The real problem with "that scene" in Man of Steel (DCCU spoilers)

[Proto Taco]

Man of Steel confused the crap outta me because the way they structured the story made Zod look like a martyr and Superman a genocidal maniac.

I mean when he first shows up on Earth all Zod wants is his ancestor's DNA and a planet to terraform for his people to live on. He even goes out of his way to peacefully ask Superman for his ancestor's DNA first - which they make quite clear will not kill Superman - but Superman just stares him down. He takes that as a threat to his people - which most rulers would - and reacts by doing what he thinks he must to ensure his people's survival in accordance with his genetic programming. Meanwhile Superman sulks in a cell for a few hours then decides to kill Zod and all his followers and then he does it without even trying to negotiate. Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

The last scene of the movie was heartbreaking for me because Zod had literally been designed to do one thing his whole life and he'd done the best he could but was exiled for it. Then when his chance at redemption comes to truly save his people like he'd been trying to do all along he has to watch them die because a rogue kryptonian seemingly - judging by his actions - wanted to see the surviving Kryptonians dead.

The only way Man of Steel would've been a good Superman movie is if Zod had lived to run off and search for any possibly remaining remnants of his people while Superman came to terms with the genocide he'd just committed. It would even set you up for some great sequels where maybe Zod starts looking for prison ships as forgotten enclaves of surviving Kryptonians and frees some dastardly baddies to get revenge on Superman in the process. Bam, you're welcome WB.

But instead killing off your entire race is cool now I guess? Hip or edgy or something? I dunno, it all seems pretty messed up to me.

 

[kitsunefather]

Man of Steel confused the crap outta me because the way they structured the story made Zod look like a martyr and Superman a genocidal maniac.

I mean when he first shows up on Earth all Zod wants is his ancestor's DNA and a planet to terraform for his people to live on. He even goes out of his way to peacefully ask Superman for his ancestor's DNA first - which they make quite clear will not kill Superman - but Superman just stares him down. He takes that as a threat to his people - which most rulers would - and reacts by doing what he thinks he must to ensure his people's survival in accordance with his genetic programming. Meanwhile Superman sulks in a cell for a few hours then decides to kill Zod and all his followers and then he does it without even trying to negotiate. Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

The last scene of the movie was heartbreaking for me because Zod had literally been designed to do one thing his whole life and he'd done the best he could but was exiled for it. Then when his chance at redemption comes to truly save his people like he'd been trying to do all along he has to watch them die because a rogue kryptonian seemingly - judging by his actions - wanted to see the surviving Kryptonians dead.

The only way Man of Steel would've been a good Superman movie is if Zod had lived to run off and search for any possibly remaining remnants of his people while Superman came to terms with the genocide he'd just committed. It would even set you up for some great sequels where maybe Zod starts looking for prison ships as forgotten enclaves of surviving Kryptonians and frees some dastardly baddies to get revenge on Superman in the process. Bam, you're welcome WB.

But instead killing off your entire race is cool now I guess? Hip or edgy or something? I dunno, it all seems pretty messed up to me.

Someone needs to re-edit the Man of Steel movie into this movie. All it would really take is a change of music and a very slight reordering of scenes, and you're right: we're following the rise of the villain.

 

[Cicada 5]

Man of Steel confused the crap outta me because the way they structured the story made Zod look like a martyr and Superman a genocidal maniac.

I mean when he first shows up on Earth all Zod wants is his ancestor's DNA and a planet to terraform for his people to live on. He even goes out of his way to peacefully ask Superman for his ancestor's DNA first - which they make quite clear will not kill Superman - but Superman just stares him down. He takes that as a threat to his people - which most rulers would - and reacts by doing what he thinks he must to ensure his people's survival in accordance with his genetic programming. Meanwhile Superman sulks in a cell for a few hours then decides to kill Zod and all his followers and then he does it without even trying to negotiate. Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

The last scene of the movie was heartbreaking for me because Zod had literally been designed to do one thing his whole life and he'd done the best he could but was exiled for it. Then when his chance at redemption comes to truly save his people like he'd been trying to do all along he has to watch them die because a rogue kryptonian seemingly - judging by his actions - wanted to see the surviving Kryptonians dead.

