The real problem with "that scene" in Man of Steel (DCCU spoilers)

[Natemans]

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.

Because like I keep saying, Superman is meant to be a better person than this. Not like an immature child and wreck his truck like its another kid's favorite toy. Also how the hell did he wreck that truck that quickly without anyone hearing or noticing it?

Fighting against bullies isn't always a good resolve. With me, I've gotten bullied, but I turned the other cheek, ignored and walked away from the fights like a real rational person would do.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.

Because like I keep saying, Superman is meant to be a better person than this. Not like an immature child and wreck his truck like its another kid's favorite toy. Also how the hell did he wreck that truck that quickly without anyone hearing or noticing it?

Fighting against bullies isn't always a good resolve. With me, I've gotten bullied, but I turned the other cheek, ignored and walked away from the fights like a real rational person would do.

Because This isn't the Superman you read in the comics, he was never conceived to be that Superman, the whole point of this Superman is to basically be a Nolanized version of Superman. The Dark Knight movies have made WB billions of dollars that they want almost all thier Superhero properties to emulate it even if it does not fit the source (a Source which lets be honest is full of alternate realities and contridictions)

Heck not even Nolan's Batman is the same Batman we knew from Comics or animation.

I mean Nolan Batman killed Ra's Al Ghul "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" dude you killed him by letting him die, if you were the classical Batman of yore you would have just catched him and turn him in to the Cops

 

[DoPo]

And in KOTOR's case you have no choice but to kill Darth Malgus.

He isn't in KOTOR. I had to look him up - he's in The Old Republic.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

And in KOTOR's case you have no choice but to kill Darth Malgus.

He isn't in KOTOR. I had to look him up - he's in The Old Republic.

Gah I confused the 2.

Darth Malak:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3d/b4/e7/3db4e7729ef149db49434f8d8430db05.jpg

Darth Malgus:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132327/2578079-darth_malgus.jpg

Does not help they both have nearly similar designs and names.

To be fair though Malgus looks badass.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I never got the outrage. He kills Zod (and his goons) in Superman II as well.

 

[CaitSeith]

I agree with the OP, but not only was it too soon, it was sooo poorly executed.

For a last resort situation, there sure were a lot of things that could have been done other than neck snapping. Those dumbshit civilians could have, you know, walked out of the way. Superman could have turned his neck the other way, considering he had the power to snap it. He could have flown Zod up, choked him into unconsciousness, hell, he could have covered his eyes with his hand.

And there's that it didn't change him in ant foreseeable way. He still kills people all the time.

Problem with the Flying Zod up Argument is that Zod is just as strong as Superman so he could have just held his weight down making it difficult for Superman to pull him up, and don't bullshit me that Superman is stupid strong in the comics because Comic Book Super is established to move planets.

Man of Steel Superman has not been showcased to do feats of stregnth that ridiculous.

You say that Zod is strong enough to resist Superman lifting him with his magic powers of a biology that's used to lower gravity (which is an explanation that is both stupid and unneeded), but we'll never know, because Superman that didn't even try. And that's the point. He does almost nothing to stop Zod. There were a shit ton of other ways to go about stopping Zod, but Supes goes for the neck snap. And that just makes him look like a dick.

Why does it make him look like a dick? Why does killing your enemy that IS Evil, makes you evil?!

Am I evil for slaying a Dragon that's burning down village, eating innocent people and sheeps and cows?

Killing the dragon doesn't make you good either; and Superman is supposed to be good.

 

[happyninja42]

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

Eh, I don't really have a problem with him killing to be honest. I think a lot of that is simply fan assumption coloring the character. Sure, for your average purse snatcher, he has no need to kill them. But a being capable of destroying a planet? Why wouldn't he if it meant saving innocent lives?

And as far as him killing Doomsday in BvS, again, I don't really have an issue with that. Seeing as he killed Doomsday in the comic too. So it's hardly out of theme for the Superman vs Doomdsay story to involve them both dying.

My issue with killing Zod was the incredibly lame scenario. This is purely an issue with editing, and direction, but those people could have easily escaped during the window Supes gave them.

