't mean sexism isn't a problem.

 

[aba1]

I have had women ask me for help more times than I can count for things they could really do themselves but are just to lazy to do. I have also noticed that women always get preference on relaxing jobs. I used to work in as a IT assistant and the second any physical labor came up and a woman didn't want to do it I would have to drop my job to go do hers and 90% of the time it wasn't cause it was to heavy they just didn't want to and would claim it is to difficult without even attempting.

And I'm a woman and there have been many times when a guy has had trouble with some physical work, and declined my help. Or worse, pushed in and taken over because I'm a frail woman.
I might not be as strong as most guys, but I can do that stuff, or at least help.

But there are guys who will treat me equally, too.

Well if they decline your help that is their call and their loss though people just pushing in and taking over is just plain rude. What I was talking about before was of course not all women I mean that would be down right sexist I was just commenting on the abundance in this attitude. But ya like you said this is some women not all just like your issues are some guys not all.

 

[Legion]

Oh god I hate it when people do that.
I had a guy who used to be a friend constantly try and take my shopping bag off of me when we were walking down the street together.
The bag had a can of coke and some gum in it.
And then I got the `OH I'M JUST TRYING TO BE NICE, YOU WOMEN CAN'T MAKE UP YOUR MINDS.`
Because, you know, we're all the same person.
Needless to say, I don't talk to that dude any more.

You mean he just tried to take it, assuming it as too heavy? As opposed to just asking?

Obviously if it had a can of coke and gum it'd still be odd, but at least it'd just be polite.

 

[Phasmal]

You mean he just tried to take it, assuming it as too heavy? As opposed to just asking?

Obviously if it had a can of coke and gum it'd still be odd, but at least it'd just be polite.

Yep, tried to take it away from me. I don't think he thought it was heavy.
I was polite at first but when he tried another two times it just irritated me.
This guy did have a bit of a thing for me at one time and I reckon he was just trying to be 'chivalrous', but it was just a bit ridiculous to me.