The only way Man of Steel would've been a good Superman movie is if Zod had lived to run off and search for any possibly remaining remnants of his people while Superman came to terms with the genocide he'd just committed. It would even set you up for some great sequels where maybe Zod starts looking for prison ships as forgotten enclaves of surviving Kryptonians and frees some dastardly baddies to get revenge on Superman in the process. Bam, you're welcome WB.

But instead killing off your entire race is cool now I guess? Hip or edgy or something? I dunno, it all seems pretty messed up to me.

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

 

[Winnosh]

Man of Steel confused the crap outta me because the way they structured the story made Zod look like a martyr and Superman a genocidal maniac.

I mean when he first shows up on Earth all Zod wants is his ancestor's DNA and a planet to terraform for his people to live on. He even goes out of his way to peacefully ask Superman for his ancestor's DNA first - which they make quite clear will not kill Superman - but Superman just stares him down. He takes that as a threat to his people - which most rulers would - and reacts by doing what he thinks he must to ensure his people's survival in accordance with his genetic programming. Meanwhile Superman sulks in a cell for a few hours then decides to kill Zod and all his followers and then he does it without even trying to negotiate. Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

The last scene of the movie was heartbreaking for me because Zod had literally been designed to do one thing his whole life and he'd done the best he could but was exiled for it. Then when his chance at redemption comes to truly save his people like he'd been trying to do all along he has to watch them die because a rogue kryptonian seemingly - judging by his actions - wanted to see the surviving Kryptonians dead.

The only way Man of Steel would've been a good Superman movie is if Zod had lived to run off and search for any possibly remaining remnants of his people while Superman came to terms with the genocide he'd just committed. It would even set you up for some great sequels where maybe Zod starts looking for prison ships as forgotten enclaves of surviving Kryptonians and frees some dastardly baddies to get revenge on Superman in the process. Bam, you're welcome WB.

But instead killing off your entire race is cool now I guess? Hip or edgy or something? I dunno, it all seems pretty messed up to me.

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

He's not talking about the Criminals that got sent to the Phantom Zone. He's talking about the eggs on the ship that Clark torched.

 

[Cicada 5]

He's not talking about the Criminals that got sent to the Phantom Zone. He's talking about the eggs on the ship that Clark torched.

I doubt that given the wording

Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

Last I checked eggs don?t follow orders.

 

[Natemans]

Really? He couldn't save a single person while in the fight? That's stupid. The guy has super speed and he can still save those people or take the fight away from populated areas.

Zod has super speed as well. Have you ever been in a fight to the death? It?s a little hard to focus on multiple things at once. Hell, even when he took the fight into space, Zod still brought it back to Earth.
Btw, that fight in MoS is really not that different from your average super hero brawl. Very rarely are the heroes shown thinking about the civilians.

Even though they try to trust her and keep her in check not to do bad. Hell, in Civil War, when the accident in Lagos happens, she's put under house arrest by Vision

She?s put under house arrest for a completely separate incident, one that makes her look like a victim being persecuted. There is no acknowledgement of what she did in South Africa.

Hell, there were no casualties from the Hulk fight.

I?m sorry did we watch the same fight?

It gets you the electric chair? Then why the hell aren't any of the supervillains already dead in the comics with that logic?

Because the comics are a) dumb and b) an ongoing series that will never end so the villains either aren?t killed or are resurrected.

Its that last part that hits the nail on the head.

That's why these Superheroes have no kill rule, even though sometimes the villain does such horrific and diabolical things that not killing the villains is the dumbest copout thing you could ever possibly do.

Because killing them would make you no better than they are. If you resort to killing the killers, wouldn't that make you become the thing they are?

 

[Natemans]

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure I where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

Neither Killing was done with anything resembling eagerness

Not sure why you quoted me twice, and also there's no need to quote the entire post if you're only referring to one sentence in it, but anyway: "Eager" might be the wrong word. My point is that they need to establish Superman's aversion to killing more before he actually does kill somebody.