No, honestly, him killing Zod is the smallest problem I have with MoS, everything else about that damn piece of shit takes WAY more precedence in my list of "things that make this movie suck"

 

[happyninja42]

I never got the outrage. He kills Zod (and his goons) in Superman II as well.

It's selective amnesia on the part of fans. They've told themselves, over decades, that Superman is This Way. And anyone that deviates from that, they lose their shit over. They ignore the times that contradict their viewpoint, and continue to proselytize their belief to the masses. Wow, it just dawned on me, how much like religious apologetics various fandoms can be.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I never got the outrage. He kills Zod (and his goons) in Superman II as well.

It's selective amnesia on the part of fans. They've told themselves, over decades, that Superman is This Way. And anyone that deviates from that, they lose their shit over. They ignore the times that contradict their viewpoint, and continue to proselytize their belief to the masses. Wow, it just dawned on me, how much like religious apologetics various fandoms can be.

And again even the Sources they claim Superman came from is also full of inconsistancies and contridictions and with various version of the same charcater:

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman

 

[Saltyk]

John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die.

This right here, you had one job in this movie Jonathan Kent and you blew it with a single word: "Maybe."

Really, the only way DC could really salvage this is if the faux-grittiness was all intentional and was all a buildup for the reveal that this was the "Kingdom Come" universe. The Flash cameo and his line about Lois maybe kinda sorta implies that.

I forgot to mention it, but there's a scene in BvS that's related to that and it really bugged me.

"Superman was never real. It was just the dream of a farmer from Kansas."​

Wait. What? Since when? When did Jonathan Kent want Clark to be Superman? He literally never gave me that impression. He wanted Clark to hide his powers. Not to use them. He never wanted Clark to be a hero or inspire people. He literally suggested Clark let kids die and wouldn't even let him save the family dog for fear it would expose him (because being the only unscathed survivor of a bus accident wouldn't arouse suspicion).

I have no faith in DC after MoS and BvS. Even if they were building up for Kingdom Come, it would probably fall on its face.

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.

Yes. He's the bad guy. The other guy may have been a jerk, but what good did Clark do? He destroyed the guy's truck. Literally no good comes of that. Now, instead of being a hero that we can relate to, he's a bully who picks on people weaker than him. He's no better than the guy in the bar. In fact, he's worse. At least we don't see the guy in the bar destroying the personal property of other people who piss him off. Cut the scene when Clark walks off and he is a hero.

It's the same as the scene in Justice League War when Wonder Woman uses her Lasso of Truth to force a guy who is protesting her to reveal that he enjoys dressing up as her in private. She's a bully using her power to embarrass a man who displeases her. Not a hero.

Well I believe Superman being like this is litirally to make him unlikable and killy becuase they are setting up Injustice universe.

Superman will be dictator of the world with the help of Darkseid because Lois died.

And that Future scene with Batman sort of proves they are setting him up to be this way.

You think they're setting up Injustice? God, that's even worse.

First off, in Injustice Superman didn't kill his enemies willy-nilly. In fact, the killing of Joker is important because of that. If they're setting up Injustice, they already failed as Superman is way too eager to kill. And, for that matter, so is Batman. How many people did Batman kill in BvS? Him standing against Superman because he is willing to kill his enemies would be hypocrisy at its finest.

Second, I don't want to see a big screen version of Injustice. Even just what I've seen of the comics is depressing and unpleasant.

Third, would you really want the Injustice Superman to be the face of Superman to the general public? He is supposed to represent the best we have to offer. Not the worst.

 

[Saltyk]

Funny part about MoS and BvS is that people get upset over Supes killing someone in the former, even though he's still doing it in the latter, and without seeming unwilling and regretful about it. And I'm not talking about Bats' dream sequence.

That African warlord he saves Lois from at the start?

If the impact of 200lbs of high-speed Man of Steel didn't kill him, then the sudden massive acceleration would, or getting pushed through a couple of walls at high speed. Either of these would turn a human being into a bag of broken bones and burst organs.