The fact that he doesn't kill anyone and actually begged Zod to stop isn't enough?

Yeah, as opposed to all of the people he fought Zod while flying through the buildings they destroyed or crushed. That and the death of Zod was pointless nor add anything to his character.

Okay watch that fight again. The damage is all caused bt Zod smashing Superman into things or throwing stuff at him. One tenth of the damage is not even Clark's fault. Failure to prevent death is not the same thing as deliberately killing somebody. Christ, Scarlet Witch set the Hulk loose on a populated area on purpose yet where was all this wailing and gnashing of teeth when she became an Avenger?

Mostly because Scarlet Witch isn't Superman. They don't have nearly the same symbolism in the public consciousness (for that matter, until that movie, Scarlet Witch probably had no symbolism in the public consciousness. No one knew who she was.) so if she is shown killing people or wrecking a city it does not have the same impact as seeing Superman do the same thing. Her being an Avenger is a way for her to make up for her mistakes, using her powers for good and to save lives, rather than destroy them.

This excuse does not fly for me. Symbolism should mean nothing when judging a character's actions.

So wait, a good point that she can't do everything is wrong? That's bullcrap. She is working with them to atone for her sins.

So you're willing to forgive her for deliberately hurting people because she's trying to atone (never mind her atonement is basically taking no responsibility and being protected from legal consequences) but not Superman who at worst fails to stop deaths?[/quo

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

Okay, we all know what people who dislike Man of Steel hates the most about the movie. Superman kills a guy, even though that's something Superman isn't ever supposed to do.

But here's the thing: Almost every iteration of Superman that I know of has either killed or tried to kill somebody at some point.

Here's what's different about MoS Superman: He kills the bad guy during his very first superhero adventure. Zack Snyder probably intended the scene to show Superman being forced by horrible circumstance to break his most cherished principle. But since we've never seen a Superman adventure I where this Superman doesn't kill, and he shows about ten seconds of angst about it, he comes off as a Superman who will kill whenever it's useful.

And then he kills the villain in BvS too, and firmly establishes himself as a Superman who kills in every movie.

That's the problem with DCCU Superman. Not that he killed a person. But that he was so damn eager to do it.

Neither Killing was done with anything resembling eagerness

Not sure why you quoted me twice, and also there's no need to quote the entire post if you're only referring to one sentence in it, but anyway: "Eager" might be the wrong word. My point is that they need to establish Superman's aversion to killing more before he actually does kill somebody.

The fact that he doesn't kill anyone and actually begged Zod to stop isn't enough?

Yeah, as opposed to all of the people he fought Zod while flying through the buildings they destroyed or crushed. That and the death of Zod was pointless nor add anything to his character.

Okay watch that fight again. The damage is all caused bt Zod smashing Superman into things or throwing stuff at him. One tenth of the damage is not even Clark's fault. Failure to prevent death is not the same thing as deliberately killing somebody. Christ, Scarlet Witch set the Hulk loose on a populated area on purpose yet where was all this wailing and gnashing of teeth when she became an Avenger?

Mostly because Scarlet Witch isn't Superman. They don't have nearly the same symbolism in the public consciousness (for that matter, until that movie, Scarlet Witch probably had no symbolism in the public consciousness. No one knew who she was.) so if she is shown killing people or wrecking a city it does not have the same impact as seeing Superman do the same thing. Her being an Avenger is a way for her to make up for her mistakes, using her powers for good and to save lives, rather than destroy them.

This excuse does not fly for me. Symbolism should mean nothing when judging a character's actions.

So wait, a good point that she can't do everything is wrong? That's bullcrap. She is working with them to atone for her sins.

So you're willing to forgive her for deliberately hurting people because she's trying to atone (never mind her atonement is basically taking no responsibility and being protected from legal consequences) but not Superman who at worst fails to stop deaths?