Supes killed that dude.

Oh, that bugged me. He later seems to claim that he didn't kill the dude, but that man is paste. He's paste for about seven different reasons. Which is stupid as Superman could have stopped him easily without doing that.

But if we're going to get mad about heroes in BvS killing, Batman has a way larger body count. Now, while I think Batman was the best thing in BvS, it is tainted by how many people he killed. Some of them, he even killed with gun. Guns! He literally shoots cars with guns and slams a car into another car.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Funny part about MoS and BvS is that people get upset over Supes killing someone in the former, even though he's still doing it in the latter, and without seeming unwilling and regretful about it. And I'm not talking about Bats' dream sequence.

That African warlord he saves Lois from at the start?

If the impact of 200lbs of high-speed Man of Steel didn't kill him, then the sudden massive acceleration would, or getting pushed through a couple of walls at high speed. Either of these would turn a human being into a bag of broken bones and burst organs.

Supes killed that dude.

Oh, that bugged me. He later seems to claim that he didn't kill the dude, but that man is paste. He's paste for about seven different reasons. Which is stupid as Superman could have stopped him easily without doing that.

But if we're going to get mad about heroes in BvS killing, Batman has a way larger body count. Now, while I think Batman was the best thing in BvS, it is tainted by how many people he killed. Some of them, he even killed with gun. Guns! He literally shoots cars with guns and slams a car into another car.

Batman used Guns before:

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I really didn't have a problem with Superman killing Zod in MOS. I mean for fucks sake, Zod made it pretty clear he was going to kill humans and keep killing humans.

The whole point of the movie and leading into BvS is that Superman, as a kyrpton, is a complete UNCHECKED power and how the freaks the fuck out of the more conservative people in the united states.

There was no prison, no way physically to stop Zod other than killing him.

And even if you whine "Superman would never kill", just treat it as a fucking elsewhere tale. This is a universe where Supes and Batman can kill people.

 

[Vausch]

Spoiler for Civil War

Spoiler

Batman v Superman was absolutely ridiculed for it's "Martha" scene while Civil War did not receive nearly as much flak for its "He killed my mom." scene despite the fact that both scenes were supposed to evoke the same feelings.

Um...those situations and intended emotional responses are completely different.

Spoiler

One is two guys who are fighting to the death coming to a stop because their moms both share the same name, one is a situation where a man is realising that he's standing next to the person that killed his family and another who he considered a friend that knew this and withheld the information from him. You're comparing their mom's sharing names to anger at someone he discovered KILLED his mom.

 

[DaCosta]

No, they don't. Even if they were monsters, they deserve some fair trial and locked up. The story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" questioned this morality and works as a good character study to prove why Superman is a great character.

This is the absolute worst thing about the DCEU. Just two movies in and they've already ruined so many of their great storylines.

Superman kills, so you can't do "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?".

Batman kills, so you can't do "Batman: Under the Hood".

Lex Luthor is in jail, so you can't make him president and do "Superman/Batman: Public Enemies".

They already did a half-assed rushed retelling of "The Dark Knight Returns", so they can't do that again.

They already did a half-assed rushed retelling of "The Death of Superman", compressed into the last 20min of the second movie of their franchise no less, so they can't do that again.

The whole thing is a mess.

The public does not like Superman even before Injustice because they think he's a one dimensional goody two-shoe fag that's infallable and all powerful.

Grow up.

 

[twistedmic]

Spoiler

One is two guys who are fighting to the death coming to a stop because their moms both share the same name, one is a situation where a man is realising that he's standing next to the person that killed his family and another who he considered a friend that knew this and withheld the information from him. You're comparing their mom's sharing names to anger at someone he discovered KILLED his mom.

The way I see it, if you pay attention and read subtext, there was more to the Batman v Superman scene than the surface.