No, its because I'm willing to forgive a character lost in her own ways of thinking because of being guided by her own guilt. That and the Avengers are keeping under watch of her actions. As opposed to Superman who did far worse and made Metropolis into 9/11 imagery.

 

[Natemans]

Man of Steel confused the crap outta me because the way they structured the story made Zod look like a martyr and Superman a genocidal maniac.

I mean when he first shows up on Earth all Zod wants is his ancestor's DNA and a planet to terraform for his people to live on. He even goes out of his way to peacefully ask Superman for his ancestor's DNA first - which they make quite clear will not kill Superman - but Superman just stares him down. He takes that as a threat to his people - which most rulers would - and reacts by doing what he thinks he must to ensure his people's survival in accordance with his genetic programming. Meanwhile Superman sulks in a cell for a few hours then decides to kill Zod and all his followers and then he does it without even trying to negotiate. Superman kills not only Zod, but ALL of the remaining surviving Kryptonians just following orders on Zod's vessel.

The last scene of the movie was heartbreaking for me because Zod had literally been designed to do one thing his whole life and he'd done the best he could but was exiled for it. Then when his chance at redemption comes to truly save his people like he'd been trying to do all along he has to watch them die because a rogue kryptonian seemingly - judging by his actions - wanted to see the surviving Kryptonians dead.

The only way Man of Steel would've been a good Superman movie is if Zod had lived to run off and search for any possibly remaining remnants of his people while Superman came to terms with the genocide he'd just committed. It would even set you up for some great sequels where maybe Zod starts looking for prison ships as forgotten enclaves of surviving Kryptonians and frees some dastardly baddies to get revenge on Superman in the process. Bam, you're welcome WB.

But instead killing off your entire race is cool now I guess? Hip or edgy or something? I dunno, it all seems pretty messed up to me.

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

He's not talking about the Criminals that got sent to the Phantom Zone. He's talking about the eggs on the ship that Clark torched.

Dude, at this point, arguing with Agent Z is just getting tiresome.

 

[Cicada 5]

Because killing them would make you no better than they are. If you resort to killing the killers, wouldn't that make you become the thing they are?

It wouldn?t make you any worse either.
Tell me, what about cops or soldiers who kill in the line of duty? What about people who have killed in self defense or in defense of others? Are they bad people in your eyes?

No, its because I'm willing to forgive a character lost in her own ways of thinking because of being guided by her own guilt. That and the Avengers are keeping under watch of her actions. As opposed to Superman who did far worse and made Metropolis into 9/11 imagery.

Superman: Fails to contain the destruction in a city while fighting for the first time in his life against a man with far greater combat experience and growing more powerful by the second.
Scarlet Witch: Joined a terrorist organization that was so evil even the Nazis were afraid of them, allowed them to experiment on her and her brother, psychologically tortured five people and sent one of them on a destructive rampage in a city.
Yeah I can see how the latter is much more forgivable than the other.
And can we please stop acting as if Hollywood hasn?t had destructive imagery in big cities before 9/11. Hell, the Avengers had their battle in New York.

 

[Proto Taco]

snip

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

https://youtu.be/GZvsLhj5hd4

You're right, I'm sure they're all absolutely fine and certainly none of them starved to death because they weren't in stasis and on life support before being ripped into it amidst a maelstrom of heavy jagged debris.

Subtext is also important. If a leader comes to your planet and says;

"Hey bro, our people are extinct and I need the DNA they gave you to rebuild from the ashes, it won't even hurt. Then we'll find a planet to terraform."

And you respond with a constipated death glare then OF COURSE he's going to take that as a threat against his people's survival and he'll feel backed into a corner. On the other hand if Superman had said;

"Hey that's cool dude, but in return I'm gonna need you not to terraform earth for me, kay?"

THAT would have mitigated the entire disaster, saved the remainder of his race and all those humans and prevented trillions in human and kryptonian property damage. Why? Because it gave Zod a way out. If Superman had made the above trivial effort to negotiate THEN he'd be the hero. As it is he's just an angsty jerk who got millions of innocent humans and kryptonians killed with his attitude.

 

[Cicada 5]

snip

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

https://youtu.be/GZvsLhj5hd4

You're right, I'm sure they're all absolutely fine and certainly none of them starved to death because they weren't in stasis and on life support before being ripped into it amidst a maelstrom of heavy jagged debris.

Subtext is also important. If a leader comes to your planet and says;

"Hey bro, our people are extinct and I need the DNA they gave you to rebuild from the ashes, it won't even hurt. Then we'll find a planet to terraform."

And you respond with a constipated death glare then OF COURSE he's going to take that as a threat against his people's survival and he'll feel backed into a corner. On the other hand if Superman had said;

"Hey that's cool dude, but in return I'm gonna need you not to terraform earth for me, kay?"

THAT would have mitigated the entire disaster, saved the remainder of his race and all those humans and prevented trillions in human and kryptonian property damage. Why? Because it gave Zod a way out. If Superman had made the above trivial effort to negotiate THEN he'd be the hero. As it is he's just an angsty jerk who got millions of innocent humans and kryptonians killed with his attitude.

Yeah because Zod punishing an entire race because of one guy's perceived slight against him is truly the signs of him being a noble and rational leader and not an unstable man child who has no business running a lemonade stand let alone an entire planet.

This was the sequence of events: Zod arrives on Earth and demands Clark turn himself over to him. Clark goes to the military who escort him to the meeting with Zod. Clark is brought aboard Zod's ship and his exposure to the artifical Kryptonian atmosphere causes him to fall ill and pass out (thanks for the head's up Zoddie). While Supes as alseep, Zod uses some machine to communicate with him and reveal he plans to wipeout Earth to restore Krypton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG-fSjtlgt4

At no point does Superman react with anything even resembling hostility until Zod reveals he plans on committing genocide. No matter how much you try to twist what happens on screen, Zod is the aggressor here NOT Clark.

As for the other Kryptonians, they survived banishment to the Phantom Zone before and their powers give them an even greater advantage. Not that I have much pity for assholes who try to wipe out other species on the command of a mad man on a power trip.

 

[Proto Taco]

Yeah because Zod punishing an entire race because of one guy's perceived slight against him is truly the signs of him being a noble and rational leader and not an unstable man child who has no business running a lemonade stand let alone an entire planet.

This was the sequence of events: Zod arrives on Earth and demands Clark turn himself over to him. Clark goes to the military who escort him to the meeting with Zod. Clark is brought aboard Zod's ship and his exposure to the artifical Kryptonian atmosphere causes him to fall ill and pass out (thanks for the head's up Zoddie). While Supes as alseep, Zod uses some machine to communicate with him and reveal he plans to wipeout Earth to restore Krypton.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG-fSjtlgt4

At no point does Superman react with anything even resembling hostility until Zod reveals he plans on committing genocide. No matter how much you try to twist what happens on screen, Zod is the aggressor here NOT Clark.

As for the other Kryptonians, they survived banishment to the Phantom Zone before and their powers give them an even greater advantage. Not that I have much pity for assholes who try to wipe out other species on the command of a mad man on a power trip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXvGyZlrTjE

"This is a cause for celebration, not conflict."

And they gave Lois a breather to keep her safe. You're right, they're real belligerent manchildren. The decent, moral thing for them to do in the Schnyderverse is to shoot Lois and punch Clark in the face when they first meet.

It's also not at all unheard of for diplomatic entities to seek audience before discussing anything of great depth with those on the other side of the fence. Given Zod's military programming and how little he knows of Earth and its customs it also makes a great deal of sense he'd seek out Clark first and be more demanding in his terms.

What's more unbelievable is that after listening to pre-programmed messages left by the father he never knew Clark decides Zod is the real villain and starts ripping the ship apart. As for the much lauded dream sequence;

https://youtu.be/iG-fSjtlgt4

Clark had every opportunity there to negotiate a peaceful resolution, to suggest a better way. But instead he just refuses to help. Well Zod is trying to save his people so if Clark offers no alternative of course he's going to go with plan A because his people are counting on him to do something. Zod doesn't even seem to be particularly happy that he thinks Earth has to die. All Clark would've had to say is;

"Hey bro, we got this really great planet called Mars, I think you'd be right at home there and Earth could maybe help ya rebuild too if ya want? It'd be a pretty sweet gig, just promise to leave the Earth alone and we'll brofist on it, I'll even throw in the codex..."