Spoiler

Bruce repeatedly shows that he does not consider Superman to be a man, he acts like Superman is an alien invader and some thing that mimics humans. It even looks like as far as Bruce and Alfred are concerned Superman arrived on Earth the day before Zod showed up and wrecked up Metropolis. When Bruce/Batman finds out that Superman had a human mother and obviously grew up on Earth it throws his view of Superman out the window. In addition to that, there's a human that cares deeply for Superman (putting herself in front of Superman to block the spear) and knows him well enough to know his mother's name. That Clark's mother was also named Martha just kick-started the revelation.
Once batman realizes his mistake, and that Superman is more human than he first thought, he becomes embarrassed, then angry with himself (as I see it).

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

This is the problem I had with MoS.

Spoiler: my evidence

The most important of the two clips is the second one, and it's not even what Superman does when he "lets loose". It's at @0:38 when the collective representatives look on in horror. The day they finally feared: What would happen if Superman played by his own rules? Who would stop the God that saved them from countless insurmountable odds? A God that deigned to listen to them like their opinion mattered as much as a man who could literally punch their planet apart if he had a bad day.

That's the problem with Superman in MoS and what actually makes those clips so thrilling. Because we spent time with Superman. We know his morals. We know his limits that he self imposes. Life could be so much easier to him if he just destroyed those who oppose him. But he doesn't look at his power as the Carte Blanche to do that. He looks at his powers as a huge responsibility he must share with the world.

That fact makes me such an interesting character to me. People keep saying "Good is so boring because everyone's good". Look around you today. Really think about what would happen if any one of these perpetually triggered, "MY OPINIONS ARE UNIVERSAL FACTS" rage machines developed a tenth of Superman's abilities. Do you think they would be selfless? Really? It's not easy to be good. It's not easy to always take the high road. It's not easy to think about the world before your wants day after day, minute after minute.

And we just don't get that with the Man of Steel. We get someone confused. We get someone that we don't identify with as the hero we came for. Almost every bit of his character isn't there. Made almost weak and pathetic by "Maybe you should have let those kids die". It's like if Batman's parents were just lost at sea due to someone trying to force a hostile take over, but him still developing a 'no guns, no deaths' policy. Nothing about his background would have warranted that, but you put it there because that idea comes with the costume. That doesn't work that way. At all.

Superman was not depicted as the center of good that we know, he's not the big blue boy scout... So that's why when Superman killed Zod, it wasn't anywhere near as shocking as people wanted it to be. Because this isn't the Clark Kent that we grew up with. Almost none of his values are there. It's like watching Superboy Prime and being told it's Superman.

 

[JimB]

Funny part about Man of Steel and Batman 5 Superman: Dawn of Franchising is that people get upset over Supes killing someone in the former, even though he's still doing it in the latter, and without seeming unwilling and regretful about it.

You forget that Man of Steel sold itself on a premise of hope. All the advertising was full of inspirational quotes and images: Jor-El telling Kal-El that Kal-El could save everyone; Kal-El's face turning up into a beam of sunlight; the "On my world, it means hope" line; all that. The advertising flatly lied to us about what to expect, so the betrayal doesn't just feel like a betrayal of the character or his legacy, but of us personally. They lied to me to get my ticket money, the rotten fuckers.

Batman v. Superman: Herp of Derpadoo is at least honest. It warned us from the beginning it was going to be a joyless puddle of stale jizz drying in a motel's bath towel with its advertising, and I don't think anyone expected it to be any better than it is. It's hard to get worked up about getting exactly what you were promised.

 

[kitsunefather]

For my part, I'm less concerned with Superman killing, and more concerned with their creating a Superman who seems to hate the idea of being a hero, or helping people. With surrounding him a support circle that teach him it's wrong to out himself as different, while also telling him how much he could help people since he's different. It's tonally awful, and the story it creates feels less like Superman, and more like the short one-off story to give you the background of the alternate world Superman that the Justice League will have to stop.

The characterization of Superman in this, to me, is on par with a hypothetical scenario where they make Bruce Wayne be Batman because he's rich and bored. Because they put the Batman name in the title, he's clearly Batman, but he's so unrecognizable from anything that fans of the character know that it hits sour.