It's also made quite clear in that clip that without the stasis equipment the kryptonians would starve to death. So all those kryptonians so innocently banished to the Phantom Zone were either killed by the explosion or starved to death. Zod got off easy by comparison.

So while the Clark Kent of Man of Steel isn't a monster, he's certainly an idiot who got millions of people and the remainder of his race killed.

 

[Cicada 5]

"This is a cause for celebration, not conflict."

?Unless you?re a human, in which case sucks to be you.?

And they gave Lois a breather to keep her safe.

Yeah and what does that prove? It?s not uncommon for James Bond villains to treat him to dinner and even give him a tour of their evil lair. They still try to kill him after wards and take over the world.

It's also not at all unheard of for diplomatic entities to seek audience before discussing anything of great depth with those on the other side of the fence. Given Zod's military programming and how little he knows of Earth and its customs it also makes a great deal of sense he'd seek out Clark first and be more demanding in his terms.

Except Clark is not a politician or representative of Earth. He?s just a guy who was sent to Earth against his will and only wants to use his powers to help people as best as he can. He does not speak for the people of Earth and should not have been the one Zod came to. If he?d brought an actual representative they?d have had the same reaction.

What's more unbelievable is that after listening to pre-programmed messages left by the father he never knew Clark decides Zod is the real villain and starts ripping the ship apart.

I think the reveal that Zod was going commit genocide without a second thought kind of convinced him

As for the much lauded dream sequence;


https://youtu.be/iG-fSjtlgt4

Clark had every opportunity there to negotiate a peaceful resolution, to suggest a better way. But instead he just refuses to help. Well Zod is trying to save his people so if Clark offers no alternative of course he's going to go with plan A because his people are counting on him to do something. Zod doesn't even seem to be particularly happy that he thinks Earth has to die. All Clark would've had to say is;

"Hey bro, we got this really great planet called Mars, I think you'd be right at home there and Earth could maybe help ya rebuild too if ya want? It'd be a pretty sweet gig, just promise to leave the Earth alone and we'll brofist on it, I'll even throw in the codex..."

Maybe you should be wondering why Zod himself didn?t think to choose to terraform Mars (assuming the Martians don?t exist in this universe) or some other planet that didn?t have life that would be wiped out. It is not Clark?s job to suggest peaceful solutions when such peaceful solutions should be obvious, ?bro?. Zod should have simply asked for the Codex and left Earth alone. He is the one who made an enemy where he did not need to just out of petty revenge against Jor-El.
There was no opportunity for negotiations because Zow was not interested in negotiations. It?s his way or the high way. This is established on his first scene with Krypton where in the face of extinction he?s still obsessed with conquest.

It's also made quite clear in that clip that without the stasis equipment the kryptonians would starve to death. So all those kryptonians so innocently banished to the Phantom Zone were either killed by the explosion or starved to death. Zod got off easy by comparison.

Excuse me as I wipe away the invisible tears for attempted murderers.

So while the Clark Kent of Man of Steel isn't a monster, he's certainly an idiot who got millions of people and the remainder of his race killed.

I think you misspelled Zod.

 

[kitsunefather]

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

Maybe I'm misremembering this, it's been a while, but didn't they turn Clark's baby-ship into a bomb, and blow the Kryptonian ship up? I don't remember them saying, anywhere, that they were sending them to the Phantom Zone.

 

[Cicada 5]

So you somehow managed to miss the that Zod was going to wipe out Earth even after Superman surrendered to him before the fight on Earth? I cannot imagine how you watched this movie with open eyes and ears and came away thinking that Superman was the instigator of the conflict.
Oh and Supes didn?t kill the Kryptonians on Zod?s vessel. They were sent to the Phantom Zone.

Maybe I'm misremembering this, it's been a while, but didn't they turn Clark's baby-ship into a bomb, and blow the Kryptonian ship up? I don't remember them saying, anywhere, that they were sending them to the Phantom Zone.

Clark's ship contained a Phantom Drive they used to send them back into the Phantom Zone.

 

[Cicada 5]

My problem with that scene is not really that he killed Zod, but that they failed to build on Superman as a character that is against killing or against someone being killed in front of him. There is also very little buildup to Clark and Zod bonding for any other reason than Zod being from a planet Clark only heard stories about. There is no indication that Clark has some sort of nostalgia for Krypton, which would justify him being reluctant to destroy the codex or kill Zod. So, when Zod threatens to kill the family (with the dumbest Goldfinger trap copy ever) and Clark is forced to kill him instead, there is nothing in the movie that begets the angsty reaction that follows.

After a fight were hundreds of people were killed as collateral (and yes, he dragged Zod through the side of buildings, and dodged exploding trucks instead of catching them, so it is not like at least some of the deaths weren't caused/couldn't have been prevented by him) and after trying to kill Zod and his minions for half a movie (he dragged a depowered Zod through dozens of miles, punching him in the face all the way, clearly with murdering intent), they actually established Clark as someone that is not afraid of being brutal or reckless to protect the ones he cares about. And that is fine, if that is what they wanted to portrait, but then the neck breaking reaction feels unearned. My problem is not with "the murder" (although I think the setup is pretty contrived), but with the crying that followed.

Tackling Zod doesn't mean he was trying to kill him or by your logic every version of Superman who tackled his enemies is an attempted killer.

He dragged Zod through one building's side which isn't enough to collapse it and dodging something thrown at you does not a killer make nor is it his fault.

 

[Natemans]

So I never even made it to that scene. I stopped watching Man of Steel way before that scene.

No, Man of Steel is a bad movie. Maybe worse than BvS, which at least had a few scenes that I legitimately liked. MoS didn't have a single scene that I liked.

Oh, it had a scene that was almost amazing. It was almost one of the best Superman scenes I've ever seen. We had Clark in a bar. He encounters a man who is basically just a bully. And for a moment Clark is tempted to put the man in his place, but he doesn't and simply walks away. And the scene was great. But then the movie kept on going. And we see that Superman had crucified the man's truck. And now we know that the real bully of the scene was Clark. He didn't walk away because he is a good person. He walked away because he couldn't act without killing the guy, so instead he took it out on his truck. Seriously, fuck this scene.

And there was not a single moment that could save the movie after that. But it only got worse. John Kent telling him that maybe he should have let kids die. John Kent sacrificing himself to "protect" Clark. And don't even get me started on the bad CGI that was used in the Smallville fight scene. You ever wonder why people pointed out all the obvious advertisements? Because their attention was drawn to those as the rest of the scene was a Goddamn cartoon. I would have believed Goku was there before Superman, and Goku is an actual animated character!

Incidentally, the Smallville fight bored me so much, I stopped watching the movie after that. I know the rest through reputation and videos I've seen. I didn't miss anything.

No, Superman didn't have to kill Zod. And there was no meaning in the act. Superman was making out with Lois moments later. And BvS didn't even try to capitalize on that idea (even Nostalgia Critic pointed that out).

Oh, and speaking of Superman making out with Lois. Yeah, that happened in the devastated Metropolis. Where buildings were rubble. And you just know there were people dead and dying around them. People crying for help in the rubble. People Superman could hear while he kissed Lois. Superman is no hero. Man of Steel did nothing to make him a hero. It merely claimed the "S" stood for hope. It used Jesus imagery all over the place, but who did Superman save?

Man of Steel is a terrible movie. And thus far the DCCU has only lived up to that reputation.

Really Superman is that badguy in that Bar scene?

I hate this logic that enacted retribution against the bully makes you the bully. It pisses me off that when the victim acts against their abuser, the victim gets in trobule.